Discussion: SI card

I checked the previous events' results - if they're using SI they're not reporting it. No splits, no SI card #s.

I asked they said results/splits would be on Eventor tomorrow

Righto - will believe it when I see it. :)

We don't use SI because the likelihood of having controls pinched is not worth the risk. Plus it's meant to be a simple to run event - can effectively have an entire event run by two people - and SI makes it not so (e.g. set up of event in OE; computer operator required at each event; entries take longer - this has been denied but check out the queue speed at the caravan at any given bush event versus the queue at Metro for the facts).

likelihood of them being pinched would be the same and given how many more metro events sydney runs one would say comparatively higher odds yet not stopping them. Also having a distributed start time seems to mean no ques on the weekend.

The numbers of competitors is smaller than in Perth - Perth had 81 in 3 categories Sydney had 55 in 15 categories.

I am not familiar enough with the technology to know what the process is but I am sure it could be streamlined. Like by a metro season pass and keep the same SI (if you hire) for the season so when you turn up you just pick up the si card and your auto registered. Ditto members with SI cards. alot of that admin work could be done via eventor and its just cash collection and si distribution on the day.

Maybe its just more Bryce crazy talk.

I guess we're just not Sydney. Personally I prefer the mass start format that Perth uses. Melbourne is similar to us with mass start, collect X number for your course but they also have a 'power walkers' category which is a score course, 1hr 5min time limit. They don't record times though, just finishing order, to make it simple for results (also no colour map and really dumbed down makes map production easier than what we use but less inviting). No presos after makes it a bit weird 'Tash, what happens now - do we just leave???'

There's been talk of using Eventor for pre-entry but if it became mandatory, you'd lose half your numbers.

I think you'll find we had 81 competitors in 10 categories (3 courses) on the weekend.

Sydney midweek events are much bigger, 150-250 competitors, all done on SI but spread over a few hours.

I'll find out on Wednesday when double bay breaks me.

Hey Brooner do you know who the person was who uploaded the results from yesterday's event by any chance?

Also tricky not suggesting enforcing a pre rego - I'm suggesting a once off season rego and also allowing pre rego for ppl who want it.

Btw I'm not suggesting ditching the metro format in just saying that the micro rogaine format can be done and works well ;) where as previously I mentioned it for Perth and was told too hard can't be done.

There is definitely ways to make rego easier using SI - we only use the heavyweight OE software because no one's ever had the combination of time, motivation and access to gear to experiment with the other options.

Don't know about the 'too hard' bit for rogaine time format but I imagine OAWA will try anything to differentiate itself from WARA's "novelty" event ;-)

The Melbourne series as I mentioned uses both within the same event with different score values for control ranges (e.g. 1-5 worth 20 points; 6-10 worth 30 points, etc).

wonder which one is more popular.

Varies, the score event gets about 1/3 of the field with the rest spread amongst the four or five other courses. There's no even spread amongst the others either - one of the events I did, the A course got the lowest number (over the B, C and D courses) but results on the Wednesday night had the A course by far the most popular.

interesting - I still wonder if it would be easy enough to setup at the Foot-o series having the score event format run concurrently - it sounds feasible!

Ha, we only just culled the number of series' awards and now you want to increase it!

The thought of 'score' sounds more fun - but makes me fear being an organiser. Results would mean checking every single card and not a case of first over the line... Burnout. Unless only a few events with super keen and commited organisers.

when did i say anything about awards - I was just asking for a new format :)

Tooms - dump output into excel - sort by score - job done.

...which brings SI back into it again...

Probably Ron Pallas, he does their SI stuff normally, imagine it'll be same again on Wednesday.

Bigfoot have been doing pre registration using eventor, as well as doing registration on the day using your SI stick rather than bits of paper, which Uringa also did yesterday.

Thanks Brooner, Paul - there's your answer for Eventor/TBT haha :P

O well - I guess I will find out on Wednesday if the process works for more people than Perth :)

Bryce I also think we should be using SI for Metro events, but it would depend on the majority of people pre-entering in Eventor (but not necessarily paying in Eventor).

I seem to remember that your micro-rogaine proposal was for bush events, and it was shouted down (if they're the right words) mainly because we already have 6-8 courses and a heavy setter/organiser/operator workload.

It's possible to have score as an option for Metro, but it would spread the competition element. I think 3 courses for around 100 people gives good competition, if there were also 3 score courses (or even 1) there's be less competition in all 4 or 6 classes. Also, what Tooms said - wouldn't work with manual punching as too difficult to check. Could be done with SI though - but again, more work setting it up in the computer.

Also [ :-) ] what's the point of a score event when the people who want one come back way over time and score minus whatever?

Bryce I also think we should be using SI for Metro events, but it would depend on the majority of people pre-entering in Eventor

Takes forever to enter that many people into OE, especially with a half hour entry window pre-event.

See my previous comment - don't use OE.

Probably unlikely any of the Nomads (who are meant to be running the Metro Series) will have the time, motivation or access to gear to experiment with the other options :-) Heck we struggled to get course setters again this year, other than those selfish people who took multiple events to set.

Not saying I wouldn't like to see SI at Metro, just that it would take commitment to implement (plus more than one brick at the close in controls). Plus it'll quickly weed out those people who don't visit enough controls.

Also Richard will forget how many he went to since he can't operate his GPS device to tell him, which leads to the other matter of counting your controls... (I can see how this wouldn't matter so much for a 45 minute score event)

What simplified software / set-ups are being used elsewhere Juffy? I know I've read about clubs etc trialling 'training' packages in the past, I think even the venerable Simmo has suggested it before. ADHOC will be applying for grants left right and centre to try and simplify pro-looking events, suggestions about ways to clothe SI would be great.

There are other systems than OE (and some of them are freeware) which offer an easier interface, including some where you don't have to enter before you run, as the software picks up your details when you download at the finish. Is there a volunteer to take this on?

Payment for the majority with their own SI card could be by season ticket. For enter on the day we'd need someone to take their rego card and money and give them an SI card. If there wasn't time to enter their details it could be done at home after the event.

Tooms I've emailed you links to SIME, SI Config and OR. There's also one called Geco.

Do members who set multiple events get discounts on season tickets :-)

So the process tonight was super quick - I walked up to desk - you sign your name that youve read a disclaimer - they take your money on that same desk and if you need an SI give it too you there too. that step took all of about 20s. Then go to the next table where you punch your SI card, if its your own SI card they told me it recognises you and they just select your category and job done. because I hired they needed to enter my name. After entering Bryce - a list of Bryce's appears they clicked my full name and all the details I had entered on Sunday where retained. They then selected my course and job done. This took maybe 20s too.

Feels probably as streamlined as the metro paper version tbh.

40 seconds each ends up putting it pretty fine when the vast majority of your 100+ crowd is registering in a half hour window for a mass start...

How do we manage to shove that many people through in that space of time anyway? I guess all we do is take money and give over the punch card and let the registrant do everything else themselves.

Yup. Here's my $10 and my rego card that I filled out at a different table so I wasn't in anyone's way. Ooh, I'm done.

@Bryce - it may well be a very close run thing with the right computer system, especially if there are mostly members / previous participants competing.

From my experience of having organised this sort of race from mid 1990's onwards (yes, I was paid to run the whole Healthway Be Active Super Summer Series of Orienteering - what a pain in the butt that name was back when I was - at uni. 8 events, nice to get some pocket money, but not worth quitting uni over) though somewhat sporadically I get why some people want SI and computer entry etc, but paper cards on a string and no computer set-up is so easy and I doubt I could be bothered trying to learn a different system to run what is meant to be a simple, minimum organisation event.
People who are more computer literate than myself may well feel differently.

Give it to Sten then - Craig has too many orienteering trophies already :)

Oops wrong thread ;-)

Yeah results on a string ftw!

As I tried to say earlier, almost no registration would be needed, the SI downloads at the end of the race would do it automatically. Only people without their own SI would need to register, and then only once if system is set up to give them the same SI for the season. Payment could be by Series prepayment, or (heaven forbid, we can't trust orienteers!) an honour system. So in fact SI would make our simple minimum org events even simpler, in fact almost no organisation as far as rego is concerned.

So Fletch, are you going to switch clubs now? (To ADHOC - isn't Albany closer to Gero than Bunbury - in spirit anyway?)

Melbourne runs their events under an honour payment system. However I do know of a certain WA orienteer who just hangs around at the start of Metro events to grab a map without registering. One person ruins it for everyone else...

So no punchcard, no result, but a free race? What a plonker.

Yeah I can't remember who it was though. I don't think it happens anymore.

personally I like the idea of a season rego upfront and you either have a SI card provided to you at a slightly additional cost or use your own. and as simmo said when the person punches at end let the system fill do the rest. Sounds awesome - pretty much means come along, show your pre rego card, grab a map and go run your race - I also prefer the start whenever approach it allows for more time flexibility.

The only addition to the above is rego on the day or non season registers - which can follow the process as above, pay cash, get SI card, go punch SI and give name/class and then go run.

Pretty straight forward. #resistance_to_change ive run into it before...

Why change what works already? I still prefer mass start otherwise you end up like the bush season where people come and go at whatever time and there's less socialising.

Because the SI bricks bring with them split times, easier resulting, more analysis, lower cost and integration with a system o has paid for?

At no real extra effort or cost - formats debatable the system is really what's in question

The real question should be why not - and all the answers so far have viable solutions and hence go back to your sentiment above and resistance to change

Really? I already said I'd be happy to have SI but the present system works. I would prefer a convincing reason to make a change worthwhile. 'Resistance to change' is a lame argument towards wanting to enforce a change. "I hear those WA hicks are resistant to changing their socks because they think their current ones are better".

Ooh split times for a scatter event - how exciting! I can compare to... no-one.

Lower cost? Are you comparing the price of a punch card to the potential loss of an SI brick or an SI stick? Plus it's already been determined that OE is not the preferred system for this type of event if that's the 'paid for' system you're referring to.

tRicky the big advantage of using SI is results production, which under the present system needs manual input by a dedicated volunteer for the whole series, often doesn't capture names or group numbers, and is open to manipulation or downright cheating.

Bryce a mass start suits the Metro format where we want to get the events over and done with in less than a couple of hours. People arriving late can still be catered for, but their start time has to be the mass start time. Also, as tRicky says, we'd need to change from OE, but possibly a freeware system might do what we want.

At this stage I'm not planning to be involved in Metro co-ordination next year. Maybe Tooms will pick up the SI proposal for Albany and run with it. I think SWOT might use it for their street events, as they are looking at purchasing SI bricks with their STSW profits. Perth could be left languishing behind.

Yeah - format doesnt bother me as much as getting better technology.

Actually using the splits TBT could dynamically recreate the map and then you could compare against anyone who has uploaded a map - and if Paul gets really fancy (which I am sure he would) TBT could determine common legs between runners and show you the splits. So yes there would be increased analytics available for the competitors.

But as Simmo pointed out the main benefit is resulting and resulting in a timely manner.

Oh and the system I was refering too was Eventor - I would have expected that O nationally would be doing there best for everyone to utilize this system to the upmost since they have it and its been invested in. Its certainly not being used well for the results for metro.

As for the OE software - I am not sure what the sydney guys use but it clearly works so I am sure a friendly phone call could find that out and sort out that problem. I seem to recall a mtbo score event at wellington dam - so the current system can obviously do it - maybe its just hard to setup?

I don't like it.
That was Pauline Hanson - I'm not sure what I don't like!
I do like the idea of 'proper' results.
I do like tRicky's comments re the aint broke, don't fix it.
I do worry about the cost of a vandalised SI station, and the sheer human error involved in returning SI sticks post-event from casuals.
I love the idea of SI working smoothly, it really would be good for the event day 'experience', and worth addressing the problems to try it.
I'm scared by the further prospect of making it sooo much harder to find volunteers to organise - as like it or not, adding computing requires computer savvy people, and not only that, software savvy people. Things usually go wrong, easily fixed for Dalto, Juffy, Brycec, Simmo, Craig - but not for the vast majority. Until the system/software is failsafe, there will always need to be a boffin at every event to provide the top experience we'd all like to see.
Pay them. Oh, deja vu! Swoon.

LOL.

We used OE2003 for the MTBO event but I gave all 50 attendees two hours to register! People still registered late.

Once I figured out how to allocate points it was okay to use but that was also a score event, not a 'get this many controls as fast as you can' event.

SI would also fix the problem of inattentive time keepers when someone pushes past in the finish chute ;-) but then you get certain types who go off and chat for an hour before donwloading.

yes I am not sure the system they use here but controls 1-10 = 10 points 11-20, 20 points... so on.

So they probably have the program configured and ready to go so they don't need to change it each time.

Yeah our format varies from week to week with number of controls required. Anyway, may be worth investigating. Thanks for volunteering.

Programming either scatter or score events are equally straightforward in OE, but possibly likely to be even easier in other software.

We are looking at opening Metro events for pre-entry in Eventor, but primarily so that newcomers linking to the event from Wayne's promotion on other websites (eg Running Calendar can enter directly. Wayne figures that if they've entered and paid they are more likely to turn up. There'd be little point in members entering through Eventor unless by preference. It would however make more sense for members to pre-enter if we were using SI.

Can I pre-enter with a prepaid card?

@ tRicky - I remember your one person who ruins it for everyone ;)
@simmo - I won't need to decide on a club until just before the first State Champs event next year in all likelihood

...you're...

No - it wasn't meant as an insult. The person in question was much older than you.

Oops.

Trigg was an event where I saw that in action once, I think.