Register | username: pw: 
Attackpoint - performance and training tools for orienteering athletes

Discussion: wow, that is a serous worko...

in: matzah ball; matzah ball > 2016-01-27

Jan 27, 2016 6:48 PM # 
wow, that is a serious workout, nice job!
Jan 27, 2016 10:43 PM # 
matzah ball:
yeah thanks for trying to put a nice spin on it, but felt seriously exhausted for no apparent reason, was wildly inconsistent and didn't hit target times. other than that, it was a nice job. Thought about heading out to the track in the pm to try again, but I guess the best thing is just to get some rest.
Jan 28, 2016 1:17 AM # 
Do you know what each of these workouts is supposed to be accomplishing or are you just following a sheet? The former makes it much easier to "save" a workout. For example, the presence of an 83 plus the full lap rest makes me think these were supposed to be repetitions rather than intervals. Switching to 12x200@43 200R would have accomplished the same thing and probably a lot more doable on a day things weren't quite right. On the other hand, if these really were supposed to be intervals, you could have knocked them all the way back to 93 and still been at a pace that would get the job done.
Jan 28, 2016 8:53 AM # 
matzah ball:
yes they were reps. Interesting, it was only after 200 that things became really ugly. Intuitively, I agree with your flexible approach. But the last 2 sessions had been all strides, and it was an opportunity to get a longer distance rep at race pace, the idea being to start building up to running race pace for longer distances, since I've got a couple of 1500's in 4 and 6 weeks. In any case, it doesn't seem like wasted effort to find out what happens when you have nothing.
Jan 28, 2016 1:58 PM # 
A couple of thoughts to add. It looks like a race pace simulation work out to me and a question I'd ask myself is "why the lap to lap variability?" eg Did mental factors impinge on body or vice versa?
In general a goal should be to hone into race pace with 2 principles in mind:
1) reduce lap to lap variation eg for 200 meters +/- 1sec and 400 +/- 2 sec would be a good goal (for me biggest issue for not hitting 800/1500 times is pace drift mid race) and
2) per my Russian Olympic coach, being religious about the recovery interval (time rather than distance) is more important than the speed you run. Hope that makes sens.
Jan 28, 2016 2:41 PM # 
What was your target time? Are you using Vdot for paces?

Ps no sarcasm in my original post ... 4x800m Is a serious workout
Jan 28, 2016 7:35 PM # 
matzah ball:
why the variation? Unexpected and unexplained fatigue, mostly physical. Target time w 85, w about 2 min rest. which is just a hypothetical race pace goal. Appreciate comments, but makes my head spin. just want to go out and run.

Too many variables to use target times and rest as race predictors. thats why theres a 800 TT coming up. I sure hope I feel better for that one.
Jan 28, 2016 8:06 PM # 
why make it complicated . . . trust the JD tables and use recent race time -> VDOT -> training pace for an R workout. Easy!
Jan 28, 2016 8:48 PM # 
Not so fast :-) JD is fine for I pace, however I find underestimates R pace for middle distance training!
So my rule of thumb for R is train at targeted race pace, with strict recovery that over time reduces to equal the work interval.
Rudy what is your target for the 1500m? Then 1/2 of that should be your 800m target and 1/4 of that your 200m rep time.
Jan 28, 2016 10:54 PM # 
matzah ball:
Yes, I agree w your assessment of JD R paces! I'm hoping 5:30 would be a modest goal, only a 5:56 mile, still, a track 1500 is a different animal for me. Half of that would be 2:45. 400, 82.5. 200, 41.25.
Thanks for giving me something to hang my hat on for now.
Jan 28, 2016 11:01 PM # 
matzah ball:
Billh, one reason the VDOT tables dont work for me is that I am a different runner at shorter distances - I'm sure you can relate. Also, not good w temperature extremes. Also, its unclear to me how to translate road miles of varying up/down proportions into VDOT tables that are likely set up for track events.
Jan 29, 2016 2:13 AM # 
JD is the coach of the masses and i think his tables are based on averages of thousands of runners across the age and gender ranges. .. so probably he will get a beginner like me on the ballpark ... so i can just relax and run ... not like you advanced guys who get over one second !
Jan 29, 2016 3:47 AM # 
Actually, if you read JD's book and not just his tables, he specifically says that R-pace has to be lowered (as in, faster) if you are training for the 800.
Jan 29, 2016 4:49 PM # 
I am reading JD 3rd edition but didn't see that recommendation, though I just browsed the 800 section. But Rudy is training for the 1500 so that doesn't apply. And I have read that section thoroughly, and no mention of lowering the R pace for 1500 training.

But all that is beside the point. JD is only a guide based on averages (and no one is average!), can't replace individual coaching. It probably should be tweaked for individuals specializing in a certain distance. But for me, I'm trusting him to get me in the right ballpark.
Jan 30, 2016 12:24 PM # 
Read the 3rd ed 800m section ... big emphasis on 400 type vs 1500 type who run 800. But R pace same for both ... have to compare to R pace in 1500 plan ... I bet the y are same. For same vdot ...
Jan 30, 2016 4:29 PM # 
Yeah, looks like he changed his terminology between editions 2 & 3 (I never bothered to re-read the 800m section in ed3, because I never race that short). He now calls the 800-specific R paces "Fast Reps" (FR-pace) and the traditional R is re-branded as "economy reps" (table p149). I think a miler would do well to throw in some FR training, which is about 8 seconds per lap faster than R for folks our speed.
Jan 30, 2016 5:18 PM # 
OK, I see the FR vs R paces in Table 9.1 in the 800m chapter. Rudy's target of 85 400m for an R workout corresponds to a current 800m time of 2:34 but if it were done as an FR workout, it would correspond to 2:50. so a big difference in what type of workout. I'm assuming these were more like FR! I like how JD calls the regular R workout "economy reps", nice.

back in the main vdot table 5.2, an economy R pace 85 rep corresponds to a VDOT of 52, so that is a 1500m time of 5:13 (5:38 mile pace) in table 5.1. coming at it the other way, a 1500m time of 5:30, rudy's goal, is vdot 49 in table 5.1, which is an economy R rep of 88 for a 400m rep.

what is interesting to me in the big picture of self-coaching, is whether to base training intensity on goal race pace or current race pace. JD clearly falls in the latter, saying repeatedly one has to earn a higher vdot with a faster race time. but sounds like plenty of experienced runners and coaches opt for training paces based on goal race pace. interesting. have to say I like the JD approach. maybe it is different for longer vs mid-distance, and JD seems a little biased toward the long distance.
Jan 30, 2016 5:47 PM # 
Thanks all-that makes a lot of sense! So l reached for my JD only to realize that it is a 1st Ed from c1998! Promptly ordered 3rd ed fromAmazon.
Anyhow, I like the JD philosophy for longer distance racing, however for 800/1500 I stand by the "target race time" approach, as long as it's realistic and with the proviso "don't burn yourself out".

Please login to add a message.