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Attackpoint - performance and training tools for orienteering athletes

Discussion: Training in quarantine

in: Orienteering; General

Mar 16, 2020 9:21 AM # 
I anticipate us (Australia) getting quarantined once Voldemort is loose again and had been wondering what went on in other countries. This Reddit thread gives some detail on Italy (1 hour run) and Spain (nope).
Mar 16, 2020 9:54 AM # 
And in Nzed: biking, walking, running OK during self isolation.
Mar 16, 2020 12:05 PM # 
Doing fieldwork to make orienteering maps is the best form of self-quarantine I can imagine.
Mar 16, 2020 12:36 PM # 
Well Arnold is bench pressing a couple donkeys....
Mar 16, 2020 2:01 PM # 
One of which is a miniature pony. And he's not bench pressing them.
Mar 16, 2020 3:24 PM # 
In terms of treating pain or inflammation, you may want to reconsider using NSAIDs.


EDIT: The authorities are walking back their statements about NSAIDs.
Mar 17, 2020 12:37 AM # 
Any other source for this?
Mar 17, 2020 12:47 AM # 
this is the bmj paper linked to from another guardian article (criticising NHS advice to take ibuprofen)
Mar 17, 2020 12:48 AM # 
Interesting as out here, CO, the recommendation is ibuprofen and nsaids. Very confusing.
Mar 17, 2020 12:52 AM # 
Maybe not relevant, but it's suspected that one contributing factor in the 1918 flu pandemic was that doctors were recommending people take a lot of aspirin, which made things worse.
Mar 17, 2020 1:07 AM # 
My original source was my ex-brother-in-law who is an A&E doctor in the UK, but I figured I should find a more authoritative source.
Mar 17, 2020 8:33 AM # 
Cycling is banned in Italy and Spain, apparently because a cyclist might need a hospital bed if they have an accident. Surely in that case they should get all vehicles off the road because traffic accidents are much more likely than a biking accident?
Mar 17, 2020 3:53 PM # 
Simmo I've always thought that governments turn a blind eye when it comes to traffic related deaths. If there was a death involved in sport, there'd be a major investigation and depending on the circumstances, the event would be cancelled but when it comes to vehicle deaths, we just accept it and move on because people cannot do without their precious cars.
Mar 17, 2020 6:20 PM # 
Peeling back the layers of the CoV onion, first reported via the BBC today.
Mar 17, 2020 7:42 PM # 
Well, that's a document that could certainly use some translation into the vernacular. Looks like it says, "A Chinese woman got sick, but not too badly, and after a certain number of days, she recovered"?
Mar 18, 2020 3:02 AM # 
Cycling industry and health experts call on Britain not to ban cycling. Hopefully Boris a cyclist (or former cyclist at least) will take heed.

And a cycling wag responding to this article on Twitter - if only we could get drivers to take this seriously!
Mar 18, 2020 3:56 AM # 
Interesting in that article that Germany is explicitly encouraging cycling as a safer alternative to public transport.
Mar 18, 2020 5:40 AM # 
Most Parkruns around the world have been suspended.
Mar 18, 2020 7:44 AM # 
My life is over.
Mar 18, 2020 8:47 AM # 
Why, tRicky? You got a virus in your computer?
Mar 18, 2020 8:54 AM # 
tRicky lives and breathes parkrun. Without parkrun, there is no tRicky.

Rest in Peace my husband. One day you will run a parkrun again.
Mar 18, 2020 8:54 AM # 
Whitford Nodes originally cancelled this weekend's parkrun due to the Castaway concert, which is now also cancelled due to coronavirus, which means the parkrun could go ahead except it's been cancelled due to coronavirus.
Mar 18, 2020 9:18 AM # 
Should it even be a parkrun if it starts at 8 ?
Mar 18, 2020 9:39 AM # 
Don't they all start at 8am in NSW except for a couple of weirdo ones?
Mar 18, 2020 3:01 PM # 
If only I could bench press a donkey / miniature pony.
Mar 18, 2020 3:28 PM # 
Mr Wonderful:
Miniature pony can be as light as 150 lbs, that should be within the rage of many. The small donkey would start to get more challenging at 200 lbs, and certainly the combined 350 is starting to get a bit rare even with quality training.
Mar 18, 2020 6:00 PM # 
I've noticed mentions on some AP logs of people getting together for online group workouts at home. That seems like a great way to help motivate each other. Maybe this could be either expanded or replicated for the benefit of more? It might help to replace a little bit of that missing social element that happens at the finish line of all the O meets we won't be attending this year.
Mar 19, 2020 2:54 AM # 
The ones I sampled started at 7, I can't vouch for their relative weirdness. I did one overseas hat started at 8. Luxury.
Mar 19, 2020 4:44 AM # 
7am clashes with shopping hour for me!
Mar 19, 2020 6:04 AM # 
I hear that hour requires body armour.
Mar 19, 2020 6:15 AM # 
Are shops even open at 7am in WA?
Mar 19, 2020 7:23 AM # 
Coles, Woolies and Aldi (maybe some IGAs) are open from 7-8 for people with a healthcare or seniors card. You might want to know tRicky, that they will also all be closing an hour earlier at 8pm. Buy a newspaper or check the ABC website!

Yes TIL, but now there are cops patrolling the supermarket aisles in WA.
Mar 19, 2020 8:07 AM # 
Buy a newspaper - what with, my government stimulus package? Oh wait, I don't qualify.

Speaking of ABC, Mad as Hell was a lot easier to watch last night without the audience laughing at nothing every five seconds.

TIL... time in lieu? I have plenty of that. I assume this means the pensioners will now buy out the toilet paper before anyone else can get any.
Mar 19, 2020 1:19 PM # 
EDIT: The authorities are walking back their statements about NSAIDs.
Mar 19, 2020 2:10 PM # 
Kris Jones appears to be over 11 hours of training this week, which is a pretty decent amount to say the least!
Mar 19, 2020 3:07 PM # 
Closer to home, Greg A is over 9 hours!
Mar 19, 2020 6:36 PM # 
Thankfully not quarantined yet. I have worked out a 400m loop in the woods at my parents' new house for that eventuality.
Mar 20, 2020 6:09 AM # 
Belgian mapper Thibaut Derenne's solution.
Mar 20, 2020 7:38 AM # 
The ones I sampled started at 7, I can't vouch for their relative weirdness. I did one overseas hat started at 8. Luxury.

For some reason I thought you were referring to Simmo's shopping hours when I read that originally, even though he commented after you.

Typically in Aus across the middle of the country parkruns start at 8am. Tas they start at 9am and in the northern states (Qld, NT and northern WA), they start at 7am. There's at least one in NSW that starts at 7am too (Centennial, this is due to school events clashing at 8am).

In Europe they typically start at 9am or 9:30am if you head into Scandinavia or northern UK.
Mar 20, 2020 11:37 AM # 
Northline Navigation / WNC Orienteering has a neat idea on the go. I think it is called
'Orienteering on Demand'
You request a map of an area.
NN makes the map and sets a course using Open Street Map to OCAD or OOM then Purple Pen resources then sends you the map.
Another great idea from the most innovative orienteering club in America.
Mar 20, 2020 12:50 PM # 
tRicky, to add to your list, 3 of the 4 I've run in Sydney start at 7 (Centennial, Willoughby and Campbelltown, which was started by an orienteer), although most of the others around here are 8.
Mar 20, 2020 12:51 PM # 
Figured there may be more but I wasn't going to sift through them all! Hard enough keeping track of my local ones.
Mar 22, 2020 2:44 PM # 
New article in The Conversation.

“Anxiety about coronavirus can increase the risk of infection — but exercise can help”
Mar 22, 2020 9:38 PM # 
An Apple news article talked about getting outside to learn "map and compass" skills, and specifically mentioned orienteering but said it was too hard to explain. :-D
Mar 23, 2020 12:01 AM # 
But it did link to your national association web site. Must have been a spike in traffic.
Mar 23, 2020 1:27 AM # 
I was going to make a comment about Apple saying that navigation is a core skill but I can't even find a mention of the word apple on that entire page.

'Learn how to start a fire' - I'm sure that article would go down well in Australia.
Mar 23, 2020 2:09 AM # 
Canadian athletes will not compete at Tokyo 2020 Olympics due to risks of COVID-19
Mar 23, 2020 2:11 AM # 
Wow. We knew it was coming but it's still sad to hear it.
Mar 23, 2020 2:23 AM # 
Australian television is still beating the promotion drum telling us to go and support our athletes (from home).
Mar 23, 2020 2:27 AM # 
Except for this.
Mar 23, 2020 12:06 PM # 

what us sad, to me, is that the leadership from this has had to come from the Canadian Olympic Committer and not the IOC / Tokyo organizers. Even if the event is able to go ahead, half the athletes will make the decision not to go (or have the decision made for them like in Canada) and the other half won't be prepared for it. Just make the call to cancel or postpone it already!
Mar 23, 2020 12:11 PM # 
Totally agree. I’m proud that the COC had the guts to take action now.
Mar 23, 2020 12:23 PM # 
so much inward thinking from sports large and small. In Australia the Rugby league was dragged to the table bleating that they would go broke while literally 10s of thousands of people were lining up for Centrelink (Australian dole) registrations and pensions

I am afraid to say even our beloved sport where people seem to be trying to dream up ways to "keep going" when we should be advocating for people to stay home and or close to home. Don't driving off to forest somewhere - just go for a run around your streets. We are not special or immune from catching or spreading Covid-19
Mar 23, 2020 1:34 PM # 
I've forwarded Bryce's Suburb Run website onto Council so that people can 'run around the streets'.
Mar 23, 2020 2:47 PM # 
Already done that tRicky - should be in e-news tomorrow.
Mar 23, 2020 3:16 PM # 
How are you folks in Aus handling the insurance issues for these pop-up events?
Mar 23, 2020 3:32 PM # 
Suburb Run isn't a pop up event. Print your own map, go out and run around the streets whenever you like, no controls or anything. Basically a permanent course but without the markers. No association with our governing body.

I think Vic or NSW may have had occasional pop up sprints (so I read from Eventor) but we don't have anything like that in WA. Hard enough to get people to come to events promoted a month in advance!
Mar 24, 2020 1:40 AM # 
Suburb Run has a disclaimer in the Terms and Conditions on its website.
Mar 24, 2020 1:45 AM # 
Orienteering Australia's insurance covers 'events and organised coaching sessions', which arguably includes these pop-ups. If an event or activity is in Eventor, then we've been advised previously that it is insured, so appears that those NSW/Vic events would be covered. Maybe Blair can confirm.
Mar 24, 2020 1:48 AM # 
Victoria and Qld are putting their Maplink and MapRun anytime activities on Eventor.
Mar 24, 2020 4:05 AM # 
This will encourage some people to travel to where the "event" isn't. I'm with Richard. Really disappointed in the lack of responsibility from OA and ONSW, I know its just probably just a few die-hards dragging the chain, but its somebody else who may die hard.

I did think that the DIY event was OK (even having processed what went down in Italy), but looking at the UK going down the tubes bought it home that we should be in lock down right now.

(interesting Q&A from a critical care doctor in the uk - the scariest bit is where a UK surgeon says that they have been cross-training to help but he is obviously shit scared that they won't be competent enough. The theme of not having enough PPEs is common to the health service in Australia. )
Mar 24, 2020 4:48 AM # 
I don't often agree with Scomo (Australian Prime Minister in relation to panic buying in the shops), but as he said a few days ago "Just stop it"

Surely as orienteers we can see that we can do our little bit to help slow the spread.

It may seem that it will not make a difference, but it is the same argument that as Australia is "just" 1.3% of global carbon emissions then there is little point in Australia taking a leading position on limiting that other existential problem of today!
Mar 24, 2020 7:00 AM # 
Have to laugh at the celebrity chef on the Coles ads (Curtis Stone) thanking Aussies for being considerate and not running the shops out of items like toilet paper. Well there was definitely none there when I went this morning, or pasta, rice, Milo :-(, paper towels, the good mince (got the pork variety though), etc.

I got pinged for having more than two tins of veggies, two of which were tomatoes, one of champignons and one of red kidney beans. Didn't realise any of those were vegetables and aside from the two tomatoes, it's not like any of them were the same (the woman let me buy them on two transactions).
Mar 24, 2020 7:31 AM # 
undy I don't know about ONSW, but all that VOA and (hopefully) OWA are doing at the moment is encouraging 'going for a run around the streets'. That was a quote from Richard yesterday, but now he seems to think we should all stay in our homes.

I'll remind you of the UK experts linked in my second post to this thread and their view of the importance of outdoor exercise. Interesting that BoJo has specifically allowed this in his latest crackdown, but I don't trust Scomo to do the same as he's a spectator slob with a beer gut.
Mar 24, 2020 7:53 AM # 
Spectator or spectacular?
Mar 24, 2020 11:10 AM # 
I’m digging Scomo and BoJo as shortenings. Doesn’t work as well for the North American heads.
Mar 24, 2020 11:17 AM # 
DJT shall not be dignified by having even part of his name spoken.
Mar 24, 2020 11:20 AM # 
Well Ontario as DoFo.

aka trump-lite

He recently told Ontarians to travel and have fun
Mar 24, 2020 12:03 PM # 
FFS are these people are leaders!
Mar 24, 2020 12:07 PM # 
@LOST richard said "just go for a run around YOUR streets."

NO unnecessary travel. Stay local. Stay at home.
Mar 24, 2020 2:32 PM # 
Because most of us must stay at home for a while, I created a Facebook group for sharing theoretical and virtual orienteering exercises that can be done at home. It would be nice if many would share their creative ideas.
Mar 24, 2020 4:14 PM # 
My sisters who are all long term FB advocates have found themselves disconnecting from it due to an absurd number of stupid people on there during this crisis so social media is about as popular as social distancing for them at the moment.
Mar 24, 2020 11:38 PM # 
@simmo - what fizzyred said

@Cristina - Scomo is passe, the new kids are using Scovid, but Smoko is still popular (as a nickname, not the politician)
Mar 25, 2020 6:42 AM # 
definitely - what fizzyred said!
Mar 25, 2020 9:47 AM # 
Most of the above are why AP is not my source for what to do. I know some of you are making light hearted comments but thank you to Richard and Fizzy Red for a couple of more serious posts.
Mar 25, 2020 10:19 AM # 
One simple message

“stay local and stay at home”
Mar 25, 2020 10:48 AM # 
Though I'm no expert, I think the big problem is not necessarily people going out(side), it's people going out and gathering in public spaces, e.g. the Bondi Beach incident - for those unfamiliar even after the government advice, thousands flocked to the beach and it ultimately had to be closed to prevent people going there. People aren't always the brightest.

Shopping's always going to be a problem. You can't avoid groceries and you also can't avoid other people/touching shopping trolleys/food that others have put back while you're out there.

You'll may also notice the WA govt has had the bright idea of limiting daily alcohol purchases to some amount that I would most certainly consider unhealthy drinking on any given day (one carton of beer, cider or RTDs/three bottles of wine/a litre of spirits/a litre of fortified wine - or any combination of two of those). Anyone drinking any of those on any given day would in my opinion be blind drunk for the day and all it's really doing (for those who do happen to be alcoholics) is to encourage people to go to the bottle shop more often.
Mar 25, 2020 11:41 AM # 
Sorry Richard, but your message is not simple, it's just as mixed as some of Scomo's. Surely you mean 'stay home most of the time, and if you do go out, stay local'.

Then, how do you define 'local'?
Mar 25, 2020 3:29 PM # 
@tRicky and WA limit on alcohol: Hmm, I actually agree with tRicky - limiting daily alcohol sales sounds stupid to me. Seems to me, that just means that the people who drink a lot will be making multiple trips to the store on multiple days, perhaps driving there when less than sober. Its not likely to reduce the amount of alcohol they consume, just how often they have to go out in public, perhaps with the additional threat of doing so while intoxicated.
Mar 25, 2020 3:31 PM # 
Is the limit intended to prevent hoarding and shortages?
Mar 25, 2020 6:10 PM # 
Around here, the use of shopping trolleys is discouraged (in favour of baskets brought along); but if you do use them, the handles must be cleaned after each customer.
Mar 25, 2020 11:01 PM # 
Oh no, however would the country survive with an alcohol shortage! Well this is Australia so it would probably implode.
Mar 25, 2020 11:29 PM # 
Maybe people are trying to use liquor as a disinfectant. There were recipes floating around a week or two ago about mixing aloe vera gel with vodka to use as hand sanitizer.
Mar 26, 2020 12:29 AM # 
WA probably did it because they're used to liquor stores in Karratha and Port Hedland being stripped bare as soon as a cyclone warning is declared.
Mar 26, 2020 3:06 AM # 
Silly me - I didn't know that alcohol was a staple. Surely there are some things - if it runs out... it runs out.
Mar 26, 2020 3:09 AM # 
And then you drink the hand gel...(I'm not kidding; we have known hospitalised alcoholics to do this.)
Mar 26, 2020 4:07 AM # 
"In my day'... it was just the meths...
Apr 4, 2020 5:14 AM # 
Further to my post of a couple of weeks ago linking this humourous tweet it is probably true that there'e a higher risk of catching Covid-19 from an infected runner or cyclist. Turns out that if you're breathing faster, there's a bigger volume of virus droplets, and more likelihood of aerosollising them.

So if there'e the slightest chance that you might be infected, don't go running or cycling. If you're Zwifting, disinfect the room afterwards and don't let anyone else go in there.

Just as well that gyms are closed, and the Olympics postponed.

And everyone else should stay well away from any other runners or cyclists they come across - especially if you're a car driver :d.
Apr 4, 2020 3:23 PM # 
If there's the slightest chance that I'm infected, it won't matter, because the places where I run are places where nobody else goes.
Apr 4, 2020 5:11 PM # 
where we're going we need no roads
Apr 4, 2020 5:53 PM # 
this is heavy
Apr 4, 2020 9:13 PM # 
Mr Wonderful:
Could you have lived with people for three weeks without spreading it, sharing kitchen, bathroom, couch...and then finally nail them by Zwifting? I would have lost a bet on that one.
Apr 5, 2020 4:52 AM # 
this virus is fairly large and heavy, much heavier than any of the molecules of atmospheric gases. It stays in the air in aerosol form, let's say, after a cough for very short time and it drops down to underlying surface. So distancing from other runners shell work fine. It is tougher with cyclists: speed is high and air turbulence on high speed could help to keep it in the air longer.
I have seen runners in masks, not that many though, in last couple of days.
Apr 5, 2020 9:13 AM # 
Here in Finland it seems that everybody is going outside(especially to the national parks) on a walk/hike/run. It's so crowded that you can barely keep enough distance between when running past people. But, once you step a few meters of the trails its empty, peaceful spring forest at its best!
Apr 5, 2020 11:33 AM # 

I think it can stay in the air for longer than what you've said.

From the Harvard Health site:

A study done by National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases' Laboratory of Virology in the Division of Intramural Research in Hamilton, Montana helps to answer this question. The researchers used a nebulizer to blow coronaviruses into the air. They found that infectious viruses could remain in the air for up to three hours. The results of the study were published in the New England Journal of Medicine on March 17, 2020.
Apr 5, 2020 11:43 AM # 
That's in a lab, of course. In a significantly different environment, say, outdoors with a crosswind, the parcel of air that you pass through is completely different from the parcel of air that the person ahead of you passed through.
Apr 5, 2020 12:19 PM # 
How do you think O-Ringen organisers are going to disguise a gathering of 9000 people. Sweden has a limit of 50, but seems to be quite relaxed overall.
Apr 5, 2020 2:37 PM # 
From beloved NYT: "Dr. Marr said based on physics, an aerosol released at a height of about six feet would fall to the ground after 34 minutes. The findings should not cause the general public to panic, however, because the virus disperses quickly in the air".

More over, pseudo scientists like to publish studies done far from reality, a true scientist would have to work with infected humans, have them exhale, cough and sneeze, and measure, compare results, publish graphs. If 0.01 % of virus can be found in the air after 30 minutes when 99.99 hits the ground, that would be a scientific statement.
More over did anybody even studied the physical density of the this virus, how it behaves submerged in water or surrounded by it, like in aerosol?

Also outdoors, were we have significant amount of UV-A. UV-B and small amounts UV-C, especially on a sunny day, how long does that thing is infections in all different forms.

And than you inform the public, and make decisions on accepted public behavior.

Critical thinking is no longer the reality of modern education system, with rare exception of technical schools disciplines, that can not develop without such. It is a heard thinking consensus, if majority of pear "scientists" think it is right it must be right. It is "impolite" to ask critical questions.

I am watching very carefully the nation of Belarus that did not shut down economical activities so far, has 9.5 million population, and bordering European Union, that got hit hard.
It is a asocial experiment that only a dictator could afford. They could be on a later part of infection spread curve. Time will show.
Apr 5, 2020 3:51 PM # 
BTW, orienteering teaches critical thinking, in my opinion. When you are on the course, most of the time you make decisions by yourself, right and wrong, learn from it constantly and adapt. Ability to adapt quickly to unknown terrain, mapping style is very noticeable among elite orienteers, since we get to watch them more than the rest of us.
Apr 5, 2020 5:44 PM # 
I'm pretty sure most experts agree that the UV levels from the sun are not nearly high enough to have a significant on the virus.

But it sounds like you're already quite confident.
Apr 6, 2020 2:49 AM # 
How is that O-Ringing is still on?
Apr 6, 2020 3:53 AM # 
Still plenty of time to cancel it. Nobody gets infected if it hasn't happened yet.
Apr 6, 2020 5:09 AM # 
Sweden is different
Apr 6, 2020 9:58 AM # 
Leave it to the people seems inconsistent with their tough line on full body cover.
Apr 6, 2020 12:32 PM # 
On NPR this morning, Dr Harvey Feinberg, almost like he was overhearing Greg (DB) and Greg's discussion about droplets and aerosols.
Apr 6, 2020 12:50 PM # 
That's reassuring to hear.
Apr 6, 2020 6:38 PM # 
NPR? Seriously? That communist nest should have been defunded years ago
Apr 6, 2020 8:18 PM # 
There you go. "If you can't attack the message attack the messenger."
Apr 6, 2020 9:22 PM # 
Funded primarily by the listeners, at pledge drive time. You can't get much more communist than that, I suppose.
Apr 7, 2020 8:51 AM # 
Apr 10, 2020 12:39 AM # 
Watch out for the slipstream?
Apr 10, 2020 2:51 AM # 
Yeah, normally I'm always grateful for a wheel to hang on to, but lately I've been hanging back instead. And if an unwanted passenger gets on my wheel, a couple of coughs usually discourages them.
Apr 10, 2020 3:25 AM # 
Elsewhere I'm reading that the true hazard is singing...
Apr 10, 2020 4:19 AM # 
I have never heard simmo sing and I am not sure I want to, (anymore than you would want to hear me sing)
Apr 11, 2020 12:03 AM # 
Good to see Ecmo doing his bit.
Apr 12, 2020 8:12 AM # 
More on slipstream droplets.
Apr 12, 2020 9:00 AM # 
One thing we've seen rather too much of in the last few weeks is reports which make no distinction between high risks (which seem to mostly involve crowded indoor spaces) and negligible-but-not-absolutely-zero risks. This seems another example of the genre.
Apr 12, 2020 2:32 PM # 
It also strikes me as the kind of work where they started out with a conclusion in mind, and did some simulations to support that conclusion. It may get completely shredded when it goes through peer review. We'll see.
Apr 12, 2020 3:19 PM # 
If you have Facebook, you can read what one physician said about this simulation. Bottom line: She isn't as concerned.
Apr 16, 2020 9:34 PM # 
Oh, DarthBalter and critical thinking! I think this is the highest form of Baltering!
Apr 16, 2020 9:42 PM # 
Seriously, my club is planning for a "socially distanced" event while we are not hard quarantined yet:
- Controls are set with control codes visible, no need to touch.
- Maps and instructions are pre-printed and put out for pick up at the start location, use gloves to pick and insert into your own map bag. discard after the run.
- Self-timing and result self reporting via email is encouraged.
- Event is spread across two weekend days so no chance of gathering.
- Virtual meeting is set to discuss and share after the event.

Of course, similar is possible only in parts of country that uses "social distancing". Quarantine similar to China's would make it impossible.
Apr 16, 2020 11:27 PM # 
In Florida where I am they have just passed a big milestone. Now just more than 1/10th of 1% of the population is or has been a confirmed case of COVID-19.
Your state's numbers are probably similar.
We should be careful and follow mask and social distancing advice but we don't have to be bat-shit crazy about people avoidance. (OOPS bat-shit is probably not a good descriptive in this case).
Apr 16, 2020 11:51 PM # 
Why the need to discard the map after the run?
Apr 17, 2020 12:26 AM # 
gordhun, anyway the chance of dying of covid in FL is negligibly small compared to being strangled and swallowed by a giant python
Apr 17, 2020 3:28 AM # 
I wouldn't be concerned about a python, I just googled it and I just have to stay away from computer programming.
Apr 17, 2020 3:52 AM # 
What part of "There's not a snake in the world that's interested in eating you" was unclear?
Apr 17, 2020 4:21 AM # 
I beg to differ.
Apr 17, 2020 4:56 AM # 
Yet another AP thread has gone to the snakes...
Apr 17, 2020 2:36 PM # 
And cmpblla wasn't even the instigator!
Apr 17, 2020 9:32 PM # 
For either one!
Apr 17, 2020 11:15 PM # 
I believe we have a two time offender in the case of snake derailing.

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