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Discussion: WOC Trials 2019

in: 40th Annual West Point National Meet (Apr 27–28 - West Point, NY, US)

Mar 29, 2019 4:14 PM # 
schirminator:
Hi All,
With WOC changing to forest WOC there is no longer a sprint as part of the trials. With the new selection process there is an option to have a mass start relay event as part of the trials. The winner will receive and Auto qualifier to the relay team and the race will serve as a third evaluation race for the selection committee. I'm excited to say the HVO has agree to help me put this race on. It will take place Friday April 26 in Harriman State park.

The Event
The race will include two mass start races with forking and a brown course. The first mass start race will be for all WOC trials participants. The second mass start race will be for all other participants. The brown course is a shorter option for those looking for a little less of a physical challenge. Technically they will all be the same.

Schedule:
3:00-4:45pm Check in
4:00pm Trials mass start race (For all US and Canadian Men and Women trying out for their countries WOC teams)
4:45 pm Mass Start for all other participants and Start of Brown.
5:15 pm Last Start.
7:00 pm Courses close.

Registration
Step 1: Email erinschirm@gmail.com with name, SI #, and course your planning to run.
Step 2: Show up and pay on site between 3:00-4:45pm

Cost
Juniors $15
Everyone Else: $20

All proceeds after costs are covered will go back to the senior team! So come out watch some fun head to head racing between our elite athletes and get out and enjoy beautiful Harriman as a warm up for the annual West Point National Event.

Location:
Kanawauke picnic area. This will be the parking as well as the arena. Here is the address Kanawauke Rd, Bear Mountain, NY 10911
GPS Coordinates: 41.233242, -74.117266

Embargo: The whole Kanawauke map is embargoed from now on. This includes all terrain south of Kanawauke Rd, all terrain west of Seven lakes drive, and all terrain North of Sebago beach.

Course info:
Mas Start Race: 5-6k 150m of climb.
Brown: 4k 100m climb.

For questions please email me or respond to this thread.

Big thanks to HVO for supporting this event and to West Point for hosting the Middle and Long trials races as Part of their weekend!
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Mar 29, 2019 7:27 PM # 
BorisGr:
This is great. Thanks for making this happen, Erin!
Mar 29, 2019 9:33 PM # 
JLaughlin:
Just to clarify, people trying out for the team still need to register, correct?
Mar 30, 2019 3:27 AM # 
GuyO:
So the W Pt sprint is not an evaluation race for the US or Canadian WOC teams?
Mar 30, 2019 3:54 AM # 
ledusledus:
Uuuuuh, should I change my tickets? Can we have this on Saturday? Isn’t this a bit too last minute?

edited to add this to explain the disappointment my voice has:
1) Registration/website open at 14th of Feb. - a tad late, but it is just US and Canadian TT, its ok then?
2) organize family, find tickets for Friday. Pay $.
3) Less than month to the race "oh, there will be more".
4) tickets cannot be exchanged, so 200$+ more + figure out return ticket if that needs travel the other way.

If there is a way to protest this, I want to do that - how? It seems that Erin has figured that this will be a TT race, is he the sole authority and the official channel his email and this thread?

Please consider the following options:
1) cancel Friday event
2) remove its qualification status
3) keep winner->relay team, but do not keep the result in overall results.
4) move the Friday event to Saturday evening.

Also - is this the final version or will there be other changes? West coast is rather far, so if you want to add even more problems to people with plane tickets, an option could be to add another event on Thursday midday.

:(.
Mar 30, 2019 7:18 AM # 
ledusledus:
The team trial webpage still says: The Team Trials will be held 26-28 April 2019 during the West Point Orienteering Meet.
Mar 30, 2019 9:08 AM # 
Gswede:
The 26th is a Friday. So saying that the Team Trials are 26-28 is accurate.

This has also been in the selection criteria since December.
https://orienteeringusa.org/us-teams/senior/trials...

Your 3rd option is the current arrangement.
Mar 30, 2019 1:33 PM # 
ledusledus:
My 3rd option is not current arrangement: The winner will receive and Auto qualifier to the relay team and the race will serve as a third evaluation race for the selection committee.

So third evaluation race.

Saying that tt will be -during- west point meet is not precise. Because it happens 27-28.
Mar 30, 2019 1:38 PM # 
ledusledus:
In current event description:
This event will also be the site of this year's US/Canada WOC Team Trials.

And not “two thirds of the tt”
Mar 30, 2019 1:45 PM # 
ledusledus:
Per thread “any event info available”
an 9, 2019 1:08 PM#
cmpbllv:
The team is meeting this weekend, should be something up soon. S/M/L format. Sprint on Trophy Point, Middle on Main Post, Long at Camp Shea.

M and L are US Team Trials.
Mar 30, 2019 1:47 PM # 
Gswede:
But did you check the selection criteria also?
Mar 30, 2019 1:48 PM # 
JanetT:
There's an option to submit a petition.
Mar 30, 2019 2:00 PM # 
ledusledus:
Per sanctioning rules:

The makeup of the U.S. Team to the World Orienteering Championships (the WOC Team) is based primarily on the results of a team selection competition (the Team Trials) held during the period 2 to 4 months before the WOC. This competition can be held as part of a national event (A-meet), or it can be a separate event, subject to the regulations of a normal national event, except that only the M21 and F21 categories are required.


Says it can be separate or part of another competition but not partially part of another competition and partially separate.
Mar 30, 2019 3:38 PM # 
Cristina:
As someone watching from the outside (not competing but interested in how things go) I have to agree that this addition comes as a bit of a surprise. Seems like the communication could have been more clear from the beginning, something along the lines of, "We're hoping to have an additional race on Friday so please make plans accordingly" would have been helpful.
Mar 30, 2019 4:18 PM # 
AdventureGirl!:
Agreed, a little ‘this might happen’ blurb would have been appreciated. Had I known this was happening I would have considered deferring an exam on the Friday to be able to attend. With a lack of relay events in North America to begin with it really sucks that this was so last minute.

*Edit* and by "sucks" I mean that i'm just sad that i'm not able to take part in what I know will be a super fun and well organized event :)
Mar 31, 2019 12:43 AM # 
Nick:
what scale will be the map for sunday race ( team trials ) ?
Mar 31, 2019 3:43 AM # 
Jan Erik Naess:
I'm with Emma. I just went through a one month long process to defer my exam to the 25th so that I could make it there on the 26th. This is unacceptable to then change the selection policy.

We were not told that relay spots would be picked like this. It was officially said that spots would be picked through the winners of the long distance and middle distance races and that everything else would be picked base off of discretion and other relevant results. I cannot make it there until 4pm earliest and there is no way of rescheduling my exams.

Relative dates DO NOT matter when you have already specifically outlined the selection criteria and published it. Sorry for my annoyance but I know that I am speaking for every other person who lives far away and especially for those who are already having to defer exams, with this only weeks away from my exam period there is little chance that I can find a new time to take it. Even if I could it crams my schedule, making everything much more stressful. Please reconsider the date for this. I would happily do it on the Saturday.
Mar 31, 2019 3:45 AM # 
Jan Erik Naess:
Here is a citation from the Senior Selection Policy for team Canada.

"The West Point, NY, 27-28 April, 2019 event has been chosen as the Canadian Team selection
races, with a middle distance race on the Saturday and a long distance on the Sunday.
The Relay Teams’ running order shall be determined by the Team Coach."

http://www.orienteering.ca/wordpress/wp-content/up...
Mar 31, 2019 4:11 AM # 
Jan Erik Naess:
I would like to recommend the relay trials be put on Saturday afternoon 2.5 hours after the last middle distance finish. This gives people time for a quick nap, food, and to travel to the new location.

A relevant comparison is to how the Swiss team does there selections. They have a sprint race then a two or three hour break where people are able to eat, take a nap, and look over their course. They then rerun the sprint as a second selection race, further evaluating the athletes' fitness.

I think this would work fine for us. Anyone running WOC should be capable of running two races in a day, especially when everyone is under the same circumstances.
Mar 31, 2019 4:17 AM # 
Gswede:
Perhaps an Attackpoint forum isn't the best place to contact the people making those decisions.
Mar 31, 2019 4:19 AM # 
Jan Erik Naess:
^^ And to notify the athletes
Mar 31, 2019 4:27 AM # 
Gswede:
It sounds like something to bring up with the Canadian selection committee.
Mar 31, 2019 4:30 AM # 
ledusledus:
> Perhaps an Attackpoint forum isn't the best place to contact the people making those decisions.

Why is that?
Announcement to whoever registered for TT came not through email, but through this thread, and from just a little bit above: "For questions please email me or respond to this thread."
Mar 31, 2019 4:34 AM # 
Gswede:
It's my recommendation because internet forum discussions never seem to lead anywhere good, just a bunch of people pissed off at each other.
Mar 31, 2019 5:06 AM # 
ledusledus:
Is Erin the sole responsible person?
Mar 31, 2019 5:18 AM # 
AliC:
Something I think we can agree on: it shouldn't be tricky for athletes to figure out what races are part of their team trials for WOC. It seems like it has been tricky this year and that's not good. It's a shame that Peteris, Emma and Jan Erik won't get a chance to race on Friday when they might have been able to if they knew about this earlier.

Even if it doesn't matter for Canadian team trials (I honestly don't know if it counts or not for Can), Emma and JE are missing out on what sounds like will be a great race with some of the highest-level competition on this continent. And so we all miss out, because the race won't be quite as good without them and Peteris too. (Note: I knew about Fri plan earlier but I can't go anyways, because must teach my students on Fri and will have to take a red-eye straight to the Middle on Sat just to get there.)

Hope many *can* make the Friday race, it sounds like it will be awesome and I look forward to seeing who comes out on top! And many thanks to Erin + HVO for organizing it (and letting it be a senior team fundraiser) even if I can't partake!
Mar 31, 2019 5:40 AM # 
ledusledus:
Some spelling edits:

If I don't make my first flight, I lose my second, so one O' on East coast increased in price by 400$... I mean, I like O', I truly do, but that seems to be a tad high.
Mar 31, 2019 1:20 PM # 
jjcote:
If there is a way to protest this, I want to do that - how?

Well, there's always the option of filling a grievance with the Grievance Committee. (Hmm, no email address there, use jjcotelists@verizon.net)
Mar 31, 2019 2:07 PM # 
sberg:
The Canadian WOC Selection has not changed, and is the Middle on Saturday 27th and Long on Sunday 28th of April.
Changes to the Canadian selection policy is communicated to the Canadian athletes via the HPP Basecamp tool that is our official communication tool.
Mar 31, 2019 6:56 PM # 
schirminator:
Hey All,
Sorry for the confusion. Seems like my choice of words made things unclear. I’ll try to respond to as many points as I can.
1. We are currently discussing wheather to keep Friday as part of the USA trials race or not. We care about fairness and will do what’s best for everyone concerned. We will announce our decision tomorrow.

2. I apologize if I confused any Canadians. My intent was to include any national athletes in the trials head to head race to get some good competition, not to suggest that it is included in the Canadian trials. So my apologies there.

3. The event will happen regardless of weather it’s in the trials or not. I will announce any changes tomorrow. It will definitely happen and it will definitely be a team fundraiser and an opportunity to test out the format for future forest woc selection years. Please stay tuned on weather it will be included this year or not.

4. Map scale for Sunday can probably be found on the West Point A meet page. For the mass start Friday event it will be 1-10,000 and 1-7500 for brown.

5. Everyone participating in the event needs to email me their registration. For woc trials candidates please stay tune if the race is not included in the trials you may want to skip it to be fresh for the middle.

6. For future reference on the US WOC trials, please read the details. Once automatic qualifiers are selected the committee will then add people to the team based on a larger body of work some pieces are from the trials but there are multiple others such as training, larger body of racing over the year etc. So for selection each race is a new opportunity to win a spot. Your overall performance is a factor but gets linked in with a number of other factors based on a committee decision so missing a race does give you one less opportunity to win but does not really disadvantage you in the larger selection picture.

Please stay tune for the final decision. Thanks to those who emailed me for registration! Sorry for the confusion.
Mar 31, 2019 7:30 PM # 
yurets:
My advice --- send a grievance to JJ. I once did. It will make you feel better. It may even brighten your day.
Mar 31, 2019 9:29 PM # 
jjcote:
Note that I'm not inviting grievances; the Grievance Committee is always happiest when there's no grief (and most years, that's the case). But we are here to field any and all complaints that people find otherwise intractable.
Apr 2, 2019 4:49 AM # 
schirminator:
Here’s the update.

It’s been decided for the purposes of being fair and because we got the info out to late that the Friday April 26th event will not be included in the US team trials. For athletes who choose to race it will be considered in an athletes larger body of racing work for the year in cases of committee selection. So as it stands two automatic spots will be taken from the middle and one from the long. Any overall calculations will use only the middle and long.

For those athletes participating in the US trials who planned on arriving Friday for the event you are welcome to come and run seriously or as a tune up/model event for the weekend races free of charge. If your interested in running it as early as Thursday please let me know. Please also send your registration to me so I can account for maps.

For the event instead of two mass starts we will now do 1. Here is the revised schedule:
3:00-4:15 check in
4:30 everyone mass start.
4:45-5:15 brown starts are open.
Course closes at 6:30

Again my apologies for any inconvenience. I hope many of you will come out and enjoy Harriman and support the team! Make sure to email me your registration!
Apr 2, 2019 6:43 AM # 
Acampbell:
I missed all of this but I’m now MEGA PISSED OFF the other way!!!! For the USA team this was clear and my dad and such has already sorted time off work to get me to the Friday race in time. I have planned coming over from the UK knowing there were three days of racing in some order. And I’m not wanting to run the long because of an injury so this takes a selection race away from me and puts a second automatic spot to the middle race.
Thanks for changing the goal posts to a two year build up and someone who has looked into a full month off work unpaid if I make it. (Yes injury unplanned but still!)
I’m not sure why Canadian selections have to affect American ones?!?!?
Apr 3, 2019 1:08 AM # 
Rhombus:
This is what we call a big oof
Apr 4, 2019 10:26 PM # 
peggyd:
Just to clarify: the Canadian trials were added onto the US trials, and the only adjustment has been to add them to the start blocks, with breaks between the countries' athletes. We have not made any changes to our TT plans because of our fine friends to the north.

I'm so sorry Alison. I know this sucks for you. Since you're not aiming toward the long, you may want to run the relay as a race. The Selection Committee will look at how you navigated on the course. It's too bad most Trialers won't run it hard (or will skip it) because we could use more head-to-head results.

Come over and crush the middle race! Think positively and put this bad situation behind you.
Apr 26, 2019 1:04 AM # 
schirminator:
Course Notes for Friday Mass Start Harriman Event

Schedule:
3:30-4:15 Check in
4:15-4:25 Instructions for Mass Start
4:30- Mass Start
4:35-5:15 Brown Starts
6:30 Courses close and control pick up will start (If anyone wants to help it will go very fast)

Note: weather tomorrow is supposed to be rainy. We might get a window of no rain but be prepared for the weather. The bathrooms were closed today when we went to the park so please be aware that we will not have bathroom access. There are open bathrooms up the road at the Tirioti Circle. We apologize for this inconvenience. We will also not have snacks but will have some water near the finish and at the arena passage for the Mass start.

Course Details
Distance Climb Control Count
Mass Start 5.8 250m 23
Brown 3.7 125m 13

Mass Start course details:
Everyone will start at the same time. There will be no punch at the start. The course has multiple butterfly forking loops so make sure to pay attention to your map. This means that you will punch controls multiple times. Please note that I had to move the numbers for the control in the middle of the butterfly loop a little further from the circle so all the numbers did not cover details near the circle. The course has a map exchange. There will be two sides of the map. The controls are numbered consecutively. The flow is as follow, you’ll run the first loop which goes to the go control and then has an arena passage. At the arena you’ll flip your map to the next side and run the second loop. When finishing the second loop you’ll punch the go control and run to the finish.

Brown course details:
There will be a punch at the start. It’s a standard course point to point. Starts will be every min after the mass start. First come first serve we won’t have assigned start times.

Map:
The Kanawauke map is typical of Harriman with lots of rock features mountain laurel and blue berry. The blue berry is hardly an issue right now on this map as there are no leaves. There are a few spots where it’s knee high but is does not affect running speed much at all. Mountain laurel is thick in places but for the most part there are ways through it its just slow going. No leaves are out yet so visibility is very high except in denser areas of mountain laurel which never loses it leaves. We printed the map with reduced rocks and took out the rocky ground so that only the larger rocks and cliffs are on the map. Please note that there are areas where some larger boulders are not marked but for the most part it’s pretty good. I would not recommend using the rocks for relocation, the contours are very good and are generally the best navigational tool on the map. The map will be more legible with less detail. The go control had a little bit more green around it than we anticipated so our apologies but the first part of the run to the finish is a little thick. We have streamered it so it’s clear. Finally the map scale is 1-7500 for everything. The controls got a little tight on 1-10 so this way it’s a little more legible. Please note that if your used to 1-10 things will come up faster and the details on the map will be more spread out. Otherwise the woods are beautiful and were looking forward to a great event.
Apr 26, 2019 1:27 AM # 
bbrooke:
Thank you for all the details, Erin. Looking forward to it!
Apr 26, 2019 1:38 AM # 
jjcote:
This notion of leaving out the smaller rocks is intriguing. Seems like it has the potential to be a very good idea. I'll be interested in hearing how people like it.
Apr 26, 2019 4:35 PM # 
schirminator:
Hey Everyone, Because of storms this afternoon if you want to get there as early as 3 and start you are welcome to. We may have to close courses by 6 due to heavy rain.
Apr 27, 2019 1:31 PM # 
khall:
Any results from the Friday race?
Apr 27, 2019 1:33 PM # 
vmeyer:
vmeyer.net/results.html
Apr 28, 2019 1:42 AM # 
mikeminium:
Do you have a new link for those Friday results? That link now goes to West Point Sat/Sun.
Apr 28, 2019 2:06 AM # 
vmeyer:
Oh, sorry, that never was the link to Friday's results. I misread the query as being Saturday's race. :)
Apr 28, 2019 3:03 AM # 
jjcote:
Link is on HVO site, available in other thread.
Apr 28, 2019 10:32 AM # 
geof:
or here
http://hvorienteering.com/wp/index.php/event/harri...

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