Hi,
I tried finding information such as schedule of races and course parameters on the OCIN website, but can't find anything. Can someone point me to where these details are?
Thank you! I am looking forward to racing in Kentucky!
The Flying Pig webpage typically does not go live until sometime in January.
At least to know the schedule of races would be nice well in advance, tickets are for sale (for air travel)
I'll try to get some basics up soon. The sprint is planned to be Friday afternoon at Morehead State University.
What is the preference for middle and long between Sat and Sun? Ideally we'd like to do the middle before the long, but that means late departures Sunday.
One pro of doing the middle on Sat and long on Sun is mainly physical - how much does that matter, especially to team and junior team trials participants? The other pro of that order is that the middle terrain is pretty much a subset of the long. Doing the middle first, it's all new for the middle - doing the long first, you'll have seen that part of the map and some of the terrain. So from an unfamiliar terrain perspective, middle-long is a better order than the reverse.
The big negative of doing the long on Sunday is the longer start window (longer start interval), and longer time to complete courses, meaning less people stick around for spectating and awards, and you get a late start on the trip home. And remember that if you are doing team selection races, you won't be able to request a special / early start time.
Anyway, we are interested in what people have to say about the S-M-L order or S-L-M. I suppose it would also be possible to do M-L-S, how would people feel about that? That would mean running sprint on the last day after running middle and long, but with a shorter start window, it gets everybody on the way home sooner. But it would mean habing to arrive a bit earlier Friday for the middle. The sprint venue is probably a half hour closer to most airports than the M-L venue.
Closest airports are Lexington KY and Charleston WV. Youll want to allow close to 3 hours for drive and parking for Cincinnati or Louisville airports.
Personally, I think any order works. The traditional order is S-M-L but the team trials last year and recent NAOC were M-L-S and the US champs this year were S-L-M.
The
MLS Champs are tomorrow!
Long Saturday,
Middle Sunday morning
urban sprint could be done @ night either day, I don't care
I prefer the long on Saturday. Much easier from a travel perspective. Athletes need to be able to race whatever is put before them, that needn't be a consideration.
I prefer the S/M/L format but I am only a 2 hour drive away. The problem is that you won't get an agreement on any order. Could the Sprint be done on Saturday late and skip Friday?
For team trials purposes, I strongly prefer having each event on a separate day. While there are times when you have to race twice in one day (e.g. two sprints), I can't think of a situation besides a US A-Meet National Competition to run both a middle and a sprint.
Two events on the same day (middle and sprint) is definitely not under consideration. Besides athlete considerations, the distance between the venues would make it logistically difficult for the organizers.
I think SML is the norm for good reason. The fact that the middle, which typically features the most technical nav is on the long map is, in my mind a very salient point, especially since these are new maps. That said, I'll be there either way and I'm sure OCIN will make it all work as they always do.
I lean toward SML from a pure-competition perspective - but given the varied opinions on this, incl. competitors who want different orders due to travel-convenience, I'd suggest that organizer convenience/preference can certainly pick their favorite option.
Good you put it out here though - so we can all see the varied opinions - such that when you do pick one, a link to this thread can quell the flames.
If the middle and long are on the same terrain, but unseen terrain means middle will be more of a technical challenge, then that's a good argument for M first. But I'd probably come down on the side of L then M, just from travel perspective...
Not a strong preference, but SML I guess.
I also don't have too strong of a preference, but I think I'd prefer SML purely for the competition perspective. There are often longs on Sundays and for the people living in the US that have to travel the farthest (the northwest), at least the time change works in their favor when heading home. I'm not sure if ending a bit earlier would be enough to help the people heading back to Europe.
In preference order, I prefer:
1. SML -- easiest physiologically to go from fast to slow running demands; middle before long is better for affording terrain unfamiliarity
2. MLS -- keeps terrain unfamiliarity for middle, but makes the sprint into an endurance event: who has the legs after two hard days of racing? Maybe not so bad for team trails, given three sprints in 24 hours at WOC 2015
3. SLM -- keeps the sprint first for better emphasis on top-speed versus endurance; affords a shorter final day to ease travel schedules
4. MSL -- keeps terrain unfamiliarity for middle but puts the shortest event (Sprint) on the day with the most time (Saturday)
I don't have a strongly held opinion about one event order being much better than another. I think travel logistics should be one of the last considerations, and the technical and physiological considerations should be paramount, at least for championship and team trials races. Simply having the event on a weekend is 90% of what is important with regard to scheduling. Having an earlier start window for the Long (if on Sunday) is also helpful and legit.
I know from reading Attackpoint that some people really don't feel they can take a vacation day (or two) for competitions, but that is a matter of personal circumstance and priority. Since this is the most important domestic race weekend of the year, I think most people who care will find a way to make it fit into their schedules.
My vote is in line with everything ebone wrote above.
For what it's worth, for me personally the order of events would make zero difference in whether I would attend or in my travel arrangements.
My opinion should not be given too much weight, but my feeling is that this level of terrain unfamiliarity is an overrated factor (as opposed to terrain unfamiliarity in the sense of using a map that some have competed on many times and others not at all). That would point toward SLM.
a vacation day (or two)
One is required, another one, Thursday, is prudent; I could not making the NAOC Middle on Saturday because of a single cancelled flight very early on Friday morning. The request I have is for it not be three. If I take Thursday and Friday off, I better show up at (real) work on Monday. Cincinnati/Kentucky are far enough west that it's almost not a concern, but for an even in New England and more east, or eastern Canada, there can be a problem if I have one of the last Long starts on Sunday.
I don't remember any complaining about the last 3 NAOCs being MLS, nor about the 2014 WOC Team Trials / JWOC Selection Races.
For best performance SML is the best format, but since all athletes will have to run all races (team trials), it makes little difference - the order of races. Sprint definitely has to be on a travel day, first or last.
My legs vote for SML. I feel fresh at each start. With SLM, the Sunday race is an exercise in overcoming soreness. This is more of a factor if the Long on Saturday is at or above the 4% climb guideline. Thank goodness that has never happened at an OCIN meet!
ebone, the WOC sprint qual has been moved, so now it's three sprints in 48 hours.
Thanks for all the comments on this thread. We had a staff meeting tonight and due to staff, site, and logistical considerations, we are pretty firm on S-L-M. I know that's not optimal for everybody but the logistics dictate that the Morehead Sprint remain on Friday. We also looked at the middle / long issue with both course setters and at this point they have no terrain overlap and are anticipating that no terrain overlap is needed. Thanks again for great input!
Mike, what will the start window be for the sprint on Friday?
To add to what Mike said, it is a long drive back to Cincinnati Airport. Google says 90 minutes to Charleston, WV, but I'm not sure how viable that airport is for most competitors. Google says 2:20 to CVG, but I'm thinking that is very sporty---I'll check it myself, and ask other OCIN volunteers to do the same. To get back to Cincinnati by leaving the park and travelling north, you'll need maps or an actual GPS device that doesn't require cell service. Don't count on cell service all the way. The park itself has decent service at least with Verizon. The way I usually go has a low bridge that might be covered with water after storms---there are other routes that are safer but a little longer. The main highway, KY 9, which is also called the Alexandria-Ashland Highway (the double-A highway), is a really bad place to try to make up time by speeding. It's a wide two-lane road, so passing is usually possible, but it's heavily enforced. At night, you have to worry about deer. There is a wide-left interstate route, I-64W to I-75N, but it's 40 miles further, but just a few minutes longer in time. What I do in daylight (from the park toward Cincinnati) is get to Maysville on the AA, and then take 50 on the Ohio side or
Kentucky Route 8 (the
Mary Ingles Highway) on the Kentucky side. It's slower, but you do get some cool river views.
I saw a lot of votes for SML. I normally prefer that, but for this location, I really think SLM is a huge benefit logistically. And if we get a large field, the Long start window will be very long, and it's going to be very stressful making flights.
@ Boris, we still need to work out some details with the university, and I want to be there on a couple Friday afternoons to check traffic flow issues. I would expect a 2-5 start window, probably shorter toward the late end, like 3:30 - 5. Pig is usually pretty flexible with late arrivals on Friday.
Other viable airports are Lexington (1:31), Louisville (2:23), Columbus (2:42), and Dayton (3:11).
Probably not viable for most people: Indianapolis (3:58), Pittsburgh (4:46)
Late starts on Friday are certainly possible:
Sunrise: 7:27
Sunset: 7:52
Adding to the above posting, that area is very remote and scary.
For those of you from developed NE, you may experience true cultural shock.
This video is said to be filmed in the park vicinity.
Another one
Don't worry, Yuri, we have drunk idiots in rural New England, too. They just have different accents.
It's really not that bad. Parts of the American West are much more remote and less populated. It's literally 20 or 30 minutes without cell service. And I choose the low bridge option because it's shorter and fun-to-drive and I like that way.
We *could* look into hiring a Harbinger, like from The Cabin in the Woods, to freak people out excessively at registration: "The trials here will last for three days, but will you last? Beware the Long, for it is formidable and onerous. If you survive the Middle, you are not yet finished: The drive back is demanding and your smartphone will be useless."
Pig is usually pretty flexible with late arrivals on Friday.
But can't be too flexible -- if at all -- with the drawn start times for the WOC and JWOC candidates.
@cedarcreek: No need for extra scares at registration... ;-)
Maybe we could provide "rabbits" to keep the collectors & servers on the A-A Hwy occupied. :-D
yurets--it might not be them, it may be your kind ;)
Ask the Great Baltero what happened to him during one of our DVOA Jukola training camps at the propitiously sounding "Promised Land".
I wouldn't have cared, frankly, but tents would not screen out the audio of what they might have done to him had things escalated.
SLM. It's a long trip back to California, and catching a plane with a long course is more difficult.
of what they might have done to him had things escalated
I sense
this
And the difference between paying with VISA vs VISACHECKOUT is...?
You use a login and password to pay rather than entering your cc number on each site you wish to purchase things from.
https://checkout.visa.com/index.jsp?country=US&loc...
Where is the event HQ/banquet going to be? Morehead? Elsewhere? Having got plane tickets, next step of the process is hotel-thinking...
Event HQ and dinner will be at Carter Caves SP. The park has blocked all lodge rooms and cabins for us. Prices are reasonable and will be announced shortly. We will also list motels in Olive Hill and Grayson which are closest to Carter Caves.
Huntington, WV, United States (HTS-Tri-State) seems to have flights via Charlotte...expensive, but maybe viable using frequent flyer miles. 38 minutes from the park according to Google, along I-64.
How interesting is the terrain? Worth a long flight?
Update your location, Jacques.
If you dare, come and take the walk through our 1/4 mile wooded trail, and experience thrilling scenes and haunts that will have you shivering with fear. Our past trail survivors consider Carter Caves Haunted Trail as one of the best...
The trail is not recommended for members of US Juniors Team
Ah, thanks JJ. Too many address changes to file; I missed one. Updated. Still a longish flight, but not as long as that implied.
Somehow I doubt the haunted trail is open in March :-P
Jim, I think it's pretty interesting. Watch the "making the Carter Caves map" video on the OUSA website for a sneak peak at some of the terrain.
Any update on the finalizing the schedule. I am trying to buy a flight for Alison who has to get back to Scotland for Monday am and the latest option leaves Cincinnati 3.48pm.
That would mean leaving event by noon at the latest. Is the plan to have the Potential team runners out first or last?
I have not gotten an opinion from the Team Selection Committee when they want to run the trials. I know they like to run all the trials folks together, and I'd personally prefer later in the window for spectator value. As Event Director, I personally have no objection to giving Alison an early start (first starts probably will be scheduled for 9), but the people who matter in that decision are the team selection committee.
What I can say for sure is that Sunday will be middle distance. And I'd like to schedule starts 9-11. I don't know if team selection (both senior and junior) might require that window to go a little longer / later to accommodate the Selection Committee's needs / desires, depending how many total entries we have.
I started checking air fares and so far, Charleston, WV is about $100 cheaper for the RT ticket than Lexington & Cincinnati. I have not bought a ticket yet and it will surely depend on where you're flying to/from but it may be worth considering.
Cincinnati's only non-stop to Europe (DL 228) leaves at 4:00 pm to Paris (CDG), if that helps. Connecting through Paris gets you to Edinburgh at 10:50 am. Other flights leaving at 6 pm connect through Atlanta, then either Heathrow or Amsterdam, but they don't arrive until 12:40 or 12:45 pm. The combination of DL 1126, 4365, 4412 leaves at 4 pm and gets into Edinburgh at 10:40 am. Don't know if any of this helps...
After reading the latest issue of ONA I became aware of a real possibility of being violated by TSA agents. So, I am too afraid to fly. As a true Southern Conservative, I want to preserve myself .Will be driving, probably...
I get repeatedly violated by Delta agents in ATL. Female agents. I think I start to understand Southern Conservatives.
oh yeah, here in Georgia they have this supernatural ability to identify gentle people coming from San Francisco, and then--they are totally merciless
Any new info on when sprint window on Friday might be? And if TT runners will be beginning or end of it? (Sorry to be pushy, just starting to matter for travel plans!)
To add to Ali's comment - best travel I can find from NYC appears to be to SDF from Newark, arriving at 11.41 (United). Too close for comfort?
We are planning to have sprint starts from 3 to 5. Ideally, I would like to have the team trialers in the latter portion for spectator value. I would not anticipate any regular starters before 2:30 at the earliest. A preliminary schedule has been under review by event staff and I expect to make it public within another 24 hours.
Preliminary event information is posted. Besides orienteering, we will have a Saturday evening banquet with a featured speaker about bats and the caves, Cave tours on Friday evening, and a guided nature hike through one of the most rugged and beautiful parts of the park on Saturday afternoon.
Just called to book rooms or cabins, with no luck... Everything booked!
Boris, the cabins might be gone but there should still be lodge rooms. Be sure to ask for "Flying Pig Orienteering".
An
overview location map has now been posted.
If lodge rooms are gone, check the other lodging options linked from the
Event Information pages
I have just added some more lodging links and information.
Mike, do you have a good contact at the park? I called Reserve America today to get a tent site; however, the park isn't releasing them any inventory until 1 Apr even though the park website says camping from 15 Mar onwards. When I call the park, they just hear "camping reservation" and direct me to Reserve America.
Sevin, I spoke with the park manager and the sites can't be reserved in advance because they don't know if they will have all the water and sewer hookups turned on (due to the possibility of late freezing weather). However the sites will be open on a drive-in / walk-in basis, and at least one bath house will be open. There's virtually no chance of the campground filling up that early in the season. So it is quite safe to plan to pick out a site when you arrive.
Sweet, thanks for the follow-up!! :)
Who has reserved all these cabins? Do I know any of you, and can I somehow bribe my way into one? Just called and all rooms and cabins are booked full, as mentioned above.
I got a room at the Quality Inn in Grayson. You should come stay there!
It seems very weird that everything is booked up despite the fact there hasn't really been a real announcement yet. I wonder if the person on the other end of the phone understands that there are sub bookings for Flying Pig attendees?
But it looks like we are almost definitely going so I guess we will join you guys at the Quality Inn...
Pretty sure all are booked. Though not announced, the information was available on the event page as early as the 18th, which is when the last cabin available was booked by a local family. I got a room that same night, and others have mentioned that they got rooms as well since then.
Would be nice to confirm that everything is booked, and if it is indeed true, then strike out the reference to the CC lodging so the poor staff isn't inundated with phone calls.
Thanks for the confirmation Valerie! I will go ahead and book with Boris and co!
I am at fault for not saying anything but when I called the cabins were all gone and there was only one room left so I reserved it. And that was on the 23rd.
When we reserved a cabin on the 17th we were told it was the last one.
Maybe every cabin is the last one. Maybe you can still call and get the last one.
I guess like many others we had been waiting for an announcement that the cabins and lodge rooms were available for booking before trying to do so.
We booked the Super 8 in Grayson based on price and reviews checked by one of our group.
Pretty sure that you have to say you are with the KY Sports Authority when booking. I booked a cabin way back in November and they initially told me they were all booked. However, given that it is only 2 months away, they could be gone.
Two months to go-- the level of anxiety in anticipation of the event is unprecedented. Everyone cannot wait any longer before discovering Kentucky, which has the potential to become the new orienteering Mecca on American continent.
There are only 11 cabins. OCIN reserved 5 of them before we went public (three for event staff, two for junior cabins). I am sure the remainder went very quickly. I know that one cabin and several lodge rooms had gone even before that (someone figured out to mention orienteering or Flying Pig before we published that info). Likewise, the lodge only has 28 rooms and I would not be surprised if an O club or school group might have booked several. I know a lot of people were itching for our announcement and probably acted right away. Several people at the Georgia Nav Cup asked me about rooms, and I told them they should book right away to be sure of gertting rooms.
It's a shame they don't have more rooms in the park, but Grayson has several good motel options.
If anyone releases a room or cabin, I'd encourage them to announce it here first.
There are still a few rooms at the Comfort Inn in Morehead. It's a bit more expensive than the Quality in Grayson, and somewhat farther away, though.
Booked the Super 8 in Grayson as well. Best reviews for that town.
By the way, Kentucky has strange laws about alcohol. They vary by county. Many counties are "dry", meaning no alcohol can be sold. Others are "wet", meaning alcohol can be sold in package stores, bars, or restaurants. Rowan and Carter counties, where most of us will be staying, are "moist". Alcohol can be sold in the city of Morehead and the towns of Grayson and Olive Hill, but not outside city limits.
^^^most informative^^^ many thanks.
Good point about the booze. Just an FYI, this is a pretty rural area - there is not much place to buy ANYTHING outside of the city limits. There are not any services along I 64 between Morehead and Olive Hill, although there is a rest area just after leaving Morehead. Closest WalMarts are Morehead and Ashland. There is a KMart and a TSC in Grayson. A very small grocery in Olive Hill and a slightly bigger one (with Deli) in Grayson. Closest big chain grocery is, you guessed it, in Morehead.
Adding to what Mike said, by Kentucky law "anyone who has been drinking is “sober” until he or she “cannot hold onto the ground”". I am taking my regular supply of Stolichnaya with me
I wonder when on-line registration may be available. Thanks!
These minutes last eternity...
Unfortunately, we discovered a serious glitch just before going live -- serious enough to stop that from happening. Assuming the developer can fix it, we are hoping to go live sometime today.
Yep!
Sorry, no medals for being first to enter.
You'll have to earn one in the forest. :-)
Congratulations! You get all the medals!
Are any of the races WRE events?
Sorry Damian, no they are not.
awww Why not? Will USA have any WRE this year then?
I can't speak for OCIN, but there are additional complexities/requirements to host a WRE that aren't necessarily appreciated (or at least economically rewarded) by the marketplace.
I'm thankful OCIN continues to put on high quality events--this time the US Championship and Team Trials (which, much like the WRE idea, doesn't provide them anything more than a warm fuzzy feeling.)
How might we tilt the market place to make sure WREs do occur? Because they are important for our elite athletes, especially now that WOC seeding things are WRE-based. How much (in either $ or something else) would it take to make a club consider a WRE worth their time and effort?
If I were running an event these days, I'd probably suggest a $20+ per WRE race surcharge to help on the revenue side...
If OUSA valued these, they might consider a further subsidy/incentive/in-kind contribution (rather than the increased premium commanded for hosting a US championship of some sort.)
So if a subsidy-from-above, instead of per participant (which probably makes most sense- effort in making WRE is mostly one-off not per person, right?) about $1000?
Personally, I really enjoy participating in WREs. OCIN has hosted several of them. For a number of reasons, it was not practical for us to bid WRE status for this meet. I would love to see more of them in North America, but it didn't work out for this meet. Along those lines, we need more people in North America to get certified as IOF Event Advisors.
I'm all for paying proper amounts of money to make things happen. But I am curious - what problem is it that we'd be solving by charging more?
There are definitely some extra costs. If you're reimbursing an IOF advisor to come in for one or two pre-event site visits, then event weekend, you're pretty quickly at $1000 dollars, assuming 5-6 nights (at a minimum) in a $50-70 motel room, and their travel expenses. If they have to fly in, that increases. And you can count the number of IOF event advisors in North America on one hand. So if those few advisors can't or won't do your event, then you might have to bring someone from Europe.
That said, there are enough extra issues with doing a WRE that money alone won't solve. IOF adds a lot of responsibilities not directly associated with courses regarding arena set up, media and promotion, complex procedures for assigning starts, etc. Not to complain, but for an organizer who is already using all of their resources to get courses and general event stuff right, the extras require more time and people that they can afford. Perhaps hiring a part time person to specifically deal with WRE issues could help, so that's also something that money might help solve. But money alone isn't the entire solution.
We put on a WRE. Did extra people come? No. The end.
Along those lines, we need more people in North America to get certified as IOF Event Advisors.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a certain minimum activity level IOF Event Advisors have to maintain, i.e. if we had hordes of people champing at the bit to get certified, it would be necessary to limit the number who actually got certified at any one time or there would be no work for some of them to do?
Of course, even if I've got that right, having different people get certified than the ones who have in the past would be good. Mike and Adrian (sorry for whatever amount out of date I may be) have events of their own to take care of.
I see the problem as simply we don't have WREs in the USA this year. If it's a cost thing that limits the clubs from putting them on, then the cost should be spread to those who want to have WREs in this country. I'd say that includes not only the athletes who directly compete in a WRE, but also anyone who wants to see elite competitive orienteering maintain an upward trajectory.
To contradict Vlad somewhat, I have traveled to events specifically because they were WREs in the past. But our elite orienteering base that is likely willing to do this for any one event is so small (an extra 10-15 at most who would come to WRE as opposed to A meet?), that just their entry fees may not cover the costs of a WRE. And so I think we [everyone who wants US orienteering to become more and more competitive] should try to solve that problem as opposed to solely rely on the good will of clubs who of their own accord to motivate and put out the effort to host WREs (and thanks to OCIN, DVOA, GetLost and all who have in the past and hopefully future!)
orienteering article on Morehead Public Radio
Regarding WRE cost, there is also the EUR 250 per race fee that OUSA has been paying.
We are limited to the number you are allowed to have to be 4 though. 2 sprints and 2 forest I believe. I understand the effort it takes to put something like a WRE on, but its not like it will be loads of events. I think I agree with Ali, it is going to be key to growing the competitive side of the sport and with all the effort the teams have been doing, especially Erin and the Juniors, it would be sad to see us lose this. I think it is a real shame if the USA don't hold any WREs this year. But yes it has to come from everyone not just the elites or the federation to make it happen.
I know OCIN really wanted to have these races be WREs. But it's about a three-hour drive for us, and Mike is pretty overloaded as it is. The map was in-progress until recently, and that probably wouldn't have looked good to the WRE authorities. I don't want to speak for Mike about whether he wanted these to be WREs, but I know I did. And it just wasn't possible this year. I don't see how we could have made it happen in a way that didn't compromise our standards or over commit our volunteers.
I do want to add, though, that from where I'm seeing the process, we are pulling out the stops to make sure this goes as smoothly as possible. We're doing everything we can to make this a high-quality event.
We're doing everything we can to make this a high-quality event.
not just high-quality but super-natural. Where else do I find genetic mixing and xenotransplantation of bats and pigs?
What exactly is the appeal of WRE events when the WR system itself is so completely broken?
I think the appeal of the WRE events was pretty specifically addressed in AliC's earlier posting in this thread--" Because they are important for our elite athletes, especially now that WOC seeding things are WRE-based." Whether or not the numbers mean anything, for some people not having the number actually has a (negative) impact. Why they don't make a very good criterion is sort of a separate issue. And although the system is broken worse now, it wasn't really all that splendid before the most recent revision.
I feel the WRE stamp on an event goes a bit further than just giving points to the elite athletes. When I'm considering what events to travel to I feel a WRE is a promise from the organizers that they are going to deliver a high quality event, with maps made to ISOM/ISSOM standards, map printing at high quality, interesting terrain, and a high standard of course planning. Not to say that other events won't provide this, but I see the WRE stamp as a kind of guarantee. So when I choose which events to travel to, I feel the WRE stamp influences my choice, even though I'm not even running in the elite categories.
I agree with AZ. Also that we could be using WREs to help market our sport. Even to a casual observer it must imply something 'real', like the term 'World Cup'. Yet we go and call our races things like 'Fish Bones' or 'Raccoongaine'. Is it any wonder no one in NA knows what orienteering is?
New
site locator maps for each day have been added to the
event website.
On the
Race Details page, more detail has been added regarding parking, walk to start, and shuttle bus.
No services on I-64 between Morehead & Olive Hill?
Try no exits!
When can we expect information about course lengths and climb?
Wondering the same thing about course lengths ... contemplating changing but would like to make an informed decision.
A comment on upnorthguy's take on the marketing. If I were coming into a sport as a relative novice, I cannot imagine thinking that something with a name like World Cup, or World Ranking Event would even be open to my participation. And while the name might not aid brand-name recognition for the orienteering sport as a whole, the Raccoongaine annually has to close off entries a month or more ahead of the event because they hit the registration limit of 150 people that the park imposes on them, so it can't be causing much of a problem on the local level. That happened again this year, even though DVOA put their spring A-meet on the same weekend in the same state just a couple or three hours drive away. I am personally sad to have to miss Foxhunter II because of the conflict, but I also know that a well-organized rogaine, even a quarter-length one, is going to be more fun for me than an A-meet, even one put on by DVOA which does about as good a job with their events as any club in the country.
Carter Caves is steep and in places rocky. Course lengths are taking this into account. I may be able to get some length and climb info posted tonight.
Length / climb info is posted for middle and long races on the
Race Details page. There could of course still be some slight tweaks to some of the courses.
I really don't want to be this person but I'm going to be. I apologise in advance but if there really is space for final tweaking, this should be considered.
Are those sprints lengths final? Because the guidelines say," WINNING TIME: Sprint winning time should be 12-15 minutes for all classes, preferably in the lower end of this range."
For the women to hit 15 minutes they need to run 4 minute kms IF the course is a perfect straight line between controls, which is obviously never is on a sprint.
If a couple of controls or an extra loop can be easily docked, it should be considered. The last women's WOC sprint was won at a speed of 3 mins 46 seconds per km.
Agree with Becks. For current red course length my winning time prediction runs at 18:00. It is at least 0.5k too long.
It depends on how that course distance is measured. If it's straight line I would agree with Becks and Sergey and add that the men's course is too long as well. I tend to think of Men's sprint courses as ideally between 2.5 and 3.2 ish.
On the other hand if those course distances aren't straight line but shortest route as the IOF now wants then they're probably ok.
Good point Jeff, I agree!
Seeing in "Natural Hazards":
Some of these pits are effectively bottomless
Wow, what an inspiration! Someone can get all the way down to the Hell, where the devils fry sinners in magma, by falling into one of these
I encountered a pit like that on a map in Switzerland once. As close as I dared to get, I couldn't see the bottom, and it was maybe 5 meters wide. There's also a scary hole on Surebridge that's in flat forest, easy to not notice as you approach it. It gets wider as you go down, and at about 5 meters down you hit water. No way out. At WOC93 we surrounded it with a lot of yellow tape.
A 1:10,000 practice / model area map at Carter Caves is now available and may be picked up free at the desk at the Carter Caves State Park Lodge during operating hours. The lodge closes at 8 pm Sunday thru Wednesday but is open 24 hours on the weekend. There are only 5 sample controls in the field, but there is a substantial area of about 0.8 km2 available for your exploration and training.
The practice area map is also available on the OCIN event website as a
jpg file - Practice Area Map
What a random piece of track down on the bottom tip of the map!
According to that Google map, this area is known as "Devil's Backbone".
It is getting scarier by the minute...
Friday night buffet at the lodge (on your own). The lodge dining room normally closes at 8. I have talked the manager into keeping it open until 9 next Friday. So people can be a little less rushed getting from Morehead to the park, getting checked in and cleaned up, etc. And those who get tickets for the early (7:00) cave tour will for sure be able to get dinner afterwards if desired.
Early event check in will be available Thursday evening and Friday morning at Carter Caves State Park Lodge. Carter Caves practice maps are already available from the front desk at the lodge.
People have asked about wifi in the park. There is NOT wifi in the cabins, but there is good wifi in the lodge.
Is there 3G reception in and around the park?
I have Verizon, and I had good service on top of the spurs. Specifically, at the cabins near the golf course (not the one near the visitor's center), I had LTE 4G, but the signal wasn't full strength. (This was a year ago. All my recent time there was in spots with bad service.)
weak service with ATT. I can text from most places but weak phone especially in the valleys.
Hour-by-hour weather
Colder than we'd prefer, but not too bad.
Updated length and climb posted on race details page. Highlights: longest sprints very slightly shorter, brown long climbs reduced, red and blue sprints very slightly shorter than originally posted. Blue long has significantly more climb than originally calculated.
Is the blue sprint measured straight line or shortest route? Thanks.
I am going to make an assumption that spikes are not suggested for the sprint?
This is a campus sprint. There is lots of pavement. There are also a number of grassy slopes, some steep. Given that information, your choice of footwear. I'd kind of discourage spikes because of all the concrete but you might wish you had them if you slip on a grassy slope.
Distances are straight line. Time-wise, we expect the advanced courses to run toward the long end. For those trying for the WOC and JWOC teams, the length is not out of the range that you could expect at WOC.
Like Becks, I hate to be that person...
But, this is a US Championship and a US A event. This is not WOC.
Will it be the case that "Sprint winning time should be 12-15 minutes for all classes, preferably in the lower end of this range"?
I don't see how. And I don't understand why not.
The best active American marathoners are good for about 2:07/2:08...should the US Olympic marathon trials for Rio be shortened to 25.2?
Neither here nor there. A marathon is defined by distance, as is a 5K, etc.
Orienteering disciplines are defined by a variety of metrics, but time being far more important than distance. You solve for distance to produce a desired time.
As a team trials event you should be finding out who is most likely to race best at WOC. One of the factors involved in that is course length. If the Americans are likely to be running the sprint course in 18 minutes then they should be tested on a course they will run in 18 minutes not in 13. Same with the middle and long but that's even further off topic.
I disagree on a number of levels. This is untenable. But, you're right, that you have to consider the other courses.
For the men... what is a 12.1K "long" course suppose to proxy at WOC? I guess the long quali, with a 60 minute winning time for world elite. I expect this terrain might be slightly slower than 5 minutes per K for elites, but close enough. However, I thought they did away with the long quali? In the long final, NorAm men ran 2:20. I think the long this weekend is too short by that measure.
How about a 4.6K middle? That one is going to produce winning US times in the 30-40 range. But, again, maybe OK, where WOC qualifiers run <30. But we don't have middle qualis anymore, so this course seems way short (at last WOC, I don't think a NorAm man broke 50.)
Anyway, this analysis suggests to me that setting distances to proxy for what people are going to run at WOC is fool's errand. And it would be disingenuous.
Do we honestly think that an 18 minute sprint is going to select a different team or provide more insights that a 13.5 minute one?
Again, this is a US Champs and a US A event. There are specific rules for those. There are not for TT (at least not in the US with respect to course parameters.)
If the course setters are going to let the TT tail wag the US Championships dog (which my read of the situation does not seem to be the case, sprint assertions aside) I'd assert the TT should never be contested on sanctioned A event courses where non-TT people will be running.
How do you solve for distance? Use the top AP scores by course color registered by the time late fees kick in? What if a WOC type has a meeting in Cinci for their day job and extends their trip?
In my experience, it is art and science.
It doesn't matter if a WOC type attends--you are not setting courses for them, but rather a 100 point ranked US runner. OUSA rankings, not AP rankings...
The course specs look great.
And our federations expect us to do well at WOC running a 15-16km long course in hilly physical terrain that will take us 2:15 to complete having possibly only ever competed (if you're only competing domestically at least) on a 11-12 km long course in less hilly physical terrain?
That's like asking someone who only runs one 10k race a year to compete at the world 10k champs. It's not going to happen.
You need to go into the race knowing what it's like to race that discipline internationally.
I think the discipline definition such that the discipline changes depending on the region of the world you're in / who shows up is not good for international competition. In some ways I understand it and support it but if we want to compete internationally we need to compete on international level courses.
Sorry all, this isn't meant as a criticism of this or any other NA race weekend. I just question the philosophy of OUSA/OCAN/IOF race discipline rules.
Given what we're used to and what the rules are the course lengths look just fine. If I were in NA right now I would do my best to attend these races and I'm sure they will be very enjoyable for all who are there.
With the exception of the sprint, and particularly the women's sprint (and I've only looked at red and blue specs), these course parameters are pretty good for the US Championships in these three very different disciplines.
I think it is bizarre to expect a facsimile of WOC conditions at a TT race so that competitors can get a flavor of what racing WOC disciplines are going to be like. I hope that our athletes are doing that elsewhere.
The TT are not WOC. Just one difference... are you racing three finals in three consecutive days? Should you be training for that? Should TT be considered preparation for WOC?? They can't be.
Good points j-man.
Only... "I hope that our athletes are doing that elsewhere". Where?
I think he means they should go race in Europe, like certain Canadians. :)
Sigh... I guess I have to concede on that point ;)
Training camps, other international competition, on their own.
The issue is that WOC-level competitors are such a niche (for better or worse) in North America, that mass-market events (A-events) can't be expected to cater to them. That doesn't mean that WOC-level competitors can't benefit from that kind of racing, but it is not sufficient.
"I hope that our athletes are doing that elsewhere" and that's why orienteering in NA will never be the same as elsewhere (Europe).
Nope--that is not why. That is putting the cart before the horse.
While what D-MAN says is far from the only reason that orienteering is at a lower level competitively than in Europe I definitely don't think it is fair to say that that is putting the cart before the horse.
To each his own. It is a major part of the puzzle.
It is at a lower level competitively because it is at a lower level on every other dimension. Trying to put one aspect on par with Europe without building the rest would be like making your delts huge and forgetting your quads. Pumping Iron holds lessons for much of life...
If NorAm elite athletes were fitter and faster then the NorAm courses would be longer (and closer to WOC standard). So the message to our elites is simple. Get fitter and we will set longer courses. Train on.
Within bounds of reason, one of the nice things about orienteering is the variety. Yes, some arbitrary metrics have been plunked down over the years, but I'm happy with courses that are suitable to the terrain, in terms of various things, length among them.
This discussion thread is closed.