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Discussion: How to describe this wall corner in a clue sheet

in: Orienteering; General

Dec 2, 2016 10:46 PM # 
sherpes:

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Dec 2, 2016 10:54 PM # 
Zacleipyr:
Stonewall northeast inside corner
Dec 2, 2016 11:37 PM # 
andrewd:
southwesternmost inside N wall corner

the other wall corner to the east is too similar so I'd suggest adding the SW most
Dec 2, 2016 11:43 PM # 
Mr Wonderful:
northwesternmost? There is a corner south of the indicated corner.
Dec 3, 2016 12:32 AM # 
robplow:
if you can't describe it unambiguously, don't use it. and judging by the responses so far that is the case. no point being too clever trying to make a tricky control site that ends up causing confusion and grief. although it is obviously not a sprint (ISSOM) map the orienteering in that little excerpt is very 'sprint' in character. ie the focus is more on route choice and navigation at high speed rather than finding tricky controls

you could move the control site a few m to the south west and call it (western) stone wall, south east side. or just move to the tree the other side of the gate if that doesn't adversely affect the route choice.
Dec 3, 2016 1:32 AM # 
tRicky:
I would have thought 'Western wall, northeast inside corner' would describe it adequately.
Dec 3, 2016 2:43 AM # 
Juffy:
Only real ambiguity is which side of the wall it's on, and that's easily solved using the 'inside corner'. West, North-West or North clarifier depending on how fussy you want to be with your circle, but it's blatantly obvious which wall it's on.
Dec 3, 2016 4:04 AM # 
tRicky:
Northeast Juffy, northeast :-)
Dec 3, 2016 4:51 AM # 
simmo:
I do think it can be described unambiguously, although the fact 4 APers have got it wrong makes me think that perhaps robplow is correct. tRicky is the closest, because there are two walls in the circle, and it is on the western one, but on that wall there are two corners, and the control is inside the northern one.

Hence: W wall, N corner (inside).
Dec 3, 2016 4:57 AM # 
TheInvisibleLog:
I wouldn't use the site. I hate the after race angst.
Dec 3, 2016 5:28 AM # 
jennycas:
I wouldn't use the term clue sheet.
Dec 3, 2016 6:40 AM # 
tRicky:
Simmo is correct because he says so. His aging eyes can even pick which of two corners the arrow is pointing at (it's actually pointing between them but to me the circle looked closer to the eastern corner - not possible to tell for sure).

Jenny took the comment I was going to write originally.
Dec 3, 2016 7:01 AM # 
JimBaker:
Everyone has said stonewall inside north corner or stonewall inside northeast corner, either of which are correct. (It's exactly halfway between those two.) "Westernmost" is superfluous and probably only serves to confuse rather than clarify. No problem using the site with either simple description.
Dec 3, 2016 7:33 AM # 
tRicky:
Although it looks obvious on a blown up sample, the use of 'western' is due to the fact there are two walls inside the circle.
Dec 3, 2016 7:45 AM # 
JimBaker:
Indeed, there's a northern inside corner on the eastern wall, just barely inside the circle. But, with modern printing, that's unlikely to be mistaken. I'd omit the westernmost, despite the technical accuracy. Simpler descriptions are usually better at competition speed, so long as clear and (in a practical sense) unambiguous. My 2c.
Dec 3, 2016 8:13 AM # 
tRicky:
My understanding is that it's the structure itself (the wall) and not the location (NE corner) that the initial arrow in the description would be describing, hence 'western wall' not 'western NE corner'.
Dec 3, 2016 11:42 AM # 
TheInvisibleLog:
Wot tRicky says. If we can debate it this long that says there must be a better site nearby.
Dec 3, 2016 11:51 AM # 
Juffy:
Please, 17 comments around here is barely getting started. The 392 in the ISOM 201x thread is at least vaguely contentious. :)
Dec 3, 2016 12:33 PM # 
tRicky:
Just stick it on the roundabout and make it the traffic regulator's problem.
Dec 3, 2016 1:39 PM # 
simmo:
sherpes has not told us whether this is a sprint/ISSOM event, but let's assume it is. The placement of the circle on the map is clear enough that competitors don't really need to read the description, and the control site is fair - although personally I would move the centre of the circle just a tiny bit more to the SSW to be absolutely sure that runners know the control is inside the wall.

My impression is that in sprint events most experienced orienteers primarily use the map to tell them where the control is and generally don't look at descriptions, except (1) to confirm the control code, and (2) where the placement is not clear from the map.

On the other hand, if this were an event with an ISOM map at 1:10000 or 1:15000 an accurate description would be necessary, because the wall is mapped too close to the road and would barely be visible. The two fences are also too close together - minimum gap between two black lines in ISOM is 0.15mm. The entry to the park is also 'too busy' to be interpreted at 1:10000 or 1:15000, and would need to be simplified.
Dec 3, 2016 2:27 PM # 
tRicky:
It's not mapped to ISSOM standards. You can tell by:
a) the road
b) mapping of the track
c) the wall (although technically you can use the black with the dot, in most cases the grey wall would be used)
d) mapping individual trees in scattered trees
e) no border around the grey
Dec 3, 2016 5:29 PM # 
j-man:
Semi-open, NW part. Given the probable configuration of the terrain, map, and course, being on the other side of the wall is unlikely. So, focus on the most salient and unambiguous part of the terrain picture for control placement/description.
Dec 3, 2016 7:14 PM # 
sherpes:
Looks like folks from 3 continents are here talking about this one little stonewall corner, I am so impressed that just felt compelled to go back to the local park and make a short video of it, for better visualization...
Dec 3, 2016 7:16 PM # 
JimBaker:
I'm with simmo; it's obvious enough from the placement of the circle, though centering the circle ever so slightly better will improve that even more. No one will think that it's the eastern wall. No one will think it's the other bend in the wall. The competitor might wonder which side of the wall, which the description will tell them. Although this has elicited a lot of discussion, I think that it's more about technicalities than any actual ambiguity other than the side of the wall, which a northern or northeastern inside corner symbol in the correct column clears up just fine. All the discussion is less a symptom of the location than of the tendency to overcomplicate descriptions due to some notion of what's technically in the circle, what symbols could technically be used in each column, etc. As simple as possible, but no simpler. (I.e., as simple a description one can find that will make the location clear at competition speed) Follow that dictum for descriptions, and all's fine.
Dec 3, 2016 8:24 PM # 
TheInvisibleLog:
Rivet ting video. Can we also argue as to whether the stone wall is actually a cliff?
Dec 3, 2016 8:32 PM # 
JimBaker:
Hmm, should that be 521 High stone wall, >1.5m, with double dots? (It's almost a rockface, given its greater height on one side, but not quite.) That might be important to an orienteer thinking that the control might be approachable from the outside of the wall corner (north side) by hopping the wall.
Dec 3, 2016 8:45 PM # 
JimBaker:
Hmm, the other tweet with the #ClueSheet hashtag also had a hashtag #BieberBandit. But the top tweet with #ControlDescription had tags #toys and #amazon (probably meaning the online store, not the terrain and watershed). The latest tweet with #clues had #CirqueDuSoleil and #MichaelJackson. I'm not sure that #ocd (for orienteering control description) would be any better. Maybe #clues is as good as any? ;-)
Dec 3, 2016 8:58 PM # 
walk:
Top cliff. Remap to emphasize to runners that it would not be a wise route choice to cross it.

Also where's the fence on the S side of the trail?
Dec 4, 2016 12:58 AM # 
David_Waller:
I agree with walk. Given the video, I would have mapped this as a cliff. I also agree that the number of posts in this thread should not be used as an indication of the complexity of the original question.
Dec 4, 2016 8:43 AM # 
robplow:
The criteria of 'unambiguous' should be assessed from the point of a view of a not a particularly experienced orienteer looking at the map during the competition. It is easy for armchair experts to say it is unambiguous when looking at an enlarged example on the screen.
Dec 4, 2016 9:23 AM # 
tRicky:
Can we also argue as to whether the stone wall is actually a cliff?

I've tried this in the past and been told a wall is a wall, regardless of whether it's higher on one side. This means it should be mapped as a high wall even if it looks low from one side because ISOM/ISSOM is all about safety and whether you should actually be crossing the wall (for ISSOM purposes it's mapped as impassable because they don't want people jumping from the top to the bottom).

Also where's the fence on the S side of the trail?

Plenty of other stuff missing too - the fact the path has a junction (I imagine it was too difficult mapping a path between the two mapped fences), the mapped fence bends along the path...
Dec 4, 2016 12:37 PM # 
gruver:
tRicky you're right that both ISOM and ISSOM define the black line with dots as a stone wall or stone-faced bank. And the law is an ass.

Given the apparent height difference, I would like the map to tell me which side is "up". And that would suggest some other ways of describing the site.

Or was this just click-bait, heh heh.
Dec 4, 2016 3:41 PM # 
JimBaker:
Click bait, but good click bait. :-).

It's indeed good to make sure that it's unambiguous for both novice and expert. I don't see, though, anything making it ambiguous for either (having been both novice and experienced). I think that the issue with debating a blown up image is actually the reverse... we see lots of details to argue about in Brobdingnagian proportions, when an orienteer will see what's in the centre of the circle, glance at the control description, and think "OK, wall, inside northeastern corner". Confusion more often comes from overly complicated info. Simple description, well centred circle, smooth orienteering. Has anyone heard from an orienteer, experienced or not, who has been perplexed or hesitant about what location is meant if shown the control circle on a map of normal proportions and the description wall, inside northeastern (or northern) corner, sans the arrow? I'm very sceptical that such an orienteer will be found. :-). But let me (us) know if you find one, because then I'm clearly wrong.

This discussion thread is closed.