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Discussion: decided i need to work on m...

in: BP; BP > 2016-03-15

Mar 16, 2016 3:52 PM # 
matzah ball:
decided i need to work on my speed - 32 for 200 is goal...can you suggest anything? fastest time lately 35-36 in series of repeats. 36.5 x 2 for 400TT. I was thinking maybe 100's, work up to 15-16s then try to stretch it out?
Mar 17, 2016 1:25 AM # 
Rudi my thoughts as follows. First would be really good to get an all out 200m time for you (warm up well, drills etc), then I would aim for speed work at 90% of that that time. Absolutely fine to break it down to smaller segments even say 50m repeats in order to max explosive power systems- with complete recovery between reps. However, don't run these at more that 95% of your max speed (injury risk). Speed endurance work would then be at 80% max with generous but not complete recovery. Alternatively especially if your goal is speed endurance for middle distance, I would go and do a 400m TT and use similar % to above. This has less intrinsic risk of injury especially hammy tears. If you want company to do this- come on up :-)
Happy to opine more, but hope this is a start.
Mar 17, 2016 1:09 PM # 
matzah ball:
Yes, I do want to improve my speed, but primarily for application to middle distance events - don't think I'll be a sprinter with your range. (not sure 'explosive power systems' would ever apply to me, lol). My conundrum is that the times i run my fastest 200, 400, 800 I don't really feel I am overly stressing my musculature, my mechanics and power for speed just don't seem right, and of course at the tail end, oxygenation is a limiter. So your suggestion of doing the shorter intervals at a slightly reduced but constantly maintained speed is a good one to explore the mechanics. And maybe I should do some more strength training. It would be great to do some workouts together. Last night I thought about your 1:08 400, and thought my 1:13 wasn't that far behind...until I did a mental calculation of the distance that would separate us at the finish - roughly 30 meters! But you do a lot of training at reduced paces , following your dictum above , so I shouldn't let that intimidate me.
Mar 17, 2016 11:40 PM # 
matzah ball:
What do you think about doing 200m tt every week? way to monitor progress, keep focus, and try to put it all together, at minimal energy expenditure.
Mar 18, 2016 11:44 AM # 
Don't :-) for reasons of injury risk and mental burnout, also considering that times under race conditions vs TT conditions will be faster and hence more reflective of top speed.
So yes do these as part of racing season, noting that the track star program only advocates for TTs (200, 400, 600) as a gating point for each new phase of training. Right now I use my summer perfs (28.9, 63.0, 2:30 for 200, 400 and 800m respectively) noting that my current best indoor times (30.2, 64.9) are a little slower to serve as a basis for training targets. I won't race any of these distances until May. What I will do is a 600m time trial or two to calibrate for 800 pace and see how things stack up against my Feb 600 effort (1:46).
Bottom line is save your energy for race time, but use an occasional 3/4 distance TT effort to gauge progress/ability to hit goal times.
Last thought is re strength training, which sprinters focus on especially in the off season. This certainly helps the speed power component, however coaches recognize the need to ramp it down starting at about 6 weeks to go before race season, given the fatigue factor that comes with strength work.
Mar 18, 2016 2:21 PM # 
matzah ball:
Those summer times are sterling, if not golden! its really a pleasure reading them, letting the eye and mind take in each one:) Having run those, you can be conservative and just concentrate on building a good pathway back, and that works for you because the training builds up in a progression over long periods of time. Would you do anything differently, however, if you had never hit those times, but aspired to, and your faith in the logical application of training progression was limited?:) The counsel for patience and caution is well-taken, but I'm not sure it applies equally in all cases.
Mar 19, 2016 8:59 PM # 
Thanks! You make a good point about running within some predetermined bounds, a lot of which is determined by our physiological makeup. There's a part of me that says, depending on your ultimate goal, go for it and see what happens, but the prudent part of me says Injury/burnout/disappointment potentially awaits unless you have the disciple to know when to back off.
So to answer your question, I likely wouldn't do anything different than what I've been doing- using 400m racing to get the legs ready for a decent 800 or even (gosh!) 1500m in the outdoor season.
While I have violated the following rule, "never race a 100 sprint", I have done so and paid the price. Doing 100m rolling starts to get the legs turning over and not worrying about actual time is a good thing to do.
Turning back to you, what distance do you most want to excel at? What are your relative strengths vis a vis top sped, endurance speed and plain endurance? How much do each of these contribute to achieving a goal of optimizing specific race performance? How important is it for you to expand your racing range? Lastly what do you enjoy doing?
Again, some personal reflections and I hope these are helpful.
Mar 19, 2016 10:45 PM # 
matzah ball:
Yes, helpful, thank you. 1500! Very interesting, and why not?
Mar 20, 2016 8:17 PM # 
Let me know if you want to come up in April for a couple of sessions.
Mar 20, 2016 8:40 PM # 
matzah ball:
ok I'll give it some serious thought!
Mar 20, 2016 10:05 PM # 
teach mb everything you know and he can pass on to me . . . haha, just kidding. I know training/ racing is much more like an art form developed over much time. and different from one person to the next.

I'm in total agreement with your approach. I think endurance running is all about injury management and walking (ie. running) that fine line between stress, adaptation and injury.

I asked all the college coaches during my sons recent "college tour" about injury. the one program that so far has no injured athletes (out of 34 total runners) in spring endurance track, also believes in "pre-hab", they do two strength sessions M/W, all through the season, reasoning that when an injury occurs, it is due to weakness, and after inflammation subsides, the PT is always strengthen the weak muscle. so logically, instead of "rehab" after the fact, why not "pre-hab" and prevent the injury in the first place.
Mar 20, 2016 10:44 PM # 
Bill: I like it- good philosophy! Those college guys do a lot of volume and strength is an important part of conditioning. I've been impressed with a couple of coaches I've spoken to lately re their enlightenment and science-based training programs.
In a way I'm glad I was never pushed to the max, even if that meant not reaching full potential in the college years.
mb: accommodation on me - as long you don't mind very large dogs!
Mar 21, 2016 12:12 AM # 
matzah ball:
thats a generous offer and sounds like fun! it is a lot of driving though...unless I learn to wing it

another possibility: meet halfway, do some spectating, maybe a training race:), and then some cool down training...
Mar 21, 2016 12:59 PM # 
That's tempting! Trouble is same weekend as the Penn relays that I've committed to.
Mar 21, 2016 4:13 PM # 
matzah ball:
oh thats right - why do they have them the same day. well, my non-resident adviser thinks I should drive, make some other visits on the way and I'm road tripped out. My posterior starts aching just at the thought. Wonderful idea though. Maybe another time...the planets will align.
Mar 22, 2016 9:21 AM # 
matzah ball:
still mulling this over, lets consider our possible track training camp agenda. Lets say you were 7-10 days out from Penn relays, would you want to do 3-4 days of consecutive hard training? My thought, nice to visit but should also avail ourselves of some quality workout times. Cruise intervals for distance, a strides and short sprints session, recovery trail jog/walks, a complete speed session, maybe sneak in a short tempo run to cap things off? A schedule that capitalizes on our strengths and gets us out of our respective comfort zones at the same time? Ideas?
Mar 22, 2016 6:38 PM # 
I'm liking it! Translating, sounds like 2-3 Q sessions with speed/speed endurance orientation. I'd likely argue for 2 back to back hard sessions something recovering in between and then another at the end. That would be a good week and allow recovery for Penn (although my goal is more late May, June for a decent 800). I can juggle work schedule and weekly trainer session. If a Saturday could include a speed workout with 2 strong masters runners.
Btw Trail runs and bike path Fartlek opps are right out my door.
Mar 23, 2016 12:30 AM # 
matzah ball:
how bout this
Apr 20 (wed) arrive noonish Q1 workout p.m.
Apr 21 Q2 workout
Apr 22 Rest/Cross train
Apr 23 (sat) a.m. Q3 workout (w masters runners?) leave 1pm-ish?
Mar 23, 2016 6:17 PM # 
I think that'll work. I have to move a couple of things around, so let me confirm with home boss and also my work schedule on my return to US (back in office Friday).
Would you be interested in joining my trainer strength session (wed night)? Should be fun!
Mar 23, 2016 6:18 PM # 
I think that'll work. I have to move a couple of things around, so let me confirm with home boss and also my work schedule on my return to US (back in office Friday).
Would you be interested in joining my trainer strength session (wed night)?
Plan sounds like fun!
Mar 23, 2016 7:28 PM # 
matzah ball:
killler - guess I'd be in for the strength too. but are you sure we'll survive all this?
Mar 23, 2016 8:54 PM # 
As long as we don't compete we will :-)
Mar 24, 2016 1:04 PM # 
matzah ball:
Recently I've seen how easy it is to do workouts w people of varying current speed. For instance, I did the first 400 of the fast ladies 800's the other day, which also meant I got 3 min. rest to their 90 sec. But I think I saw the danger you refer to when got a little amped on the 2nd interval. Nothing wrong w getting a little adrenaline from company, but then you have to make sure you think 'Wait a second - I have 7 more of these to do'
Mar 24, 2016 11:13 PM # 
Very true! And good motivation, helps push the boundaries, as long as the overall discipline is there.
Mar 25, 2016 4:39 PM # 
MB, I am making progress on squaring things away this end. Boss lady says good to host, just grappling with an all day meeting and some visitors on the Thursday.
Let's switch to personal email to firm up arrangements. Hopefully yours is on your AP profile.
Mar 25, 2016 6:53 PM # 
matzah ball:
yes. I don't mind being left to my own devices, perhaps exploring the area. So if you can squeeze the workout in on Thursday, you could tend to your other responsibilities.
Mar 25, 2016 10:31 PM # 
Great, will send something soon :-)

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