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Discussion: 40mm

in: brycec; brycec > 2016-05-19

May 19, 2016 8:24 AM # 
Or thereabouts rain forecast, that should cheer you up.
May 19, 2016 9:11 AM # 
no such thing as bad weather just inadequate clothing...

seems I will be navigating as owens glasses will struggle with the rain - lets hope I dont struggle to stay upright.
May 19, 2016 10:54 AM # 
Rogaining in the middle of the night? There's bad weather. Anything that involves extra wet stuff. From the sky or from soaking vegetation. Blergh.
May 19, 2016 12:14 PM # 
If it's the same part of the map we used last time, there'll be farmland to go in at nighttime.
May 19, 2016 12:17 PM # 
thats the plan.
May 20, 2016 3:19 AM # 
So who's going to win the rogaine? I mean other than Wave and Dil - they don't count being a permanent team; only teams that keep changing team members officially count in the results.
May 20, 2016 3:33 AM # 
Is there going to be a rule re-write over this?
May 20, 2016 3:51 AM # 
Who actually cares who wins the thing? It's just 12hrs of walking with gradually sorer feet. As long as brycec suffers some kind of amusing Nav fail and gets beaten by, say, a girl or lots of veterans then it'll be worthwhile.
May 20, 2016 3:58 AM # 
Sorry Tooms, have I been ruining your fun by not letting Bryce get lost in new and amusing ways? :p
May 20, 2016 4:01 AM # 
well if I dont blow up the only female who presents a threat that I can tell of by the teams I know is Jen - but her team mate is an absolute numpty so limited risk there.

Team placement 2-4 going to be interesting
Ricky and Shane
Jen and Tomms
Me and Owen

All have a reasonable chance - depends how everyone travels and nav accuracy. 2nd place realistically could be anyones. I have my suspicions on which way the top 5 will fall though.
May 20, 2016 4:03 AM # 
btw entirely possible we get lost this weekend because owens said his glasses fog in the rain so ill be carrying the nav - and Paul will attest to my brain fades.
May 20, 2016 4:10 AM # 
Oh god so many brain fades.
May 20, 2016 4:16 AM # 
I'm going with:

* Dill and Wave - 1st, duh.
* Ricky and Shane - will go really fast for 8 hours until a random body part falls off one of them. Will still come 2nd.
* Jen and Tooms - will do between 6 and 10 hours before realising that it's a ridiculous sport and the camper is nice and dry. Will still come 5th because it's impossible for them to make nav errors, 4th if the rain clears up or doesn't reach that far inland, 12th (and DSQ) if Jen kills Tooms for being right once too often.
* Bryce and Owen - will do well until dusk, when Bryce will start transposing his location between 0.5 and 3km in any direction, making the map fit and then confidently declaring they should go thattaway. Will come [3d6]th.

One of my colleagues, who rogaines semi-casually, rang me earlier to ask if the rogaine would be cancelled because of the rain forecast. o_O
May 20, 2016 4:24 AM # 
Gawd some people just don't understand outdoor navigation sports. It's not the Trek the Trail, which according to the website takes place every September (unless a gust of wind goes through causing a napkin to blow away and subsequent event cancellation).
May 20, 2016 6:19 AM # 
Tooms asking if anyone cares who wins... Only if it can ruin someone's birthday I suppose ;)
May 20, 2016 1:50 PM # 
LOL! No camper Juffy, we've brought the kids to Nedlands so that we can drive for the same number of hours as we rogaine this weekend. I do like your summary though, made me laugh! We've not been walking/training enough to do more than walk for 12hrs, but you're right - no Nav errors anticipated. My biggest fear is getting bored and losing interest around the 6-8hr mark.
May 20, 2016 10:46 PM # 
You mean, about the time the HH opens? It's weird how that never worked when I was a kid, but once you're in charge of the compass it seems like a more compelling argument. :p
May 21, 2016 8:02 AM # 
Can't wait for all the write ups after this! Great entertainment!
May 21, 2016 9:48 AM # 
Predictive write-up.

The start was really wet. After that, it didn't rain so much, but everything was soaked. Rogaining when it's wet is poo.
May 22, 2016 3:43 AM # 
Actually it stopped raining right at the start then rained on and off for the next few hours, then the sun actually came out before it went away again, it got dark and then rained on us again.

Apparently 1/3 of the teams (129 entries) were DNS, including about a half dozen that actually came to the event but went home again.
May 22, 2016 6:59 AM # 
That's a very high DNS rate - well in my experience (I help out with admin and do the checking off of teams). Just more food for those who tough it out (or rather those who tough it out but come in early for the food).
Disappointed tRicky on you retirement but very understandable.
May 22, 2016 8:45 AM # 
Yeah you'd think that about the food wouldn't you but for whatever reason at this event, they stopped cooking early and those of us who were out for 12hrs didn't get much variety at all.

No rice (back to the bad old days), goulash, veggie curry soup (i.e. minus the veggies), no burgers - I wouldn't even know what else we missed out on! At least they cooked me another cheesie :-)

'Retirement' may just mean from hard competition at every event. I may crack one out every so often but may just be selective in future events.
May 22, 2016 8:52 AM # 
Um the hh was atrocious - seriously should really consider keeping something hot and decent with meat in it for those who are coming in at the end. Basically no dinner last night should have been at least rice I was very disappointed when I saw what they had
May 22, 2016 9:15 AM # 
That is very poor management and it will come back to bite in the future (oh I am sorry about that pun). Someone once told me that people remember the food, the "assembly" area and the map - in that order. - unless there is a flood or fire which puts the event into the legend status.
May 22, 2016 11:01 AM # 
Well Tash was in by 9pm and she said there was a lack of food even then (i.e. rice and goulash weren't available). Perhaps a pizza shop manager isn't the best choice for HH coordinator!
May 22, 2016 1:47 PM # 
We finished with Tash and there was a large container of rice cooking, about 6 inches of goulash left and plenty of veggie curry. Mind you, we were at the HH about 10mins after finishing whereas Tash muttered something about standing by the fire...

tRicky, next year are you up for a no torch, no worries event? We could probably entice Fletch back into things too. I figure now you're an orienteer you may want to enjoy your rogaining more? :-)
May 22, 2016 2:13 PM # 
Maybe Tash didn't notice there was any rice because she didn't want any.

I could be up for that but it depends where I am located next year.
May 22, 2016 2:54 PM # 
no torch no worries means - you come in when its dark - or your ultra hardcore on an overcast day :P
May 22, 2016 11:02 PM # 
Just daylight.
May 23, 2016 12:15 AM # 
It was quite a while before I got to the food after finishing. Took ages to get my feet out of their shoes and by that stage I think I was completely out of it. I probably walked straight past the food without even seeing it. To show how out of it I was - I thought Kellie was the boss of HH last night but BookFace tells me MrRogaine was leading the ship.
May 23, 2016 12:28 AM # 
Yeah but surely there is a better system like a token for the meat so they know that there will be enough
May 23, 2016 12:41 AM # 
Thanks Tash, now I made an incorrect comment on here!

Bryce, with 1/3 of the teams not showing up, I dare say there was enough available but that it just wasn't cooked. I'd be interested to see how much food was given away. We were told at breakfast that it'd be put out 'in a half hour' but that time came and went, we went out to collect controls and when we got back, there was nothing there.

Just as interesting was the comment about 129 teams being 'a lot' for a 12hr, except last time we had a 12hr rogaine at Gunapin (2011), there were 156 teams.
May 23, 2016 12:49 AM # 
Yeah 129 seems to be a declining norm - yes I assumed food wasn't cooked - but why not cook it if your just going to give it away it's no loss
May 23, 2016 12:51 AM # 
The 12hr events used to get more teams than the 24hr ones but that trend seems to have been reversed in recent years, with last year's May 12hr getting 131 and the state champs getting 151. The previous year it was the October 12hr with 129 teams and our awesome 24hr at New Norcia (not even the state champs) with 158 teams. There's something to be said for doing a great write up of the event in attracting teams!
May 23, 2016 3:52 AM # 
its called advertising :P
May 23, 2016 4:38 AM # 
I was in charge of the hash house. I made the decision to wind things up when they were and I made the decision to start handing out the food a little earlier than announced.

The hash house team had a lot of experienced, competent people including three previous hash house leaders. As I do, I let them run the show and was there to answer questions and problem solve if required. With 60 minutes to go, there were 16 teams still on the course and with 30 minutes to go there were officially 10 teams still out (turned out there were actually 9) so I asked them to just keep a few of most things in the bain maries and some food in the pots.

I'm happy with the way the hash house went.
May 23, 2016 4:54 AM # 
Breakfast was good.

Wow, only nine teams out (or eleven according to results) with a half hour to go in a 12hr and I know four of those teams were on their way back from 107 with ~45 minutes to go. The weather must have been bad or something with that few teams still out. Results say Shane and I were the second last team back in with three minutes to spare.
May 23, 2016 5:37 AM # 
MrR - my complaint is - wrappign up food because its going to be wasted rather than handed out seems a moot point to me - the cost to WARA is nothing - so why not cook more and guarantee those people who are cold and coming in at the end of the race definitely have options.

My hot food options post getting dry and changed was.
Vegi curry with no rice
beef patty (which I took and was hard so threw into fire and that portion of fire extinguished - not even joking)

my dinner ended up being 2 snags and a bit of onion and a bit of mushroom. hardly a proper feed post a race.

Im sorry to be picky on this but its not hard when a 1/3rd of teams dont turn up to have food available - it wasnt a supply issue it was simply a we arent cooking anymore issue - which is not fair and poor form.

So whilst I am sure from the tent you where happy with its operations please accept feedback from the competitors who were the ones looking forward to a proper hot meal after the cold conditions and a hard slog. I can tell you now it was inadequate at best. a worrying trend on HH for the last few rogaines but this one didnt have excuses like the previous did (such as under staffing or under catering).

in short - there is no good rationale reason not to throw on more rice and beef strog/goulash to ensure you have enough and throw out some rather than run out and have an extra container spare but competitors dissatisfied.
May 23, 2016 5:42 AM # 
You're not known for being mute, Bryce, whether making a point or not.
May 23, 2016 5:48 AM # 
touche - corrected for juffy goodness.
May 23, 2016 6:07 AM # 
Plus I paid more for my membership this year so I demand a commensurate 250% increase in event satisfaction.
May 23, 2016 6:13 AM # 
I believe the sales pitch was that you would feel a 250% increase in warm fuzzies* for being part of a forward-looking, progressive organisation.

* note: warm fuzzies only available at AGM.
May 23, 2016 6:26 AM # 
Juffy... will you teach me how to rogaine properly???
May 23, 2016 6:31 AM # 
Only in exchange for warm fuzzies and/or goulash.
May 23, 2016 6:36 AM # 
That's goulashly evil.
May 23, 2016 6:42 AM # 
At least it's not cheesie.
May 23, 2016 6:49 AM # 
Well it's not possible to make a hash of it anymore. Don't even try and curry favour - you'll just get snagged. It's no cake walk.
May 23, 2016 6:55 AM # 
Well burger, you've taken all the fun out of it.
May 23, 2016 7:00 AM # 
Stop egging me on. My brain is scrambled. Any more and I'll just get fried. I think I'm just poaching lines now.
May 23, 2016 7:39 AM # 
This comment is not restricted to this small, elite sub-set of the rogaining community because you all do more than your fair share.

I wonder how I can generate as much enthusiasm and/or energy expenditure on volunteering as is demonstrated here on the pros or cons of the hash house?
May 23, 2016 7:55 AM # 
Give your volunteers some recognition and reward for their efforts.

Tip: "withholding the stick" is not the same as "giving the carrot".
May 23, 2016 8:01 AM # 
Bryce, I normally by pass your log and comments because for a simple mind like mine, it is overwhelming in every instance but I did persist today.

You have omitted a few things in your assessment. I'm guessing to make a point.

The only items missing from your BBQ food choices were cheesies, eggs and vegie patties which we would have happily done and could have been done quick. That offer was made to others because we can respond relatively quickly. If you asked and were denied, then I am sorry.

The beef patties are truly horrible - even at their best. I will be changing that for future events.

The pot concoctions - goulash/stew/soup come in 1 or 2kg bags pre made and are frozen. Bringing these on line requires some judgement and time. Not just the cooking but judging how much to thaw out and whebn). Cooking the rice requires about 20 minutes. Oh to have a microwave to zap some for the last minute orders. So the team did their best to judge how many would require food and in what time frame.

There is your rationale. We could have supplied you with goulash and soup after about 30 minutes of waiting and thrown most of the batch out and you could have had rice to go with it (same time frame but no wastage)

Other foods available to you were salads, bread rolls, cake, fruit, tea/coffee and milo. Pretty good selection I think.

I think they did very well to offer you the selection you had at about 10.30pm when you came looking for food. It was 11.15pm when I finally turned off the lights.

Of course, if you'd like to show me how to do it better, I need a hash house leader for the next event and I would welcome your expertise. And yes, I know you are setting the novelty event but that shouldn't exclude you from volunteering on other occasions.
May 23, 2016 8:31 AM # 
Hey Juffy - I can give so many warm fuzzies that anything nearby with cold pricklies will throw up in revulsion to all the Warm Fuzzyness going around!

I can also provide food, lots of food, snacks, even cake or cake like provisions. I have a sort of food blender now so I can make some healthy snacks if you're into that sort of thing.

I may make my own Goulash; there is a local Paranomal Expert (Seriously!) in my building that I can ask to track down some ghosts for the recipie. It is a long-shot but totes worth it!
May 23, 2016 8:50 AM # 
Yeah Bryce, you seriously should volunteer multiple times per year to make up for Wil's other people's lack of volunteering.
May 23, 2016 9:36 AM # 
The only items missing from your BBQ food choices were cheesies, eggs and vegie patties which we would have happily done and could have been done quick.

So, two of the most popular items on the menu, and the dear-god-why-isn't-this-thing-cooked-yet veggie patties. Even the hamburgers can be palatable buried inside a cheesie with a nice hot egg.
May 23, 2016 9:44 AM # 
How to get more people passionate - clearly answer is to up the membership fee

Next rogaine I won't be there then nannupi will want a hit out - then 12 hr my fav format won't miss then I'm setting - guess that's a no for this year.

But I'll consider an alternative next time in bringing a backup in the form of a hot plate, a steak and a potato that I can cook over the main fire so I can have a certain decent protein and carb intake.

Incidentally only a cheesie was offered. But I was looking for nutrition not a feed - the veg stuff does little towards recovery carbs and protein is what I've found yields the quickest recovery hence my disappoint to find a lack of it

Appreciate your comment re the stew and rice - I guess you gave none away at the end?! Because if you did my point still is use that for the event that's what it was bought for waste or not.
May 23, 2016 1:23 PM # 
I think you're overcomplicatung the 'recovery' part of what the HH could be offering in your opinion brycec. There's platinum standard (unnecessary as no-one is racing/training at anywhere near the level where that would make a jot of difference) or there's Gold standard that I would argue that was in offer - a variety of food groups, hot and cold, and stacks of veggies and carbs and protein. Shove something in within 45mibs if finishing and that's most of your recovery needs sorted. Or, read muscle mags and get a distorted view of things... :-)

On the other hand, if the base standard needs to be 'lots of everything that I individually want, when I want it' - then there'll always be someone disappointed! I think expectations are very high - but fully agree there have been availability issues in the past. Work with your committee.

If carbs and protein were your requirements - they were there in spades. Maybe not sirloin steak cooked to your request, maybe not even hot - but you don't recover entirely from one post event meal! If OTOH you want an extensive hot menu - then leave early and go to a restaurant! Or heat up your pasta bake, rissoto pre prepared from home. Or eat a tuna and salad whole meal roll.

Being cold and tired isn't a reason to pick on a very good HH set up.
May 23, 2016 2:01 PM # 
Last year at the SA Champs I was so disappointed at the finish when there was only leftover stew/rice from the previous night's offerings available for lunch; I understood that with a skeleton crew of volunteers in a remote area having a BBQ wasn't practical, but it really made me appreciate the sausages yesterday - after a rogaine is the only time that I ever feel like eating sausages, but boy do I really crave them then!
May 23, 2016 2:29 PM # 
Jen laughs at me when I say "My body Needs [insert foodstuff]". Usually steak / bacon / burger with the lot / ice cream / coke. Either sugar (energy low) or protein (proper depleted)!
May 23, 2016 2:48 PM # 
eh simply put - the food was bought to be cooked for the race - if someone racing has left hungry/disappointed because the food they where looking for was not cooked because 'we thought we had enough' and it was only to be given away I think thats stupid. just cook the lot - no one really comes to the event to take home food.

I have never complained that the HH doesnt have variety or kicked up a major fuss if its run out because of good attendance when ive come in right at the end but when catering was there for 30% more people than turned up there should be plenty of every option available until its closed and disposed of - this is my point.
May 23, 2016 11:54 PM # 
And they should never, ever, restrict the cheese toasties to only one per person...
May 24, 2016 12:46 AM # 
They certainly didn't do that. I had one right after I finished but later on I went back and there were none there so they cooked five for me! I only had another one though.

But back to the topic at hand, when was the last time our illustrious 'win at all costs' VP volunteered at any event and after answering that, when was the last time (if at all) he volunteered at an event that wasn't a 6hr? The rest of us get it hammered home time and time again but some high profile people still seem to get away with it.
May 24, 2016 1:53 AM # 
Not everyone wants to volunteer, despite incentives / sticks. Understanding that is a big part of working in volunteer committees and organisations. For example, I am / used to be a member of about 5 sports all of whom strongly encouraged annual volunteering - now clearly my energies went far beyond the one-off volunteer in surf club, orienteering and rogaining, but I never volunteered at all for Triathlon WA (other than helping at Schools Champs). WA Marathon Club I just did the once per year marshalling, sometimes. Nowadays my volunteer hours are sunk into ADHOC and the local tri club - I'd really like to help set a rogaine again, but that time will come when the kids are a tad older. In a different sport to the 2 nav sports we love and wail at equally, I stated I was totally happy to pay double the membership fee if it meant not being constantly bombarded with overt and covert messages that I should be volunteering. "Here, have $200 but leave me alone." was essentially my offer. In orienteering I avoided admin at all costs, I detest it, but conversely sunk 100s of hours into coaching, setting, controlling, Convenor, President, control collection etc. In my own mind that made me totally comfortable saying "No" to peope who asked me to sit in the caravan all day.

Either create a hard and fast rule of 'volunteer or else' or accept that despite how we think, others may have different motivations. Perhaps Wil will vounteer next year when he gets injured, and at the moment perhaps he's got other priorities?
May 24, 2016 2:42 AM # 
lets look at the numbers here.

you have a declining member base but for argument sake lets call it 1200 people this year.

History shows that 80% of people will only do 1-2 events so safe to assume of the 1200 - 960 will come and go and never volunteer.

So youve got a pool of 240 people to draw on. lets say 75% of those will volunteer in a year (probably unreasonably high) thats 180 people you have access to.

a quick glance at the volunteer grid suggest you need about 130 positions filled a year. And thats before control collecting or anyone other activities to assist the organisation.

Basically I am saying your smashing the same people every year and its unsustainable. you think the ratio of those in the small pool should be 100% realtically you need to dilute it to about 25% and the only way you are going to do that is grow that pool of regular rogainers - which means for the 80% that come to 1-2 events - how do you keep them coming back.

Fine first years membership for them is free - but you think if they only typically do 1 or 2 a then membership hike of 0-40 is good.. dont think so - also you need to figure out what attracts them and their friends to the sport and build that aspect out - make it funner for them to keep them coming back. The life of the sport wont be on the elites who cope a fair bit of pressure to vol rather it will be on the life blood who make up the numbers and the revenue.
May 24, 2016 3:46 AM # 
I was wondering how quick the Wil defence would come out. Fact is he's been rogaining for 15 years and in that time I think he my have set 2-3 events (all 6hr rogaines with no badge on the line) and doubtful he's volunteered at all in other roles. So to say perhaps he has other priorities when it's clear rogaining is his #1 priority - check his results and his overly excessive training regime and it's not like he's lacking the time - is a load of crap. Waiting for injury to set in before volunteering is a lousy excuse.

I understand the issue about volunteering in other capacities. I for one am a member of four different associations/sporting groups and I volunteer frequently in two of them (and have done so in both event organisation and committee roles) but not at all in the other two but the two I do work for are also the ones I participate in regularly. If I do more MTB XC races then I will probably volunteer there too.

When you get MrR coming online and asking Bryce to volunteer more than once in a year, well it's clear this type of comment should be directed elsewhere. We're trying to make our existing volunteers do so more regularly because it's easier to get known culprits on board rather than trying to persuade those who don't to have a go.

To be honest, the other reason I'm retiring is because it's no longer possible to even be competitive at rogaines because of the team nature of the sport. When one person hogs the best candidates, thus denying anyone else a shot or even a bit of team diversity, well I just cannot be bothered anymore. If Dave came and asked me to do a rogaine now the first thing I would ask is 'Why, isn't Wil competing?' Yes I am cynical. It used to enjoy sitting around the fire post-event not knowing who'd won and having to wait for the results but now the result is a foregone conclusion before even finishing and it's just no fun smashing myself for second place.

For interest I have now volunteered myself for the next event because I want to support Mark's rogaine, even if I'm not competing.
May 24, 2016 4:50 AM # 
Wow, coincidence that a survey relating to volunteering has been sent out to all WRC competitors today?
May 24, 2016 5:20 AM # 
Problem with your comment above Ricky - is volunteering is not mandatory and people can get upset because they volunteer more than others and some people dont vol - but end of the day volunteering is a choice and if the choice is I want to race as hard as possible for the serious events of the year then I dont think there is any issue with that.

Ask people to pay more - or better incentives for vols. If people dont want to vol then so be it - thats there choice up to the organisation to make volling more attractive rather than guilt people into it.

Re being competitive - coming second all the time sucks - I take an approach of where is the best I can come and thats my first. I dont have it in me to train to beat Will but understand why thats a frustration for oyu.
May 24, 2016 5:41 AM # 
I think it's sad in a way that you apparently only enjoy rogaining if you win. So regardless of the experience you have while you're out there - your enjoyment of the sport is entirely influenced by whether you finish first or not i.e. matters generally beyond your control.

I doubt that's entirely the case as you still adventure race (the real ones) without any chance of winning, and you used to rogaine a lot without winning. Is it at all possible you could enter a rogaine with a different partner not up to your exalted standard and enjoy the challenge of lifting that person's performance to, say, top 10? Top 5? You wouldn't be smashing yourself and might be more positive. Alternatively, you'd probably complain that you were bored as you couldn't smash yourself!

Volunteering etc - it's a reflection more on the systems and processes of a sport. I completely agree with the default process being to generally approach people from whom you are likely to get a positive result, or whom are a soft touch.
May 24, 2016 6:05 AM # 
Not sad that I don't enjoy myself unless I win - I just like the opportunity to present itself every so often rather than having one team dominate all the time and yet never break up! I went out with Tash & Bryce in the USD knowing we weren't going to win and had a ball. I used to (and still do) go out with different teammates for different experiences and for the reasons you suggest above, to see how well we could do against different teams.

However the weekend showed me that my body isn't coping as well as it used to and you are right, I enjoy myself more when I do go as hard as I can. I have done a few social events and found I didn't enjoy them as much, maybe I'm bored of WA bush, the rogaine style of navigation, want a different challenge or something else - I don't know. Maybe I'm more suited to orienteering where I can go as hard as I can for a much shorter time, the navigation is more intense, it doesn't take days to recover and I can do as well as I can as an individual. I know Owen made the comment on Friday night that in his previous four events, he had three teammates pull out on him. At least in orienteering it's up to you!
May 24, 2016 6:25 AM # 
Also pretty sure we wouldn't win a No Torch, No Worries event but it'd be fun ;-)
May 24, 2016 6:29 AM # 
I wouldnt mind (on a clear night) attempting a no torch stay out rogaine - it sounds like a challenge I am up for - but I dont know if anyone is bat shit crazy enough to put there body on the line with me for that.
May 24, 2016 6:44 AM # 
How will you read the map?
May 24, 2016 6:48 AM # 
Did someone ask for Crazy??
May 24, 2016 7:26 AM # 
In orienteering I avoided admin at all costs, I detest it, but conversely sunk 100s of hours into coaching, setting, controlling, Convenor, President, control collection etc. In my own mind that made me totally comfortable saying "No" to peope who asked me to sit in the caravan all day.

Actually similar to this, one of the last times I did admin for a rogaine (not that long ago although back when I had a job), I had someone come up to me and tell me that I should be setting events, not doing admin. Sure I'd rather spend hours, if not days, of my time chasing landowners, fixing maps, fieldwork, control checking, communicating with vetters, organisers, etc, patrolling, and dealing with complaints about 'orienteering' controls rather than have a leisurely time in admin for a change of pace (and in either case sacrificing an event). It's still considered volunteering no matter how you do it!
May 24, 2016 9:35 AM # 
Chuckle! Exactly.

This discussion thread is closed.