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Discussion: Congrats!

in: BigWillyStyle; BigWillyStyle > 2018-11-17

Nov 19, 2018 1:32 AM # 
LKohn:
Nice result, looks like you're running well.
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Nov 19, 2018 6:02 PM # 
BigWillyStyle:
Thanks Linda! Hope things are good.
Nov 19, 2018 6:38 PM # 
Tyrannosaurus:
ISSOM = do not cross!! Although I abide by the general rule of avoiding impassible fences at all times
Nov 20, 2018 6:16 AM # 
schristoph:
Good job Will!

For some reason this fence goofiness sounds like something my father would do
Nov 20, 2018 7:22 AM # 
Pink Socks:
It wasn't your dad.

It was someone who should be DQ'ed because he definitely knows better (he should know the rules because he's competed in big races and also makes maps). His argument (to me) is that he wasn't told beforehand that he couldn't jump the fence. So, does that mean that I can do whatever I want as long as it's not told to me in the start line? Take controls out of order? Remove controls? Ride a bike? The start volunteers never mention any of that.

This instance is BS. This isn't SART at SPU with 20 kids who don't know better (we DQ'ed 'em anyway). This is someone who knows the rules and thought he had a loophole: "It wasn't a sprint in distance and I wasn't told I couldn't". He said that if he was DQ'ed he'd file a protest. Looks like he wasn't DQ'ed.

Also: great job on the win (without cheating)!
Nov 20, 2018 7:38 PM # 
BigWillyStyle:
Thanks y'all. @Christophersons haha is your dad capable of climbing an 8-foot fence...?

IMO if you're at a local event and the words "file a protest" come out your mouth, check yourself.
Nov 21, 2018 9:57 AM # 
ledusledus:
Good run, Will!

About fence jumping - why the anonymity?
It was me.

I jumped the fences consistently. I jumped 2 times from 5-6; one of the uncrossable fences was ~5 feet, the other, maybe 7. If you don't consider the idea of fence jumping, the leg does not provide any choice. Second time I jumped it coming back for consistency purposes.

> His argument (to me) is that he wasn't told beforehand that he couldn't jump the fence.
I asked to be disqualified and also did say that I want to hand in a protest.
The protest would be for mis-advertising competition.

If you look at event page - no mention it will be a sprint; it is also 6.8 k long.
http://cascadeoc.org/event/winter-series-wiol-2-3/
Lots of mention of what is out of bounds, still no mention of fences. Same was repeated at start.

if you look at the map page linked from the event -
http://cascadeoc.org/map/hamlin-park-2/
it seems to show a non sprint map, that it is ISSOM is not said. In comparison, next event at least advertises that it is an ISSOM map.

I knew that in sprint orienteering you are not allowed to jump thick black fences. I did not know whether using sprint map for non-sprint event means you have to follow sprint rules. I have not drawn a single sprint map.
And yes, I have participated in a proper sprint on that map several times.

Race director said he is not accepting my disqualification.
What should I do?
Nov 21, 2018 10:00 AM # 
ledusledus:
I'm not sure what would be the problem with my protest - it would have an educational value of how to handle situations like this and likely would avoid the confusion in future.
Nov 21, 2018 6:03 PM # 
FrankTheTank:
I'd have to say that ISSOM map should follow that those rules are used even if not stated ahead of time. I agree, It probably would have been nice for the event organizers to state that it will be an ISSOM map. I'm thinking that more and more of our COC maps are being converted to ISSOM. I think it would be worthwhile to emphasize to the WIOL coaches the special rules for ISSOM so they can instruct the students accordingly. I think many coaches already know, but some may not. Adults jumping un-crossable fences doesn't really set a great example for the younger crowd. IMO, the distance is irrelevant, follow the rules of the map.
Nov 22, 2018 3:46 AM # 
BigWillyStyle:
That is a good point about the rules not being clear in the event info. Now that we're using more ISSOM maps for WIOL events we should be trying to educate people on that.
Nov 22, 2018 6:49 AM # 
bchristo:
"Thanks y'all. @Christophersons haha is your dad capable of climbing an 8-foot fence...?"

I can jump it in a single bound. How else can I beat Patrick?
Nov 28, 2018 7:37 PM # 
Pink Socks:
That is a good point about the rules not being clear in the event info. Now that we're using more ISSOM maps for WIOL events we should be trying to educate people on that.

Where does the responsibility lie for education of the rules to all participants?

How many of the rules do we expect the competitors to know, and how many of the rules do we expect the race organizer (in this case CascadeOC) to tell you?

In an absurd perversion of Peteris' argument, I could say that they didn't tell me in the start chute that I had to visit the controls in order. If I would have found all 19 in an optimized way, could I have claimed for it to be valid because they didn't explicitly tell me I couldn't do it beforehand?

At how many road races do they explicitly tell you that you can't take shortcuts or wear rollerskates? At how many soccer matches does the referee tell you beforehand that you can't touch the ball with your hands? Could I pick up the ball and throw it in the goal and claim that it should count because they didn't explicitly tell me about the rule beforehand? I feel like if you're participating in a sport, you should know the rules. And if you don't follow the rules, you should get penalized (and in some sports, the penalties are harsher: a DSQ in orienteering, vs. a point in volleyball or a foul in basketball).

Uncrossable walls on an ISSOM map are illegal to cross. That's a rule. And I feel that CascadeOC is doing a disservice to itself by not disqualifying people who break the rules, regardless of whether it was mentioned on the website or in the start chute, because then it opens up a slippery slope. Maybe I'll try taking the controls out of order at Shoreview on Saturday... (Also, was I too mean to DSQ all of those kids at SPU at SART?)

I've thought about this quite a bit, and I've found a similar analogy with volleyball. There's 6-man indoor volleyball, and 2-man beach volleyball, and they different rules about blocks, sets, and tips. Tipping is legal in 6-man indoor, but illegal in 2-man beach volleyball. They also differ in game length: 6-man indoor is best-of-five sets, which 2-man beach is best-of-three. If I were to enter a beach tournament where the organizers decided to have best-of-five matches, I wouldn't assume that I could legally tip the ball, and I wouldn't expect the referee to tell us that before the match.

I'm not against reminding people about ISSOM rules, but I don't feel like the responsibility should lie squarely with the organizers. This wasn't a "Hey, there's a new planting area that's not on the map, please stay out." This was repeated jumping over a thick black line symbol. I don't feel like there's a gray area here. There's literally a line, and it was literally crossed.
Nov 28, 2018 10:54 PM # 
BigWillyStyle:
Yeah I am certainly in favor of DQ'ing when appropriate, especially for those who know better (see: me DQ'ing myself at Lincoln Park). I was trying to think constructively about how we can be preventative rather than punitive, particularly in regard to the majority of WIOL kids who have no idea about ISOM vs. ISSOM - and since our next two events are on ISSOM maps with lots of potential for unknowing transgressions - so that ideally we can avoid these situations in the first place.

For WES events on sprint maps I used to put a blurb in the event info about olive green and thick black lines. Who knows if this actually helps or if anyone even reads it, but it's an easy step.

Could I pick up the ball and throw it in the goal and claim that it should count because they didn't explicitly tell me about the rule beforehand?

As a soccer referee I'd be highly amused by this. So amused that I'd be chuckling while giving the player a yellow card.
Nov 29, 2018 5:51 AM # 
ledusledus:
Patrick,

I am not sure what you are arguing here.

Is it whether I should have been disqualified? Yes, by book I should be disqualified.

Is it whether I should have _known_? I should have, but I did not.

Is it whether I should not write a protest? It was very unobvious to me that rules traditionally used in sprint competitions would apply in this case. In the race information it is nowhere to be found that ISSOM will be used and that, btw, means the boundaries are uncrossable. Lots of irrelevant data, like "red striped football field is out of bounds" was given though (not even sure why - it was all boundaried by terribly high fence). The competition itself is not what ISSOM is thought for; so it would just make sense to say something along the lines of "the race is not a sprint race, but ISSOM map specification applies for map and not race style". So yes, if I was disqualified, I would write a protest to get my money back. Is protest a wrong word for such activity? Worst case, a discussion similar to this would come up and we would get some form of sentence in course notes when ISSOM is used and maybe someone besides me would get the education at my cost. I think that race organization did not think about ISSOM specification and thus my ask to be disqualified was not accepted.

"In an absurd perversion of Peteris' argument, I could say that they didn't tell me in the start chute that I had to visit the controls in order."
We are on agreement here that you should be disqualified and a following protest would need to be addressed by race organization. Likely yours would be laughed out; beginner who did not know better should get his money back.

Alex: just to make sure - same map 2.5 years ago (ISOM spec) the impassable wall/fence symbol would be considered crossable if you can. It was marked as small fence then, however. (http://rg.cascadeoc.org/rg2/#166)

Will - educate everyone. I'll share this in facebook when have time.
Nov 29, 2018 7:24 AM # 
ledusledus:
Btw - course notes on next race say "The event will NOT use sprint rules. In particular, sprint event prohibitions on fence and wall crossings will not be in effect. In addition, all trails in the forest are mapped in varying thickness of black dashed lines, not solid brown."

Note that it says "sprint event prohibitions" and not "sprint map"...
Nov 29, 2018 5:07 PM # 
Pink Socks:
I'm really frustrated at the club right now. This is wrong.
Nov 29, 2018 6:03 PM # 
BigWillyStyle:
Agreed...
Nov 29, 2018 6:15 PM # 
FrankTheTank:
As a track coach we are required to take rules clinics online each year to stay updated on any rules changes. In addition to that, the WIAA usually publishes a rules emphasis document each year to make coaches aware of significant rules and/or rules changes. The coach is responsible for making sure the athletes know the rules. For o'ing it would be easy to disseminate a rules emphasis document out to all the WIOL coaches. It could also go out on FB and the COC website etc. to hit all the adult competitors as well. I do not agree with the "The event will NOT use sprint rules" statement. If using an ISSOM map then those rules should be followed regardless of competition length. There is a reason why things are mapped as un-crossable and olive green (OOB).
Nov 29, 2018 6:40 PM # 
Pink Socks:
Though, by technicality, the ShorelineCC/Shoreview map is no longer 100% ISSOM.

"In addition, all trails in the forest are mapped in varying thickness of black dashed lines, not solid brown."

---

My earlier argument was that you broke a rule, and the organization didn't enforce the rule, meaning that the criticism was equally, if not more, pointed at the race organizers than you, the rule-breaker.

And yes, communication and education could be better, but I don't like the argument of "I didn't know the rules, you didn't tell me the rules, therefore my result should stand."

By "protest", I mean having a valid result, not a money refund. If a control is in the wrong spot, say, you could protest, and if upheld, all of the results should be thrown out. In this case, I was interpreting it to mean "If you're going to disqualify me, I'm going to file a protest to either be reinstated in the results, or to have all of the results thrown out."
Nov 29, 2018 8:49 PM # 
W:
And may I say, while I feel your frustrations, I find it quite hilarious that you're having this debate about ISSOM map means ISSOM rules and then your club goes ahead and does exactly the opposite. Makes me feel like our clubs have something in common. :)

I'm sorry, but I chuckled.
Nov 30, 2018 12:08 AM # 
FrankTheTank:
Breaking news in my email inbox: "Sprint rules and DQ's are in effect" :)
Nov 30, 2018 12:55 AM # 
Pink Socks:
I'm getting this secondhand, but apparently a course designer with website admin rights acted unilaterally on some things, and said something along the lines of, "I'm not an expert or going to nit-pick on sprint map rules, and I don't see how crossing uncrossable objects will be an advantage, therefore sprint rules won't be in effect."
Nov 30, 2018 1:02 AM # 
FrankTheTank:
Maybe I should bring a "real" whistle and referee jersey on Saturday and hide out and wait for Peteris :)
Nov 30, 2018 5:58 AM # 
BigWillyStyle:
We (mostly) fixed it. It's amazing what some loud and obnoxious emailing can accomplish.
Nov 30, 2018 9:18 AM # 
Pink Socks:
I was the obnoxious one. Will was rather polite. What's funny is that we were both independently writing emails to the board about the same exact thing at the same exact time. And then later in the day, we were independently writing the same exact response at the same exact time.
Nov 30, 2018 1:58 PM # 
edwarddes:
I wish people would respect the ISSOM out of bounds symbols not just as rules that are trying to catch people or provide route choice, but that are frequently there for safety or venue permissions reasons.
When I talk to a venue its important that I can tell them confidently that people aren't going to go running through all of their flower beds, or go into areas they don't want people for whatever reason. I also look at walls and fences to think if I would want someone trying to leap over it at full speed in a race. Race brain is dumb, and I don't like to give it the opportunity to decide that jumping down a 10ft wall is a good idea!
Dec 1, 2018 1:56 AM # 
cmpbllv:
Oh, dear. Where would I find the notes you’re referring to for WIOL 3? Off to check the website...
Dec 1, 2018 2:03 AM # 
cmpbllv:
Ok, looks like this has been fixed, we will be following mapped forbidden-to-cross as drafted. I will add this to the discussion with course designers in our park-specific notes. Bottom line - there should be no confusion, follow the guidelines of the map. But if we’ve changed format or hybridized a map since last use, we need to make sure people are aware.

Nice job on the emails, guys!

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