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Discussion: What's the rule on going to...

in: blairtrewin; blairtrewin > 2016-05-15

May 15, 2016 11:13 PM # 
What's the rule on going to the start kite? Had a look through the rules yesterday but couldn't see anything (may not have been looking in the right place)
May 15, 2016 11:46 PM # 
I'm not sure there is one (which is possibly a deficiency which should be remedied). 17.3 makes it compulsory to follow a marked route but it also requires a marked route to be shown on the map.

Speaking of the start triangle, I'm not totally convinced it was in the right place - anyone got evidence in support or against this proposition?
May 15, 2016 11:48 PM # 
Jayne, you mean you didn't automatically know to look, among 76 pages of OA rules-and-guidelines, for rule 22.7: "The point where orienteering begins shall be shown on the map with the start triangle and, if it is not at the time start, marked in the terrain by a control flag but no marking device"...?

Which translates as: Thou Shalt Pass Through The Centre Of The Start Triangle :)
May 16, 2016 12:31 AM # 
I actually read that rule, but didn't take from it that it meant you have to go the kite. I guess I should disqualify myself...
May 16, 2016 12:35 AM # 
Uncle JiM:
along with a few others...
May 16, 2016 12:37 AM # 
Haha, I wouldn't worry about that! Our rules are taken word for word from the IOF's in that context, and I guess it's assumed that at a world championships the route to the triangle would be so clearly marked on the ground that you couldn't not go past the flag.

(Must be that the organisers didn't mark the route clearly enough? Also the start team are meant to tell people that they are to go to the flag.)
May 16, 2016 12:38 AM # 
Uncle JiM:
And the course will be set, so going via the flag makes sense, not going right, when the flag is to the left
May 16, 2016 1:03 AM # 
I don't have the map with me but the route to the kite turned left up to the top of the hill, I'd pretty much gone past it without noticing (don't think anyone I started with went to it)

A dq would probably look more respectable on the results than the stupidly long time I took
May 16, 2016 1:05 AM # 
We tend to get told these days to go within 5m of it.

One of our locals set a course a few years back where the only viable route from the start triangle/flag to the first control took you straight back through the pre-start. I debated with the setter as to whether I had to go to the triangle as it was downhill to get to it, approx 100m.
May 16, 2016 1:10 AM # 
There was one on mtbo here where the kite was 300m ride uphill from the maps and the best route would be to turn around and go back through pre-start. I think best practice is probably to try make it so there would be no advantage/ reason not to go to the start kite
May 16, 2016 2:42 AM # 
Uncle JiM:
Last year in Vic, we ran to the top of hill, so we could 'pass by the triangle' to then turn around, and run back down the hill through the pre start
May 16, 2016 5:58 AM # 
The whole reason for a start triangle away from the pre-start is so that people at the pre-start can't see where you are going. Kind of defeats the purpose if you run/ride right back through them!

Typically MTBO you keep going once you hit the flag and there aren't meant to be any decision points (i.e. other tracks) to turn down before you get there.
May 16, 2016 6:56 AM # 
At WA events this season all the courses have been displayed at registration, so kind of defeats the purpose of having a remote start triangle.

Perhaps the route from the pre-start to the start should be shown on the map with a marked route dashed line. On another AP thread there has been discussion about the difficulty of finding the triangle on the map when you pick it up, and maybe the dashed line would help to locate it.
May 16, 2016 6:57 AM # 
I didn't see the flag where I thought it should be so I kept going.
May 16, 2016 7:51 AM # 
I also sometimes struggle with finding the start on the map, in the UK they often have a blank map at -1, guess you could have the start on it.

(I did once struggle to find the start on the map only to eventually realise it was a surprise 2-sided map, and it was on the other side)
May 16, 2016 11:52 AM # 
I doubt that finding a dashed line would be any easier than finding a triangle on the map.
May 18, 2016 6:12 AM # 
This is a "rule" orienteering could do without. And I say "rule" because its really dubious whether the rule as written actually has any significant impact. Yes, organisers can disqualify people for not going to the triangle - it has happened. NZ copies the IOF rules verbatim as well and my brother was DQ'd from an event over there for not going there, Subsequently he used to circle the start triangle three times to make sure he didn't get DQ'd again.
But, seriously, isn't orienteering about navigation? If someone thinks they can navigate to #1 without going to the start triangle isn't that "orienteering"?
Yes its a problem if, say, the location for no. 1 (but not the flag) is visible from the start but that is poor setting and doesn't need a sanction on competitors to fix. Have a pre-start; don't make the route to #1 so obvious...
May 18, 2016 12:06 PM # 
If the start triangle was at O-ing's house, he could navigate to all the events from there.
May 19, 2016 12:51 AM # 
I call ANACHRONISM. WTF do we still persist with 1970s technology. If you must go to the start triangle, its no different to any other control, so it should have a control to log your presence. If it doesn't have a control, then it should be unavoidable. Anything else is stupid. The point of a start triangle distant from map pick up is to hide route choices to make the event fair. But being able to skip a start triangle is probably more a fairness issue than seeing the start of the previous runner's route choice. How about this alternative - start triangle is always at the map pickup. The first leg must not be a route choice leg. This may mean inserting a short facile leg to a first control over the hill.
May 19, 2016 12:55 AM # 
One for everyone (multiple punch units required) or just a no-brainer first control for each course?
May 19, 2016 3:05 AM # 
Uncle JiM:
When over West this year, I saw some courses that Noel had run when he went to USA, they had a easy leg to the 1st control, normally along a track, then you got the harder legs. So in other words, there was a unit at the start triangle, that you must punch
May 19, 2016 4:18 AM # 
I don't think the map pickup should be at the start triangle because you have no way of planning your next leg before you get there so everyone would end up standing around. An SI unit at the triangle (not being the start unit - that would still be at the pre-start) as Glooms suggests would at least ensure everyone went there.
May 19, 2016 6:42 AM # 
Arena starts with long runs to the start triangle are commonplace at major international events, especially relays - 500m or more is normal at Jukola, for example.
May 19, 2016 8:28 AM # 
Doesn't that give you quite a while to plan on the way to the first control though
May 19, 2016 9:12 AM # 
First control? The run to the triangle is sometimes so long, those elites would plan the whole course!

I like the map pickup at the triangle idea, it has been used successfully in the past. If people are standing around, so what? There is still a marked route to it, so it's hardly giving the location away, and any people standing around are most likely on the easier courses so not affecting competitive runners.
May 19, 2016 9:49 AM # 
But people get in the wrong labelled queue at very well organised events and managed to pick up wrong course maps when under supposedly no pressure at all - can you imagine the shenanigans when people run to a start triangle and try to remember their course number once they get there? Or put a handful of itching powder on the remaining maps, or stir up the bullant nest, or...
May 19, 2016 1:17 PM # 
Yeah I'm sure only people on the easier courses won't be able to quickly find the start triangle when they pick up their map at the flag. I'm not saying it's a stupid idea but, well, it is. It wouldn't surprise me at all if those 'competitive' runners hide the remaining maps (or swap them for a different course) given there would be no-one to supervise them.

This discussion thread is closed.