Discussion: Entry to Orienteering
in: Orienteering; General
Oct 15, 2015 5:16 AM
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Orienteering is a difficult sport to organise with events in remote locations and lots of preparations to be made – mapping, course setting, map printing and all the stuff on the day. So it is pretty amazing that we get people willing to volunteer their time to organise and more so in those areas where we get small numbers turning up.
The question often turns to how do we get more people to events? – to make the organisers effort worthwhile and to build the numbers so that the same people don’t have to do all the work. But then there is a problem – if you encourage more people how do you know how many are going to turn up and how do you cater for them?
Now that online entry is widespread and maps can be printed digitally with a few days to spare you might think the question of numbers can be dealt with relatively easily.
Not so. I noticed a comment on one stalwart’s log about people “leaving it until the last day to enter to aggravate the organisers”
A relatively benign comment by me that entering prior to the closing date shouldn’t upset anybody set off a hornets nest.
From the comments left on the log we can infer that organisers (most of the comments are by people who have devoted hundreds if not thousands of hours of volunteer work to the sport) think that people who enter either just before the closing date, or after, or on the day:
• don't really care about orienteering
• Use poor excuses (“sob stories”) to gain entry after the closing date
• Are lazy (don’t even turn up after getting an entry)
• Are incompetent in orienteering (organisers have to wait to collect controls)
• Are incompetent in life (“those who expect to win have to make a considerable commitment in the form of training and acquiring skills. Part of their skill set and preparation is in knowing which events to enter and the closing dates for entry to those events”).
• Are cheats (“canny operators who simply rock up on the day to ensure they're not first start, or can try and pop themselves in front of someone suitably fast”)
• Are aggressive (ringing at 9:30 on the Friday night is a bit hard to take for a Saturday event)
• Are lying (“I doubt that 40% of this weekend's field had something cancelled that allowed them to attend the event”)
• Are anarchists (“Someone decides they don't like a rule or requirement (e.g. entering before a closing date) and suddenly there's a 58 post forum topic on the subject, which goes nowhere”).
• Are ignorant (“casual EODs who think they can just turn up on the day in NOL/Championship/Selection races with no consequences”)
• Disrupt seeding
• Make the sport unfair because pre-entrants don’t know who they are up against
• Cause complaints from others to organisers on that basis
I think the sport has a problem here. If we are trying to encourage and welcome people to our hidden and difficult to access sport we should try and make it as easy as possible. And I don't think what time an organiser receives an entry has any bearing on "fairness".
My solution (Does not apply to events under IOF or IOF-like rules):
Have the on-line entry closing date as close as reasonable for map printing to the date of the event
Offer a discount entry price for early entry
Print extra maps of all courses, and some blanks (5% - 10% of pre-entries)
Allow late entry and entry on the day to all courses
For competitive runs charge a premium to the pre-entry price
For non-competitive/”unofficial” runs just charge the standard fee
For kids all entries should be cheap
Recycle maps if overwhelmed by numerous people turning up
Offer discounted club memberships to newcomers so that they become part of the pre-entry system.
Having said all that it all comes down to the individual organiser. If they want or need to set a firm pre-entry date thats fine - they are the ones doing the work and thanks for that.
The question often turns to how do we get more people to events? – to make the organisers effort worthwhile and to build the numbers so that the same people don’t have to do all the work. But then there is a problem – if you encourage more people how do you know how many are going to turn up and how do you cater for them?
Now that online entry is widespread and maps can be printed digitally with a few days to spare you might think the question of numbers can be dealt with relatively easily.
Not so. I noticed a comment on one stalwart’s log about people “leaving it until the last day to enter to aggravate the organisers”
A relatively benign comment by me that entering prior to the closing date shouldn’t upset anybody set off a hornets nest.
From the comments left on the log we can infer that organisers (most of the comments are by people who have devoted hundreds if not thousands of hours of volunteer work to the sport) think that people who enter either just before the closing date, or after, or on the day:
• don't really care about orienteering
• Use poor excuses (“sob stories”) to gain entry after the closing date
• Are lazy (don’t even turn up after getting an entry)
• Are incompetent in orienteering (organisers have to wait to collect controls)
• Are incompetent in life (“those who expect to win have to make a considerable commitment in the form of training and acquiring skills. Part of their skill set and preparation is in knowing which events to enter and the closing dates for entry to those events”).
• Are cheats (“canny operators who simply rock up on the day to ensure they're not first start, or can try and pop themselves in front of someone suitably fast”)
• Are aggressive (ringing at 9:30 on the Friday night is a bit hard to take for a Saturday event)
• Are lying (“I doubt that 40% of this weekend's field had something cancelled that allowed them to attend the event”)
• Are anarchists (“Someone decides they don't like a rule or requirement (e.g. entering before a closing date) and suddenly there's a 58 post forum topic on the subject, which goes nowhere”).
• Are ignorant (“casual EODs who think they can just turn up on the day in NOL/Championship/Selection races with no consequences”)
• Disrupt seeding
• Make the sport unfair because pre-entrants don’t know who they are up against
• Cause complaints from others to organisers on that basis
I think the sport has a problem here. If we are trying to encourage and welcome people to our hidden and difficult to access sport we should try and make it as easy as possible. And I don't think what time an organiser receives an entry has any bearing on "fairness".
My solution (Does not apply to events under IOF or IOF-like rules):
Have the on-line entry closing date as close as reasonable for map printing to the date of the event
Offer a discount entry price for early entry
Print extra maps of all courses, and some blanks (5% - 10% of pre-entries)
Allow late entry and entry on the day to all courses
For competitive runs charge a premium to the pre-entry price
For non-competitive/”unofficial” runs just charge the standard fee
For kids all entries should be cheap
Recycle maps if overwhelmed by numerous people turning up
Offer discounted club memberships to newcomers so that they become part of the pre-entry system.
Having said all that it all comes down to the individual organiser. If they want or need to set a firm pre-entry date thats fine - they are the ones doing the work and thanks for that.
Oct 15, 2015 6:05 AM
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Aggravate was probably the wrong word. I don't think it's intentional but from an organisational perspective, I'm sure the organisers get a bit 'concerned' or maybe 'anxious' with low numbers just a day or two before the entry closing date only to have half the people enter on the last day. As you have said, it's a lot of work to put on an event to have few people turn up.
Also I have found that it doesn't matter how close or how far out you set the closing date, people will still enter at the last minute.
Also I have found that it doesn't matter how close or how far out you set the closing date, people will still enter at the last minute.
Oct 15, 2015 3:40 PM
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bmay:
Ideas ...
1) If you set an entry deadline of 11:59 pm, Friday night, then don't be upset or bothered if half the field decides to enter at 11:58 pm on Friday night. Humans procrastinate and should be fully entitled to do so. If the organizers give a deadline, then don't expect participants to do anything other than enter before that deadline.
2) If, for some reason, you want people to enter early, then offer them an incentive to do so. But, keep in mind, a good chunk of the entrants will still fire up their computers at 11:58 pm on Friday night if you give them the opportunity.
3) Late entry is up to the organizers. If you are bothered by late entries, then
a) Turn them down - simply tell participants to sign up before the deadline next time.
b) Attach a fee (e.g., $100 or $500 or $10,000) to late entry. That should send the message that late entry is a PITA and participants will get the message.
4) If you offer "on-the-day" entry (which I don't really understand given that pre-registration is so easy), then offer it on your terms ...
a) Limited maps, first-come-first serve
b) Inferior maps, print them in black and white if you want
c) Last starts, unofficial results.
5) As an organizer, define "course closure" explicitly. Simply let participants know how long the courses will be open and then start collecting controls when that time arrives. For local events, course closure can be 3 hrs after the first start (for example) and those who expect to take a long time can show up and start early. Those who expect to take less time, can start later but will have less time to do the course.
1) If you set an entry deadline of 11:59 pm, Friday night, then don't be upset or bothered if half the field decides to enter at 11:58 pm on Friday night. Humans procrastinate and should be fully entitled to do so. If the organizers give a deadline, then don't expect participants to do anything other than enter before that deadline.
2) If, for some reason, you want people to enter early, then offer them an incentive to do so. But, keep in mind, a good chunk of the entrants will still fire up their computers at 11:58 pm on Friday night if you give them the opportunity.
3) Late entry is up to the organizers. If you are bothered by late entries, then
a) Turn them down - simply tell participants to sign up before the deadline next time.
b) Attach a fee (e.g., $100 or $500 or $10,000) to late entry. That should send the message that late entry is a PITA and participants will get the message.
4) If you offer "on-the-day" entry (which I don't really understand given that pre-registration is so easy), then offer it on your terms ...
a) Limited maps, first-come-first serve
b) Inferior maps, print them in black and white if you want
c) Last starts, unofficial results.
5) As an organizer, define "course closure" explicitly. Simply let participants know how long the courses will be open and then start collecting controls when that time arrives. For local events, course closure can be 3 hrs after the first start (for example) and those who expect to take a long time can show up and start early. Those who expect to take less time, can start later but will have less time to do the course.
Oct 15, 2015 4:09 PM
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Bash:
Well said, Bmay. For the most part, it's a volunteer-operated sport and there has to be a balance between customer service and volunteer happiness if the sport is going to continue - more so than a commercial event company.
Fees and registration/refund deadlines should be reasonable but once they are established, stick to them politely and don't let anyone make you feel guilty. People will be appreciative when you show the same respect for their policies when they organize an event.
Make late entries expensive or unattractive if you're willing to accommodate them or impossible if you're not. Then accept entries happily whenever you have said you are willing to accept them. You're the one who made the rules.
Accept the fact that some people will wait to see the weather forecast or find out if their friend is coming to town or see whether their kid wins in her baseball or hockey tournament. Stay on their radar and maybe they'll make your event a priority next time.
Fees and registration/refund deadlines should be reasonable but once they are established, stick to them politely and don't let anyone make you feel guilty. People will be appreciative when you show the same respect for their policies when they organize an event.
Make late entries expensive or unattractive if you're willing to accommodate them or impossible if you're not. Then accept entries happily whenever you have said you are willing to accept them. You're the one who made the rules.
Accept the fact that some people will wait to see the weather forecast or find out if their friend is coming to town or see whether their kid wins in her baseball or hockey tournament. Stay on their radar and maybe they'll make your event a priority next time.
Oct 15, 2015 5:14 PM
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bmay:
Some other ideas ...
1) Fewer courses makes event management easier (e.g., printing extra maps).
2) If you offer "on-the-day" entry, then you have to print lots of maps, which means there is guaranteed to be a fair bit of waste. I recently organized an event where I printed maps for roughly double the number pre-registered runners. It's always a "guess" and best to be over-prepared than under-prepared. But, it sure feels like a waste tossing unused maps after the event.
1) Fewer courses makes event management easier (e.g., printing extra maps).
2) If you offer "on-the-day" entry, then you have to print lots of maps, which means there is guaranteed to be a fair bit of waste. I recently organized an event where I printed maps for roughly double the number pre-registered runners. It's always a "guess" and best to be over-prepared than under-prepared. But, it sure feels like a waste tossing unused maps after the event.
Oct 15, 2015 5:50 PM
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Bash:
DontGetLost does not accept event day entries for our team Raids or for traditional orienteering events with individual start times posted in advance.
At events where we *do* accept race day entries at a premium price, the web page warns that only 10 extra maps will be printed. Those events only offer one or two courses. Agreed, it feels wrong to recycle too many maps.
At events where we *do* accept race day entries at a premium price, the web page warns that only 10 extra maps will be printed. Those events only offer one or two courses. Agreed, it feels wrong to recycle too many maps.
Oct 15, 2015 5:59 PM
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Seconding Bash's comment about refunds. Have a policy and state it clearly. Things happen; people get sick or injured, work intrudes, etc. If I know I can get at least a partial refund, I might be more likely to sign up early.
Oct 16, 2015 10:36 AM
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OK, I bite at the troll. ;-)
I can think of many good reasons why someone might desire to make a late entry. But why are so many late entries from the same people, time after time. The cases I am thinking off are basically a symptom of inability to plan ahead. In my less charitable moments I have been known to observe that a number of these examples have rarely been seen organising an event themselves. But i shouldn't complain at that. If they can't organise themselves... perhaps its better they don't organise others. Over the last couple of years the problem seems to have receded. I put this down to on-line entry via Eventor. A firm entry deadline enforced by the computer seems to reduce the belief that one can push the deadline through personal contact.
And on the subject of late entry. Phil Cicero, I am still waiting for the late entry fee for the 1998 Victorian Championships. The first and last time I accepted a promise of paying later.
I can think of many good reasons why someone might desire to make a late entry. But why are so many late entries from the same people, time after time. The cases I am thinking off are basically a symptom of inability to plan ahead. In my less charitable moments I have been known to observe that a number of these examples have rarely been seen organising an event themselves. But i shouldn't complain at that. If they can't organise themselves... perhaps its better they don't organise others. Over the last couple of years the problem seems to have receded. I put this down to on-line entry via Eventor. A firm entry deadline enforced by the computer seems to reduce the belief that one can push the deadline through personal contact.
And on the subject of late entry. Phil Cicero, I am still waiting for the late entry fee for the 1998 Victorian Championships. The first and last time I accepted a promise of paying later.
Oct 16, 2015 5:31 PM
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Bash:
You're right; some people are simply unable or unwilling to plan ahead, and we see the same names time after time. That's not evil; it's just the way they are. We should be grateful if they choose not to organize events. Alas, some of them do. Something else to consider is that planning ahead has become "old school" in some circles. People just text their friends and figure out plans on the fly.
So we can't change the behaviour; we can only choose how to respond to it. As you point out, online registration systems with clearly written policies and automated deadlines go a long way. Beyond that, the registrar has to be willing to stand behind the policies when contacted personally. (Unless there is something extraordinary like a cancer diagnosis, which happened just before a sold-out event and I gave full refunds even though the couple didn't ask.)
Having said that, there is a responsibility on the part of participants too. In 10 years of managing registrations for events ranging from local training events to large adventure runs to the North American O Champs, I've observed that experienced orienteers (albeit only a tiny percentage of us) are more likely than, say, adventure racers to request special favours or registration rule exemptions. The same people probably wouldn't contact the organizers of a commercial 10K run with similar questions.
Perhaps it is because so many of us know each other. Perhaps it's because many of us are volunteer event organizers too and feel like we are insiders, forgetting that a huge percentage of attendees are also "insiders". Some people have more flexible policies when they operate events and feel that other clubs should do things the same way.
My main position in this thread has been that registrars need to establish appropriate policies and stick to them without being annoyed by late entrants who have the right to enter any time before our deadline. The registrar role can be lots of fun if you take control.
However, it's not just up to the registrars. Let's promote a culture in our sport where we as participants accept *other* club's policies, whether or not they're the same as ours. Read the policies before you sign up. Understand that if you turn your ankle, you may miss out on a few events, some of which you've already paid for - one of the risks of an athletic life. Think twice before clicking "send" on that email to that volunteer event registrar explaining why your special need can't be met by their registration system and policies. Sure, there are truly extraordinary situations - is this one of them? The vast majority of us are already good about this, fortunately.
So we can't change the behaviour; we can only choose how to respond to it. As you point out, online registration systems with clearly written policies and automated deadlines go a long way. Beyond that, the registrar has to be willing to stand behind the policies when contacted personally. (Unless there is something extraordinary like a cancer diagnosis, which happened just before a sold-out event and I gave full refunds even though the couple didn't ask.)
Having said that, there is a responsibility on the part of participants too. In 10 years of managing registrations for events ranging from local training events to large adventure runs to the North American O Champs, I've observed that experienced orienteers (albeit only a tiny percentage of us) are more likely than, say, adventure racers to request special favours or registration rule exemptions. The same people probably wouldn't contact the organizers of a commercial 10K run with similar questions.
Perhaps it is because so many of us know each other. Perhaps it's because many of us are volunteer event organizers too and feel like we are insiders, forgetting that a huge percentage of attendees are also "insiders". Some people have more flexible policies when they operate events and feel that other clubs should do things the same way.
My main position in this thread has been that registrars need to establish appropriate policies and stick to them without being annoyed by late entrants who have the right to enter any time before our deadline. The registrar role can be lots of fun if you take control.
However, it's not just up to the registrars. Let's promote a culture in our sport where we as participants accept *other* club's policies, whether or not they're the same as ours. Read the policies before you sign up. Understand that if you turn your ankle, you may miss out on a few events, some of which you've already paid for - one of the risks of an athletic life. Think twice before clicking "send" on that email to that volunteer event registrar explaining why your special need can't be met by their registration system and policies. Sure, there are truly extraordinary situations - is this one of them? The vast majority of us are already good about this, fortunately.
Oct 16, 2015 11:54 PM
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So far the comments seem to confirm that our sport has a problem. People are complaining about late entries or entries on the day and how inconvenient that is. Sure, I get that. However, what it shows is that there is a demand out there. Even though we have a sport which takes place in quite remote areas; even though we try and impose strict entry deadlines, some people want to try and orienteer at short notice. That's a good thing and some of us are willing to cater for it.
Modern life is busy. Family, Kids, Work, Accident, Injury, Other Activities and Sports all get in the way of planning to enter an obscure sport a week or weeks in advance. Newcomers or the less-than-totally-committed are the most likely people to fall in that category. Good events ("A" meets, Badge events, Carnival/Holiday multidays) are our most likely product that is going to hook these people and provide us with our next tranche of volunteers. It would be good if we could offer these people a good experience when they turn up.
Modern life is busy. Family, Kids, Work, Accident, Injury, Other Activities and Sports all get in the way of planning to enter an obscure sport a week or weeks in advance. Newcomers or the less-than-totally-committed are the most likely people to fall in that category. Good events ("A" meets, Badge events, Carnival/Holiday multidays) are our most likely product that is going to hook these people and provide us with our next tranche of volunteers. It would be good if we could offer these people a good experience when they turn up.
Oct 17, 2015 1:05 AM
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I have struggled to stop myself from returning to this topic - I inadvertently started a parallel thread earlier in the year which was jumped upon, and I was roundly berated for that! But there are differing experiences and perceptions at play, clearly, from the above comments. Hence I feel I must add some balance.
Sorry to disagree O-ing about the "newcomers and less than totally committed" angle. They are the ones who will come and do an Enter on the Day without complaint and that is why I disagree with you also about hiking up prices for EoD - that is an excellent opportunity to promote not deter because of price. We offer them a good experience when they come and EoD so that they will be encouraged to enter "A" meets in the future.
The bulk of late entries are serial offenders and long standing participants (often elite/former elite) who get slack and think that they are the only one to have forgotten or had a function cancelled - ever - or that we must be very grateful that they are coming to our event. Just maybe the world will not fall in if they miss an event? Life does exist in the outside world too.
And I am surprised to see you refer to your sport as "obscure".
(Good thing tRicky is MTBO currently - he'd have gone up in smoke by now).
Sorry to disagree O-ing about the "newcomers and less than totally committed" angle. They are the ones who will come and do an Enter on the Day without complaint and that is why I disagree with you also about hiking up prices for EoD - that is an excellent opportunity to promote not deter because of price. We offer them a good experience when they come and EoD so that they will be encouraged to enter "A" meets in the future.
The bulk of late entries are serial offenders and long standing participants (often elite/former elite) who get slack and think that they are the only one to have forgotten or had a function cancelled - ever - or that we must be very grateful that they are coming to our event. Just maybe the world will not fall in if they miss an event? Life does exist in the outside world too.
And I am surprised to see you refer to your sport as "obscure".
(Good thing tRicky is MTBO currently - he'd have gone up in smoke by now).
Oct 17, 2015 3:33 AM
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Modern life is so busy, in fact, that 99% of people plan ahead. Family, work, sporting and social commitments have to be scheduled (these days usually via smart phone) so why not put orienteering pre-entry deadlines in your diary/phone? Or, actually save time by doing your entry straight away instead of putting a reminder on your phone! It only takes about the same time with online entry.
The best response we have had from newcomers in WA is when we actually asked them to pre-enter, which we did last year through a social media 'what's on in Perth' website. This resulted in regular turnouts of 5+ complete newcomers right throughout our street-O series. Currently we're planning 'Spooks in the Park' and have had a great pre-entry response. I don't know much about the original 'Spooks' event held last year in O-ing's home state, but I'd imagine that it had to have been promoted with pre-entry, and I believe it had a good response.
Agree with all your points tinytoes, including regret about contributing again.
The best response we have had from newcomers in WA is when we actually asked them to pre-enter, which we did last year through a social media 'what's on in Perth' website. This resulted in regular turnouts of 5+ complete newcomers right throughout our street-O series. Currently we're planning 'Spooks in the Park' and have had a great pre-entry response. I don't know much about the original 'Spooks' event held last year in O-ing's home state, but I'd imagine that it had to have been promoted with pre-entry, and I believe it had a good response.
Agree with all your points tinytoes, including regret about contributing again.
Oct 17, 2015 4:00 AM
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Bash:
Yikes, now I'm wondering about the original discussion, which I know nothing about! :) O-ing kicked this off by observing that some organizers get upset about late entries. He and several others here, including me, suggested that organizers should decide when they'll accept entries to their event and how much it will cost on which date, and then be content with whatever people do, as long as they stay within those parameters. Whether that includes race day entry or not, and whether that costs more is up to the organizers. I don't think this is a problem in our sport.
Oct 17, 2015 6:29 AM
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Bash you really don't want to look at the original discussion! But I think you will find that O-ing's main concern is not late entries, but to force organisers to accept competitive entries on the day at major events - he has been pushing this line for several years.
Oct 17, 2015 8:29 AM
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OK that is not right. What I have been pushing for decades is that when people turn up at an event they get welcomed rather than denied entry point blank, given a run but times not published or recorded, classified "unofficial" or "non-competitive", made to run short/easy courses, told that appropraite courses for their age/ability are "not available", made to wait for a start till all the "official" runners have started, told to exit the finish chute in case they interfere with the proper process, etc etc.
If you continually only accept valid entries from committed orienteers - how do you ever expect to grow the sport?
If you continually only accept valid entries from committed orienteers - how do you ever expect to grow the sport?
Oct 17, 2015 8:31 AM
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And what I didn't appreciate was the thoroughly negative attitudes some organsisers have to those who are not fully committed. I didn't think it was so specifically directed; I thought it was just the usual chaos/demands of organising a complex event: that dawning realisation was what prompted the post in the first place.
Oct 17, 2015 12:34 PM
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This thread was spawned from a single comment in a personal log which was in reference to a state championship event. I don't know about other places in the world, but if you want to make sure that virtually no newcomers come and try to enter on the day, advertising something as a championship event is all it takes.
If you don't care enough about a state champs race to enter by the deadline (even if you're not 100% sure you'll make the start line) but want to make an issue about not being an official competitor if you enter late/on the day, I think you've got an entitlement issue.
On the last day / in the last hour? Well, it's the organisers' job to set the deadline at a time that doesn't inconvenience them. (And they should expect many people to leave it to the last minute).
Local low key events, totally different situation.
If you don't care enough about a state champs race to enter by the deadline (even if you're not 100% sure you'll make the start line) but want to make an issue about not being an official competitor if you enter late/on the day, I think you've got an entitlement issue.
On the last day / in the last hour? Well, it's the organisers' job to set the deadline at a time that doesn't inconvenience them. (And they should expect many people to leave it to the last minute).
Local low key events, totally different situation.
Oct 17, 2015 6:53 PM
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Bash:
Ah, thanks for the context. Some comments were referring to things beyond this discussion so I figured there was more.
I have lots of popcorn so why not jump in? I'm too new to that topic to be bored with it yet. :)
I'm putting on an event tomorrow that offers race day entry, which was my choice. We've printed a bunch of extra maps that will become scrap paper, and extra control descriptions that I'll use to start our fireplace. Our refreshment person is baking homemade goodies (but doesn't know how many to make) and buying apple cider that has an expiry date. But we're doing it - for this event, anyway. Having said that:
1) If I were to stumble upon the Ontario Mountain Biking Championships, I would go ride somewhere else. I wouldn't dream that they would allow me to enter, let alone ride in a competitive category. I wouldn't consider them unwelcoming; I would consider them professional. If I could jump into a competitive category in a provincial championship with a few minutes notice, I would be concerned that the sport must be in a desperate state. If they smiled, politely explained that riders entered in advance, and offered me a flyer of upcoming races with a website, I would happily take it and think about trying one of their races in future. Maybe others would take it badly but I find it hard to imagine a reasonable person reacting negatively.
2) As the president of Orienteering Ontario, I'm as keen as anyone to encourage new people to try the sport. However, I don't think every volunteer event organizer should be required to try to grow the sport by planning every event around the possibility of racers showing up unannounced. There are lots of ways to grow the sport and attract pre-registrations: targeted marketing, novice courses, pre-race nav clinics, etc. Most of the people we're trying to attract are familiar with entering races or family sport programs in advance. Offer race day entry for your event if you wish - but don't condemn organizers who choose to focus their energies on providing a great experience for a confirmed group of racers. If we knew exactly how many people were coming tomorrow, we could serve even fancier home-baked snacks. :)
Some of the aggravation in this thread is directed not at newcomers but at regular orienteers who knew about an event and entered late. That's where my comments above - and Bmay's - apply. Decide when you'll accept entries, set a price and be content with whatever happens within those parameters. Don't feel forced to bend your rules and don't feel guilty about it. (It's OK to say, "I'm sorry" though, even if you don't mean it. I'm Canadian so I kind of have to.)
I have lots of popcorn so why not jump in? I'm too new to that topic to be bored with it yet. :)
I'm putting on an event tomorrow that offers race day entry, which was my choice. We've printed a bunch of extra maps that will become scrap paper, and extra control descriptions that I'll use to start our fireplace. Our refreshment person is baking homemade goodies (but doesn't know how many to make) and buying apple cider that has an expiry date. But we're doing it - for this event, anyway. Having said that:
1) If I were to stumble upon the Ontario Mountain Biking Championships, I would go ride somewhere else. I wouldn't dream that they would allow me to enter, let alone ride in a competitive category. I wouldn't consider them unwelcoming; I would consider them professional. If I could jump into a competitive category in a provincial championship with a few minutes notice, I would be concerned that the sport must be in a desperate state. If they smiled, politely explained that riders entered in advance, and offered me a flyer of upcoming races with a website, I would happily take it and think about trying one of their races in future. Maybe others would take it badly but I find it hard to imagine a reasonable person reacting negatively.
2) As the president of Orienteering Ontario, I'm as keen as anyone to encourage new people to try the sport. However, I don't think every volunteer event organizer should be required to try to grow the sport by planning every event around the possibility of racers showing up unannounced. There are lots of ways to grow the sport and attract pre-registrations: targeted marketing, novice courses, pre-race nav clinics, etc. Most of the people we're trying to attract are familiar with entering races or family sport programs in advance. Offer race day entry for your event if you wish - but don't condemn organizers who choose to focus their energies on providing a great experience for a confirmed group of racers. If we knew exactly how many people were coming tomorrow, we could serve even fancier home-baked snacks. :)
Some of the aggravation in this thread is directed not at newcomers but at regular orienteers who knew about an event and entered late. That's where my comments above - and Bmay's - apply. Decide when you'll accept entries, set a price and be content with whatever happens within those parameters. Don't feel forced to bend your rules and don't feel guilty about it. (It's OK to say, "I'm sorry" though, even if you don't mean it. I'm Canadian so I kind of have to.)
Oct 18, 2015 10:29 PM
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I don't think every volunteer event organizer should be required to try to grow the sport by planning every event around the possibility of racers showing up unannounced.
I think this is pretty important. There should be a difference between Champs races and other races and one of them is the seriousness of the preparations and the people who go out in the terrain. I *love* having open courses available that I can enter on-the-day, but I wouldn't expect to be able to enter competitive classes, especially at a champs event, on the day. Set a hard deadline for competitive entries and respond like a Canadian to those who try to sweet talk their way in. :-)
I think this is pretty important. There should be a difference between Champs races and other races and one of them is the seriousness of the preparations and the people who go out in the terrain. I *love* having open courses available that I can enter on-the-day, but I wouldn't expect to be able to enter competitive classes, especially at a champs event, on the day. Set a hard deadline for competitive entries and respond like a Canadian to those who try to sweet talk their way in. :-)
Oct 19, 2015 1:06 AM
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That was the basic premise of my response - I am more than happy to allow non-competitive/age group/whatever entries to championship events because in my view they are meant to be taken seriously so some kind of entry procedure should be followed (to allow for start lists and whatever else is necessary to run the event fairly to all involved), but that tone was bombed by O-ing.
As it turned out, the event I originally commented on, I incorrectly stated on the weekend that they had allowed late entries despite saying in the event info that they wouldn't but I was mistaken. The original comment was regarding the vast number of people entering on the last day (roughly 40% of total entries) giving event organisers a few anxious moments about numbers but given that was the entry deadline, well I can't really argue with it.
From an organising perspective, it's probably best to not look at entry numbers until after entries have closed but it's hard to not look on a daily basis to see how numbers are shaping up!
As it turned out, the event I originally commented on, I incorrectly stated on the weekend that they had allowed late entries despite saying in the event info that they wouldn't but I was mistaken. The original comment was regarding the vast number of people entering on the last day (roughly 40% of total entries) giving event organisers a few anxious moments about numbers but given that was the entry deadline, well I can't really argue with it.
From an organising perspective, it's probably best to not look at entry numbers until after entries have closed but it's hard to not look on a daily basis to see how numbers are shaping up!
Oct 19, 2015 2:38 AM
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Bash:
Or hourly, depending on how OCD the organizer is. :)
Cristina, I love that: "respond like a Canadian".
Cristina, I love that: "respond like a Canadian".
Oct 19, 2015 9:31 AM
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Almost all the events run by our club are enter on the day format for everyone. Occasionally we run out of maps. More often someone has pretty scrap paper. One Treasurer insisted on presenting his monthly report on the back of unused event maps. More than once a few round the meeting table were seen perusing and assessing the course rather than the budget.
But when we have a pre-entry, there is a good reason for it. A serious relay event is a case in point. The one time I allowed enter-on-the day to a pleading family (the usual serial offenders) I found myself trying to find the correct maps for the team just five minutes before the start. Of course, I got them in the wrong order. The result was a crying child coming back to the start having tried to run a hard course. The point of this is that orienteering organisation often feels like a tight rope walk between chaos and order. One mis-step and you are on the wrong side of the line. The surest path to that mis-step is to take on unexpected tasks in a hurry.
So now when I am organising something like a hagaby event, only pre-entry will get a hagaby course. Anyone who turns up on the day is pointed to the self-service table where there are maps for an unofficial score event. If that is not friendly enough, then the issue is that one person is organising a hagaby. More willing organisers would be fantastic. Perhaps we need to do all we can to encourage would-be organisers? Allowing them the power to constrain the level of chaos at their event might be a good start.
But when we have a pre-entry, there is a good reason for it. A serious relay event is a case in point. The one time I allowed enter-on-the day to a pleading family (the usual serial offenders) I found myself trying to find the correct maps for the team just five minutes before the start. Of course, I got them in the wrong order. The result was a crying child coming back to the start having tried to run a hard course. The point of this is that orienteering organisation often feels like a tight rope walk between chaos and order. One mis-step and you are on the wrong side of the line. The surest path to that mis-step is to take on unexpected tasks in a hurry.
So now when I am organising something like a hagaby event, only pre-entry will get a hagaby course. Anyone who turns up on the day is pointed to the self-service table where there are maps for an unofficial score event. If that is not friendly enough, then the issue is that one person is organising a hagaby. More willing organisers would be fantastic. Perhaps we need to do all we can to encourage would-be organisers? Allowing them the power to constrain the level of chaos at their event might be a good start.
This discussion thread is closed.