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Discussion: Ocad symbol

in: Orienteering; General;

May 15, 2016 9:08 PM # 
What ocad symbol should I use for a man made animal hut made of sticks? Not exactly sure what they're called. Looks like a tee-pee of large sticks about 2 meters high
May 15, 2016 9:57 PM # 
Black X or O?
May 15, 2016 10:06 PM # 
White woods. Generally ignore these.
May 16, 2016 12:04 AM # 
Whatever you use, make sure to hang the control from inside the roof.
May 16, 2016 12:09 AM # 
This kind of thing?

If so, I'd agree with walk, it's nothing. Unless there's nothing else worth mapping in the whole park.
May 16, 2016 12:36 AM # 
Yeah. There are two distinct of them on either side of where I'm putting a control in a vague-ish area but if it's not normally mapped I'll leave it off.
May 16, 2016 12:42 AM # 
They tend to be transient...
May 16, 2016 12:58 AM # 
I put a control on something similar at our last rogaine. I mapped it as a black X and used it as something different from a track bend or junction (the features were so vague in that area I couldn't use anything else). I had more compliments than complaints about the 'inept shelter'.
May 16, 2016 1:43 AM # 
We've had something like that and it was mapped as log pile (seriously!) (I think...displaying my lack of mapping knowledge here) and was useful for nav. They seem to be in vague areas
May 16, 2016 2:19 AM # 
If I were a mapper or setter coming across one of these I'd pull it down - can't be difficult, remove one or two poles and the rest would fall over.
May 16, 2016 2:23 AM # 
I've a feeling where I come from they might have built them just to have a feature. Then it was a hide and brown x, but think is generally have black x - man-made feature
May 16, 2016 3:44 AM # 
Simmo I'd advise against that if I were you. You'd probably end up in hospital again trying a stunt like that.
May 16, 2016 4:42 AM # 
In a small terrain that I recently mapped, local camp kids keep making and unmaking them, probably as part of camp activities. Definitely transient.
May 16, 2016 5:13 AM # 
Simmo, houses of sticks can easily be blown over, why don't you huff and puff but then replace it with a pile of stones? Cairn you do it?
May 16, 2016 11:09 PM # 
I thought Cairns usually went on maps of Queensland, not Western Australia.
May 17, 2016 12:44 AM # 
Leaving aside the question of whether to map or not, which can only be answered in the field, I often come across kids' huts that pass the test of permanence and being distinctive in the terrain. If its not good enough for "small building" I use "the minimum size "ruin".

FWIW there's a school of thought that, if you're going to use an "X", the requirement to list what X's are in the legend, means you can only use it for one type of object. Or maybe two at a stretch, eg "X = car wreck or farm implement". Is that view widespread?
May 17, 2016 12:53 AM # 
I'll be using it to describe three objects on a sprint map I've just created (picnic table, play equipment, seat). I don't see that it has to be limited to one line!

But yes you are supposed to name it in the legend, at least on sprint maps.
May 17, 2016 12:56 AM # 
Actually I just had a look and I've used it for at least five things - prominent sign and a small tower thingy. Perhaps I should use the T symbol for the tower. The sign won't be on the event map so can probably get away without it.
May 17, 2016 12:57 AM # 
At 1:15000 the X covers an area 12m x 12m, or about 6 times the size of the object in the photo. OK I suppose provided there are no nearby features that would have to be displaced.
May 17, 2016 1:01 AM # 
Not this crap again. At 1:15k a vehicle track and a railway are 5.2m wide and a fence is 2.1m wide too so do you not use those either :-)
May 17, 2016 1:18 AM # 
Mr Wonderful:
Not sure about champs meets requirements, but it's easy enough in Purple Pen to use black x then add a line in the descriptions below specifying what it is.
May 17, 2016 1:51 AM # 
The picnic table doesn't need to be an X. Use 538.
May 17, 2016 3:19 AM # 
Isn't there talks of phasing out that symbol along with the charcoal burning ground (in the symbol set)?
May 17, 2016 3:22 AM # 
I think gruver means 539, which is also for man made feature, so if you can put two alternatives for each in the legend, then you can have four different things.

tRicky I know your new sprint area doesn't have many features, but I think you need to re-read this advice.

And a vehicle track ('major track' in ISOM) at 1:15000 is 3.75m, a railway line 15.75m!. A fence is 2.1m without the tags - they would take up another 4-5m. A forest road is 5.25m. The relative widths of forest road and major track are reasonably close to real life, and should give you some idea of which symbol to use.

It's not crap at all, it means you have to think carefully when mapping about what, and what not, to include. (Maybe not for MTBO maps though.)
May 17, 2016 3:31 AM # 
No I'm pretty sure he means 538 for the picnic table.

I think you'll find my sprint map is well drawn and is fairly well generalised when it needs to be. It got the KB Seal of Approval after all!
May 17, 2016 4:47 AM # 
Fodder rack is a bigger symbol than X or O in both ISOM and ISSOM. Might be appropriate if the table is mainly used by bogans.
May 17, 2016 5:14 AM # 
Garvey Park is mostly frequented by families with young kids so it still applies.
May 17, 2016 5:31 AM # 
Gruver does mean 538. It fits permanent barbeques in parks, too.
May 17, 2016 5:51 AM # 
The fodder rack symbol is 1mm x 1mm so the barbecue would have to be 4m wide (at 1:4000) to be mapped.
May 17, 2016 9:41 AM # 
We have big sausages.
May 17, 2016 10:15 AM # 
1.5 x 1.5 according to my copy of ISSOM, which makes it 7.5 sqm at 1:5000 and 6sqm at 1:4000. Is the table bigger than Fenry, Sten and Juffy laid end to end, and squared?
May 17, 2016 12:26 PM # 
How about you ask if it's significant in the *#&$ing terrain, since that's the actual pertinent point, instead of evoking weird images of me playing footsies with Sten?
May 17, 2016 12:47 PM # 
Oops, I was looking at ISOM, which would make it 15m.
May 17, 2016 2:14 PM # 
Is this the 'Newcomers welcome to orienteering' thread?
May 18, 2016 8:53 AM # 
Ha ha, nice one Tooms!

:) But seriously Juffy if it is significant in the terrain then include a table by all means (but as a X, not a fodder rack). However the question arises, what makes that table significant compared to the 3 tables and bbq grouped around those two shelters over there, or the tables and seats next to that playground across the park, or even all the tables outside the canteen at Shenton College? They would all be left off the map.

We might put a 1m boulder on a bush map if it's 'significant' and not show 1m boulders on another part of the map because either they are insignificant in context, or have been generalised as boulder field/stony ground, but I don't believe we ought to do that with seats and tables.
May 18, 2016 9:44 AM # 
What if the OA conference was happening at that picnic table, would it then be significant?
May 19, 2016 12:22 AM # 
Simmo, I think the "significance in context" is exactly the principle to apply. As for rocks and trees, so too for seats, tables, and in urban areas those little porches and canopies so beloved of sprint course planners.
May 19, 2016 1:20 AM # 
Perhaps we need a new ISSOM symbol for 'field of man made features' - 'an area which is covered with so many seats, tables, etc. that they cannot be marked individually'?

I don't have a problem with the porches and canopies since they can all be included on the map.
May 19, 2016 1:37 AM # 
How about 'stony ground' or if on a uni campus near the arts department, 'stoner ground'.
May 19, 2016 2:12 AM # 
We might put a 1m boulder on a bush map if it's 'significant' and not show 1m boulders on another part of the map because either they are insignificant in context, or have been generalised as boulder field/stony ground, but I don't believe we ought to do that with seats and tables.

Except that that is exactly the principle you should be applying.
May 19, 2016 3:52 AM # 
Just because of this discussion, I'm putting the lonely seat back on the Garvey Park map after I first excluded it, then included it and then removed it after the above discussion ensued. There's nothing else in the area.
May 19, 2016 6:22 AM # 
Simmo - your "field of man-made features" has merit, but only if it "affects the going".

I once set a prolog for an urban rogaine that had controls in a large carpark occupied by a farmers market. Trucks with cabbages, tables with handcrafts, gypsies fixing your inner health with crystals etc. Lots of people milling round. I decided that as visibility was good but speed was reduced to 60-80%, it justified symbol 407 over the paving symbol.

There were lots of fodder racks, but too many to show.
May 19, 2016 1:59 PM # 
For ErikEddy: I guess too - most mappers would use the symbol X or O to indicate on the map such hut of branches.
...Also would do well to consider: is this design stable? Otherwise it won't survive a next thunderstorm... and thefore it makes no sense to draw it :)
May 19, 2016 2:36 PM # 
I actually am going to include it, but just for this event. I was guessing the park constructed it (there is one in their "teaching area" too). It's also more distinct that the other point features in the area, but yeah it's probably not stable.
May 19, 2016 11:51 PM # 
So what is the lonely seat exactly? Is it like this one?

(This one is a black x, by the way, and has been there at least 20 years since that's the last time the map was updated)
May 20, 2016 12:30 AM # 
No ours is a park bench all on its own next to a track. I call it lonely because there are no other usable features nearby, other than a drain, and it doesn't look like anyone's repaired it in years so it's probably not used either.
May 20, 2016 8:30 PM # 
Such objects are too small to draw...May be except for maps of very large scale only...
May 22, 2016 5:12 AM # 
I took the bench off again.
May 22, 2016 6:52 AM # 
Oh dear, white space on a map. Couldn't you dig a hole, or something?
May 22, 2016 7:25 AM # 
Build a cairn
May 22, 2016 8:01 AM # 
No rocks there, have to build one of what this thread was originally about.
May 22, 2016 8:46 AM # 
There are four boulders on the map for your information!
May 22, 2016 10:12 AM # 
I was talking about small rocks to build a cairn with.
May 22, 2016 10:29 AM # 
There are plenty of moderate sized rocks now that the foreshore redevelopment is nearly finished and there is lots of nothing bush to put them in.
May 23, 2016 1:29 AM # 
One thing is certain - if you map the feature it won't be there at the next event. Hence the best suggestion is a white cross for " man-made object unlikely to be there".
May 23, 2016 6:40 AM # 
Terje Mathisen:
One of my old friends, Bernt Myrvold, who might have orienteered in more countries than anyone not organizing the Park World Tour (100+ afaik), once had a course planning problem in the final part of an event:

The terrain was really flat and without any reasonable/mappable features and they really needed a location for a second-to-last control, so they decided to go out and see if they could find one, bringing a wheel barrow and a couple of spades.

After some searching they did find traces of a small depression that seemed to be partly filled with leaves and loose soil, so they started digging and soon discovered that Yes, there was a depression there!

After they had finished excavating that depression they had a second nice surprise, it turned out that a (small) dot knoll had turned up nearby so now they had a second control location to split the courses over. :-)
May 23, 2016 6:51 AM # 
The white cross sounds good, but only in (white) forest - don't put it in a coloured area.
May 23, 2016 6:51 AM # 
Way to ruin the joke, Simmo. Also that's racist.
May 23, 2016 7:06 AM # 
Terje, 1951 Jukola course planner solved similar problem by cutting some trees and making a little clearing. Control #5 here.

Jukola 2018 will use the same area. They will need to make a new clearing, because to original one has disappeared - that spot appears to be industrial area these says.
May 23, 2016 7:16 AM # 
Was it SA that used a h7uman constructed termite mound replacement in 1994? I seem to remember a white construction of some description in the Assembly area for our notification.
May 23, 2016 8:05 AM # 
Back in the pre-OCAD days when Letraset and offset printing (whatever that might be? :P) were used, one of our mappers accidentally dropped a Letraset small boulder onto his artwork without noticing. It remained on the artwork through the printing process, and 3,000 copies of the map were printed (several year's events worth!), so the mapper went out and built a cairn. It's still there on the latest 2014 version of the map, but is now mapped correctly as a cairn.
May 23, 2016 8:47 AM # 
Which map is that, Evedon Ridge? Lake Lesch?

Jagge, if we decided to make a clearing on any one of our maps by cutting down trees, our association would probably be disbanded by the local government parks body, unless we claimed to be ignorant trailbikers in which case they probably wouldn't do anything to us.
May 23, 2016 10:37 AM # 
Spice Brook.
Jun 1, 2016 9:22 PM # 
How dare you disparage Paul Myer's drafting, we had lots of fun building that "boulder" back in the day
Jun 2, 2016 2:24 AM # 
Didn't some Scandinavian event convince a quarry operator to scoop a boulder out of the quarry and place it in the terrain in a needed spot? Apologies for lack of details, but I heard it in detail a couple of times ages ago.
Jun 2, 2016 2:30 AM # 
I recall helping create a needed beginner trail network (which the rangers had given permission was drafted on the map before being created in order to procure permission) at Pawtuckaway State Park. I think that someone (Steve Tarry?) had actually designed courses as part of club members designing the trail. I recall Steve musing once about first making a map for maximum navigational interest and from that making terrain, and that making the trail this way was in ways such an endeavor.
Jun 2, 2016 9:51 AM # 
Terje Mathisen:
@JimBaker: Constructing the trail network on the map, then going out to create it is effectively the default method for the dense xc network needed for Ski-O these days. :-)

I assume there's some adjustment needed when the snowmobile has to detour around trees/hillocs etc but you effectively want to start with a complicated network with no obvious straight paths across it.
Jun 2, 2016 12:47 PM # 
Don't know about placing a boulder, but I recall a story about the Swedish military using explosives to remove some small rock feature that had been omitted from the map. And somebody (PG?) had a story about a race in Norway where an extraneous map feature was dealt with by putting a string between a couple of trees with a little sign hanging from it reading "Dette er en skrent".
Jun 2, 2016 2:07 PM # 
I know one case of a boulder being made using planks, nails and paint.
Jun 2, 2016 3:12 PM # 
Again back in the 5 layers of mylar days..
One of our maps had almost no water features. We used the blue sheet for the title and one very tiny pond near the centre of the map. We took the mylar sheets to the printer, they photographed them, inspected the negatives for blemishes and then sent the results to their printing press.
We got our 3000 copies of the map (many years worth). Everything was good except the pond wasn't there. The photographer's assistant had seen the small dot in the centre of an almost blank sheet, decided it was a fault on the negative and removed it.
Jun 2, 2016 10:24 PM # 
.. and the IOF MC still wants us to print thousands of maps at a time...
Jun 3, 2016 12:40 AM # 
I've seen at least one example of a 2m+ boulder being moved by about 30m - a bushfire was running out of control in one of our national parks, the fireys were running around with a bulldozer making firebreaks in a big hurry and shoved it out of the way.

I went around updating the map for the new track that had just appeared, counted the number of boulders in a clump and came up one short. Look down the hill.....oh, there it is.
Jun 3, 2016 12:44 AM # 
When mapping Surebridge, Mark Dominie and I had a low-key challeng going on to see if either of us could move (by hand) a boulder on the basemap enough that it would need to be mapped in a different spot. The trick was to find one that was precariously balanced somewhere. I think we both got some rocking pretty well, but I don't think either of us succeeded.
Jun 3, 2016 12:55 AM # 
The landowner for the 2007 JWOC area at Sappa Bulga near Dubbo ( Australian names you can play with) had started running a couple of new fence-lines during the mapping, with the promise that they would be completed well before the event, but after the map production dead-line. The obvious happened (or didn't), and streamers had to be hung which didn't impede progress as much as taut 5-strand barb wire. Not sure if the fences were ever finished...
Jun 3, 2016 1:16 AM # 
We had en event in Bunbury only a few years back where the course setter removed the tracks from the hard course maps because having the tracks on the map would make it 'too easy' but then told us to stick to tracks where possible because it was an environmentally sensitive area.
Jun 4, 2016 12:29 AM # 
Well, following tracks that aren't on the map is often a useful skill in areas with cow or wildlife tracks. Cow trails tend to lead to a clearing, which helps in figuring out which way they'll go. I never had as clear an intuition about where wildlife tracks would lead, and just followed them while they were close to my planned path.
Jun 4, 2016 2:17 AM # 
That's tracks created by wildlife though, hence rarely mapped because they can be indistinct and change from one event to the next. These were vehicle and walking tracks, properly created with time and love and pretty damned obvious.
Jun 4, 2016 12:13 PM # 
Removing features from maps can be a good training technique. For my most recent training, I had a contours only, rock only, and vegetation only sections. Rock only was the most popular.
Jun 4, 2016 8:21 PM # 
Some events we used maps with relief and hydro only...sometimes very fun and cool :)
Jun 5, 2016 12:35 AM # 
I recall an ornamental plastic "boulder" being used as a control at a WRE Sprint in California a few years back. It remained in the forest for quite some time following the event, before event staff realized that they had never recovered it.
Jun 6, 2016 7:56 AM # 
Removing features from the map may be good for training but during an event is another matter, especially if they ask you to keep to the features they've removed!
Jun 6, 2016 10:05 AM # 
Keeping track of this?
Jun 6, 2016 1:02 PM # 
A small map just north of Boston, called Boojum Rock, listed a quote from Lewis Carroll 's Hunting of the Snark :

"He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.

"What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?"
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
"They are merely conventional signs!

"Other maps are such shapes, with their islands and capes!
But we've got our brave Captain to thank:
(So the crew would protest) "that he's bought us the best--
A perfect and absolute blank!"
Jun 7, 2016 7:01 AM # 
Could be "legibly presented at a scale of 1:15,000" so would seem to be eminently suitable for international foot-orienteering.
Jun 7, 2016 7:15 AM # 
I encountered one of JJ's teepees on the weekend whilst updating a MTBO map. Needless to say, I did not include it.
Jun 7, 2016 1:16 PM # 
Hey! They're ErikEddy's, not mine!
Jun 7, 2016 1:33 PM # 
I meant very similar to the picture you posted :-)
Jun 8, 2016 11:11 PM # 
New symbol for the next ISOM version. Maybe that white cross could be for "I know I shouldn't have mapped it but I couldn't resist".
Jun 10, 2016 7:06 AM # 
Terje Mathisen:
There are some white symbols in the new ISOM suggestions, in the form of runnable openings in green cover vegetation. Find a junction of those and you have a white cross!

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