Discussion: How long can a control hangout in the forest

Is this a record for bringing in a control?

At the weekend event at Frazzle Rock, Western Australia. A training course was set on a well used part of the map on the the Saturday and to the surprise of the coach at the location of her start she found a control stand, flag and SI brick? Humm thought Carol who has put this here, I didn't think the courses for the next day were in this area?

On investigation it was an uncollected control from the Easter 3 Day event held at Easter 2011 and the control had been hanging peacefully for over four years.

The SI Unit was still working fine and the time had drifted about a minute.

What other tales of long lost controls are there?

I think you'll find it was 1hr and 1min! We didn't have daylight savings in 2011 ;-)

Well, not an uncollected control...but last November, QOC had two controls vandalized at a local event (suburban Maryland, USA). Controls were off trail but near a housing complex.

About two weeks ago, I received a phone call (my phone numbers are on the controls [I need to change that!!])...Caller says, I see this thing in the stream, does it belong there?

No, it doesn't. We arrange to get the electronic control from the guy. While it was supposedly found in the stream, it was bone dry inside and working fine. Do I care if this was the culprit or not? No! I am glad that $140 has been saved for another day.

So, more recently - in April, three controls went missing at a local meet (Maryland again). All three were on the lower end of the park map, closer to civilization, not that any of the map is very far from civilization.

One of the course setters goes out in the days after and checks the three sites for any evidence of the controls. The course setters for this event are first timers, so they were probably wondering if they had managed to screw this cluster up somehow. The one out looking finds nothing in the woods, but then on the way back to his car, on a main road, but not on an interior park road, in a ditch, there is a flag and an electronic control.

So, score is QOC 2, vandals 3.

We had another wander off. Oddly, I think it was our #46 that was our first stolen control a couple years ago, which we replaced with a shiny new #46 flag and SI unit, now a prize in someone's "I'm a jerk" trophy case. The first round it was on trail, and the second it was just off trail.

I have been wondering how to prevent opportunistic thieves. I've experimented with zip ties, but you can break the ones I used with keys (or snap the branch), so I've wondered this sort of lock $6 custom combo cable lock, which might be good insurance for white and yellow flags, since there's generally a beefy enough but not too beefy tree, but I was curious about what everyone thought was best practice. (We tie flags, no stands.)

We did forget a control at a fall meet and it quietly sat until it was collected in the spring. No hunting at this park and being far enough off trail not to attract attention may have helped.

I've yanked decomposing controls from Scottish forests plenty of times! The joys of coaching!

Thee have been a number of times when we've found controls that had been out for at least a year. There was also a case, probably at least 10 years ago, when one of the competitors arrived at the finish carrying a punchcard found on the course that somebody had lost -- this would happen from time to time. But in this case the card was for somebody who wasn't registered that year, it had been sitting out in the forest all that time, and considering that this was in Wyoming, where the winds are pretty fierce, it's that much more surprising.

Found a control on a 1991 training camp that had very probably been there since 1985. The flag was bleached totally white but was otherwise intact.

We've had this a couple times at the club's annual training weekend, where many of the same sites get used every year and by different trainers. Someone going out to hang their controls will find last year's rotting bag.

At a meet of my primary club we once found a control someone else left in the woods... a flat sort of banner made of felt, but in the usual orange/white pattern, dangling from a wire hanger.

And we had a handful of rogaine controls hang in the woods for ~6 months after someone who lived nearby agreed to pick them up and never did. The one right on the Appalachian trail was actually still there, along with the intention board, which had been signed by several hikers. And someone had left a Finding Nemo pool kickboard hanging next to it...

My favorite incident with finding something later was not a flag but a shoe. At a meet there was a family with a baby in a backpack, and somewhere along the course the baby lost a shoe. Fast forward 3 or 4 years. I was setting courses in the same park and came upon the baby shoe, all damp and moldy, out in the forest. It probably would have been creepy if I didn't know where it came from.

We had a control disappear st a weekday evening sprint between the last runner and control pickup, a matter of just 15 or 20 minutes. Several of us spent quite some time searching the area to no avail.

Many months, almost a year later, I got a call from a park ranger who found said control that day in a dumpster (which gets emptied regularly). The flag was very dirty - it had obviously spent a long time buried in mud and leaves. Presumably it was then found by a hiker and taken to the dumpster. The SI unit worked good as new!

But the weirdest experience we ever had remains a puzzle:

After a Flying Pig A meet many years ago, Bill Swift was picking up controls in a remote part of the park. He planted three firmly in the ground on the upper part of a long spur while he descended to pick up another. On his return just a few minutes later, they were nowhere to be found! Bill searched a long time, doubtless fearing the onset of Alzheimer's before eventually giving up the search, very embarrassed and frustrated. In following days, I went back and also thoroughly searched the entire area. No controls. We concluded that a stealthy theif had played a grand prank on Bill.

Some two or three years later, setting another course in that park, I came upon all three controls, within 100 meters of where Bill said he had left them, and where i had thoroughly searched several times. Each stand was upright in the ground, but they were spaced 30 or 40 meters apart. That was in the days before SI, but other than somewhat faded bags and punches, they were otherwise in good condition.

Could I offer the converse? How short can a control be out on a course?The first session at a primary school after school sport (AASC for Aus people) was all game based. My second visit I was putting controls out for their first short course. As I finished putting out controls I learned that the cleaner was busily pulling them in - thinking them a prank - I found them in the Lost Property box. Approx time 10 minutes.

@tinytoes, you have to laugh

I think Ricky a couple of years ago was accosted by a security guard at UWA who needed convincing that the SI bricks were not IEDs and that he was not a Terrorist.

Just tell them you're working for Bjørn Lomborg and you're trying to measure a consensus.

I wasn't accosted; I ran away really quickly! Not suspicious at all.

So to the original question: How long can a control hangout in the forest?

-As long as it wants to!
-Until last drinks?
-Once noticed by security, it'll be given the boot for loitering.
-'Til death do us part.
-Is it still hanging if it's on a spike?
-If there is no-one around to see it, is it still there?

Dragon Skin, a scout orienteering/scout event - -33.349963, 150.265202 - months or years earlier a blue and yellow flag had been hung on the knoll; I've marked it approximately from memory. My wife and I were setting a 12 hour upside down rogaine in 1995 and choose the knoll in what was/is wonderful open eucalyptus forest. I think we left the flag until I was given a copy the NSW Orienteering map that the scouts used for the area. I had seen blue and yellow bags at the Annual Navigation Shield Search and Rescue Rogaine and assume that they were there's. I think the NSWRA has been back there at twice since then.

The other thing to say about the bag/flag was that it was 750/1000 mm on each side!

Looks like a decent MTBO map.

I've got one that's been out for 12 months and still proudly in its spot, occasionally being reported to me or the land manager as being present. Once day I'll get on my surf ski and paddle across the harbour to get it... just can't be bothered driving for the sole purpose of retrieving one CP that's proving a good PR strategy!

There's a rogaine control left in thick bush near Mt Many Peaks from 1984. I wonder if it is still there?

Richard, it took almost eight hours but the comment I told you about on Saturday night from MrR eventually came through :-)

tRicky, I obviously don't use the correct bait as you get a much better catch

Hey! I was working! :)

I dropped a glove during a rogaine in September of one year and found it on an orienteering course in October of the following year.

Don't you know that rogaining and orienteering don't mix?

hilarious..

it can hang all it wants but at 4pm it has to come down.

Or maybe at 3:40 to the irritation of some people. But I really wanted to see the Avengers 2, and sacrifices must be made.

Coincidentally, both of our unhappiest recent customers (Park Lyndon, Bishop) have been novices tackling Green who were surprised that flags were down before sunset.

MDs must be criticized on all forums. Whatever it takes to reach perfection.

I have their address from their membership form. Maybe they'll get $5 in the mail.

But they got half hour of extra map study. That is surely worth something. :)

I left a Jet Spectra compass here 4 years ago. Finders keepers. I've been to two other navigation races here since, but none of my routes took me close enough to go check to see how it's doing.

Found a wooden pin punch (made from a clothes peg) in Ecclesall Woods in about 1984.

@Mr Wonderful - we use something similar for urbanish events, but ours are less substantial retractable plastic locks. Usually only lose controls in the wealthier parts of our patch of Sydney (Riverview, Pymble - ye know where you people live and we know how you got rich).

Haven't lost any wooden pin punches this millenium !

@undy my first ever Orienteering event in 1975 was at Eccleshall SW of Stoke-on-Trent but not the one in Sheffield where I assume your clothes peg punch was. I did do a one of the first Harvester's overnight relay events at Eccleshall Woods also in the 1970s. Does that still run, it was the BOF attempt to do a Tiomila style event?

How precise is that waypoint, Socks?

Months. At least a year. Hmmmph. This one went out in the 80's and was rescued during a remap in 2012.

Good MTBO? I don't know but a great <https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/33%C2%B018'26...> view from here and rarely visited or <https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/33%C2%B018'26...> here for spreading ashes!

Ben, it's within 50m of that spot.

We came from the NE, descended into that small coulee, and I stopped to tie my shoe on a log or a rock or something at near the bottom. Took the compass off my thumb there. We left to the SW and then up that reentrant going west. I realized I didn't have it until ~30 minutes later.

Look for a good shoe-tying spot!

When revising an old map in 2003 I found a wooden control-stand with pin-punches. The actual control flag was gone but the code was perfectly readable. Turns out it was used for an event in 1980. I was too lazy to bring it home and it might actually still be out there...

@LOST_Richard - yep, an extra h in your one (I just edited the Sheffield one).

The Harvester still happens and was in (the Sheffield) Ecclesall Woods relatively recently, which must have been exciting for the SPOOK and SYO heads who know it backwards.

What about a big relay mid-week at the Oz-champs fest (same day, area as the Schools Relay) ? Maybe start at midnight, finish in time to watch the schools ?

Night relays. What pleasant memories they bring back. If OAWA did those again, I might come along...

They were awesome fun, but I don't know that we'd get the numbers to make it work any more. Maybe in conjunction with an interstate carnival, but I wouldn't want to be in the room when you suggested adding another event to an already packed week to the organisers.

I like Undy's suggestion

Many years back, during control pickup, I found one that had apparently been out since the previous event at that location (Tenafly Nature Ctr, NJ). It had apparently been subjected to a bizarre act of vandalism...

Leaving everything else more or less intact, the vandal(s) had removed the (triangular) wire frames.

It got me thinking that this might be what (space) aliens would do to a control flag...

Would regular aliens take it over the border?

Jim, I'm coming over for the carnival this year. Make it happen.

I'm thinking of 2017, when we have it over East. Big Foot have landed the schools relay at this stage. The probable area has a camp ground.

The main problem will be getting volunteers for the major roles, and on the day volunteers (its mid-week).

Note that I'm keeping the discussion hidden in this topic so that the rest of the club doesn't spot it...

I'll have long service leave that year so I'll have plenty of time to hold a torch or whatever (presuming I'm still at this job).

Are Victoria (2015) and Queensland (2016) not over east?

Maybe get O-ing to set and Grilla to control, but I forget no one in BF reads AP threads

I'm retired from orienteering in Queensland and its too late (probably) for 2015 - we're having a meeting about 2017 this weekend (!). By which time I'll have to reveal my cunning plan to grilla

Has NSW considered allocating tasks across a carnival to clubs rather than getting them to take on specific events?

Not biting.

Some clubs prefer to do a day so that is their contribution and can have other days free rather than being on call for everyday of the carnival. We tried that once before and found we lost quiet a few potential volunteers from subsequent carnivals. It can also make coordination smoother.

My favourite is finding a stand out in the Sedgwick forest for which not only the kite has decomposed, but also the club which had placed the stand. Brumby Orienteers RIP.

Tinytoes, Jennycas: But which method best ensures that some controls are left out in the forest?

I think Jenny's method wins when the control collecting club doesn't care about collecting controls that belong to another club. If one club ran one day, they'd make sure to collect all their gear.

Best control collection I have seen was at Barebones in Canada when on the last day it was a score event with a 60 minute time, with all the controls used on the previous couple of days. After 45 minutes you could collect controls and get a bonus score for the ones you brought back to the assembly.

That would meet the goal quite well. Any further than 15min from the assembly would stay out, and go in the contest for the longest hangout.

I think there was a twist whereby that at the end of the 60 minutes you had some further time to get back to base. Whatever the details it worked well on the day and it fun racing to a control site only to find that it had been collected. You could also try and run down the collectors and "punch" the ones they were carrying and save all that messy navigation stuff!

Yeah it's so much easier finding someone carrying a control (no longer on the map) than finding one, say, in a cave.

Ah so that was what that WMOC runner was doing a few years ago when he re-placed a control! He was being helpful.

Ok undy step 1 now in place. We didn't have the relay but now do. When I said we wanted to run a fun and interesting public relay the idea was pooh-poohed as 'no-one wants to run relays so no-one will turn up'. So, there is your challenge.

Ps
All WA, Vic and Tas runners can also thank me for my amazing foresight ;)

One man relay?

Nothing to do with the relay.

A number of years ago at a winter night O, we had a control flag ripped to shreds. Tracks in the snow identified the culprit as a coyote or dog. Based on following the track over some distance and the behavior of the trail, I put a very high probability on coyote rather than dog.

In the circle of control 10 on the Red course at Bradford Woods, there was a control that had hung out in the forest for many (perhaps 10) years. The bag was mostly disintegrated, but the lamination on the control code paper and the pin punch seemed mostly intact.

Are you organising buses to bring us over, grilla?

yay for night o :) and relays. Can we do a mass start race too, fun of head to head gaffling without needing a team.

Oh and steel and gripples are the best we found to not lose controls:
http://www.gripple.com/products/catalogue/agricult...

and they're made in Sheffield.

That harvester in Ecclesall woods was the first night-o i ever did (when my earlier runners were a bit quick. Also, however many times I've run in Ecclesall woods I can still get lost there.

Not sure I could still navigate to that pile of bricks marked as a rock without a map any more.

Maybe a mass start at 3am for people without a team.... I can see that being popular.

well she may be the only one but clara just posted positively about orienteering at 3am. overnight relays are fun.

@Mr. Wonderful: I fix SI controls for SportIdent in NorthAmerica, and I've seen some interesting security attempts. Something somebody did was aircraft-quality wire through the small top holes of the BS-8s, and both ends terminated in loops. Same idea with the bottom holes. The wire is long enough to go around smallish trees. The loops get locked together around the tree with a padlock.
Seemed to work well -- a vandal would have to smash the case to get it off the wire. Mind you, damage might be worse because they can't take it. Also, leave enough wire so that I can replace the battery without having to cut the wire!

I found a rogaine setter's car keys half way between controls near Nganga in 1992. When I was handing them in to Admin, the setter just happened to be standing right there and couldn't believe it. She'd obviously had a pretty crap day when she lost them!