Discussion: Training in quarantine

I anticipate us (Australia) getting quarantined once Voldemort is loose again and had been wondering what went on in other countries. This Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fj5409/i_am... gives some detail on Italy (1 hour run) and Spain (nope).

And in Nzed: biking, walking, running OK during self isolation.

Doing fieldwork to make orienteering maps is the best form of self-quarantine I can imagine.

Well Arnold is bench pressing a couple donkeys....

One of which is a miniature pony. And he's not bench pressing them.

In terms of treating pain or inflammation, you may want to reconsider using NSAIDs.

anti-inflammatory-drugs-may-aggravate-coronavirus-infection

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/anti...

EDIT: The authorities are walking back their statements about NSAIDs.

Any other source for this?

this is the bmj paper linked to from another guardian article (criticising NHS advice to take ibuprofen) https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6041

Interesting as out here, CO, the recommendation is ibuprofen and nsaids. Very confusing.

Maybe not relevant, but it's suspected that one contributing factor in the 1918 flu pandemic was that doctors were recommending people take a lot of aspirin, which made things worse.

My original source was my ex-brother-in-law who is an A&E doctor in the UK, but I figured I should find a more authoritative source.

Cycling is banned in Italy and Spain, apparently because a cyclist might need a hospital bed if they have an accident. Surely in that case they should get all vehicles off the road because traffic accidents are much more likely than a biking accident?

Simmo I've always thought that governments turn a blind eye when it comes to traffic related deaths. If there was a death involved in sport, there'd be a major investigation and depending on the circumstances, the event would be cancelled but when it comes to vehicle deaths, we just accept it and move on because people cannot do without their precious cars.

Peeling back the layers of the CoV onion, first reported via the BBC today.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0819-2

Well, that's a document that could certainly use some translation into the vernacular. Looks like it says, "A Chinese woman got sick, but not too badly, and after a certain number of days, she recovered"?

Cycling industry and health experts call on Britain not to ban cycling. Hopefully Boris a cyclist (or former cyclist at least) will take heed.

And a cycling wag responding to this article on Twitter - if only we could get drivers to take this seriously!

Interesting in that article that Germany is explicitly encouraging cycling as a safer alternative to public transport.

Most Parkruns around the world have been suspended.

My life is over.

Why, tRicky? You got a virus in your computer?

tRicky lives and breathes parkrun. Without parkrun, there is no tRicky.

Rest in Peace my husband. One day you will run a parkrun again.

Whitford Nodes originally cancelled this weekend's parkrun due to the Castaway concert, which is now also cancelled due to coronavirus, which means the parkrun could go ahead except it's been cancelled due to coronavirus.

Should it even be a parkrun if it starts at 8 ?

Don't they all start at 8am in NSW except for a couple of weirdo ones?

If only I could bench press a donkey / miniature pony.

Miniature pony can be as light as 150 lbs, that should be within the rage of many. The small donkey would start to get more challenging at 200 lbs, and certainly the combined 350 is starting to get a bit rare even with quality training.

I've noticed mentions on some AP logs of people getting together for online group workouts at home. That seems like a great way to help motivate each other. Maybe this could be either expanded or replicated for the benefit of more? It might help to replace a little bit of that missing social element that happens at the finish line of all the O meets we won't be attending this year.

The ones I sampled started at 7, I can't vouch for their relative weirdness. I did one overseas hat started at 8. Luxury.

7am clashes with shopping hour for me!

I hear that hour requires body armour.

Are shops even open at 7am in WA?

Coles, Woolies and Aldi (maybe some IGAs) are open from 7-8 for people with a healthcare or seniors card. You might want to know tRicky, that they will also all be closing an hour earlier at 8pm. Buy a newspaper or check the ABC website!

Yes TIL, but now there are cops patrolling the supermarket aisles in WA.

Buy a newspaper - what with, my government stimulus package? Oh wait, I don't qualify.

Speaking of ABC, Mad as Hell was a lot easier to watch last night without the audience laughing at nothing every five seconds.

TIL... time in lieu? I have plenty of that. I assume this means the pensioners will now buy out the toilet paper before anyone else can get any.

EDIT: The authorities are walking back their statements about NSAIDs.

Kris Jones appears to be over 11 hours of training this week, which is a pretty decent amount to say the least!

Closer to home, Greg A is over 9 hours!

Thankfully not quarantined yet. I have worked out a 400m loop in the woods at my parents' new house for that eventuality.

Belgian mapper Thibaut Derenne's solution.

The ones I sampled started at 7, I can't vouch for their relative weirdness. I did one overseas hat started at 8. Luxury.

For some reason I thought you were referring to Simmo's shopping hours when I read that originally, even though he commented after you.

Typically in Aus across the middle of the country parkruns start at 8am. Tas they start at 9am and in the northern states (Qld, NT and northern WA), they start at 7am. There's at least one in NSW that starts at 7am too (Centennial, this is due to school events clashing at 8am).

In Europe they typically start at 9am or 9:30am if you head into Scandinavia or northern UK.

Northline Navigation / WNC Orienteering has a neat idea on the go. I think it is called
'Orienteering on Demand'
You request a map of an area.
NN makes the map and sets a course using Open Street Map to OCAD or OOM then Purple Pen resources then sends you the map.
Another great idea from the most innovative orienteering club in America.

tRicky, to add to your list, 3 of the 4 I've run in Sydney start at 7 (Centennial, Willoughby and Campbelltown, which was started by an orienteer), although most of the others around here are 8.

Figured there may be more but I wasn't going to sift through them all! Hard enough keeping track of my local ones.

New article in The Conversation.

“Anxiety about coronavirus can increase the risk of infection — but exercise can help”

https://theconversation.com/anxiety-about-coronavi...

An Apple news article talked about getting outside to learn "map and compass" skills, and specifically mentioned orienteering but said it was too hard to explain. :-D

But it did link to your national association web site. Must have been a spike in traffic.

I was going to make a comment about Apple saying that navigation is a core skill but I can't even find a mention of the word apple on that entire page.

'Learn how to start a fire' - I'm sure that article would go down well in Australia.

Canadian athletes will not compete at Tokyo 2020 Olympics due to risks of COVID-19

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/canadian-olympi...

Wow. We knew it was coming but it's still sad to hear it.

Australian television is still beating the promotion drum telling us to go and support our athletes (from home).

Except for this.

@bash,

what us sad, to me, is that the leadership from this has had to come from the Canadian Olympic Committer and not the IOC / Tokyo organizers. Even if the event is able to go ahead, half the athletes will make the decision not to go (or have the decision made for them like in Canada) and the other half won't be prepared for it. Just make the call to cancel or postpone it already!

Totally agree. I’m proud that the COC had the guts to take action now.

so much inward thinking from sports large and small. In Australia the Rugby league was dragged to the table bleating that they would go broke while literally 10s of thousands of people were lining up for Centrelink (Australian dole) registrations and pensions

I am afraid to say even our beloved sport where people seem to be trying to dream up ways to "keep going" when we should be advocating for people to stay home and or close to home. Don't driving off to forest somewhere - just go for a run around your streets. We are not special or immune from catching or spreading Covid-19

I've forwarded Bryce's Suburb Run website onto Council so that people can 'run around the streets'.

Already done that tRicky - should be in e-news tomorrow.

How are you folks in Aus handling the insurance issues for these pop-up events?

Suburb Run isn't a pop up event. Print your own map, go out and run around the streets whenever you like, no controls or anything. Basically a permanent course but without the markers. No association with our governing body.

I think Vic or NSW may have had occasional pop up sprints (so I read from Eventor) but we don't have anything like that in WA. Hard enough to get people to come to events promoted a month in advance!

Suburb Run has a disclaimer in the Terms and Conditions on its website.

Orienteering Australia's insurance covers 'events and organised coaching sessions', which arguably includes these pop-ups. If an event or activity is in Eventor, then we've been advised previously that it is insured, so appears that those NSW/Vic events would be covered. Maybe Blair can confirm.

Victoria and Qld are putting their Maplink and MapRun anytime activities on Eventor.

This will encourage some people to travel to where the "event" isn't. I'm with Richard. Really disappointed in the lack of responsibility from OA and ONSW, I know its just probably just a few die-hards dragging the chain, but its somebody else who may die hard.

I did think that the DIY event was OK (even having processed what went down in Italy), but looking at the UK going down the tubes bought it home that we should be in lock down right now.

(interesting Q&A from a critical care doctor in the uk - the scariest bit is where a UK surgeon says that they have been cross-training to help but he is obviously shit scared that they won't be competent enough. The theme of not having enough PPEs is common to the health service in Australia. )

I don't often agree with Scomo (Australian Prime Minister in relation to panic buying in the shops), but as he said a few days ago "Just stop it"

Surely as orienteers we can see that we can do our little bit to help slow the spread.

It may seem that it will not make a difference, but it is the same argument that as Australia is "just" 1.3% of global carbon emissions then there is little point in Australia taking a leading position on limiting that other existential problem of today!

Have to laugh at the celebrity chef on the Coles ads (Curtis Stone) thanking Aussies for being considerate and not running the shops out of items like toilet paper. Well there was definitely none there when I went this morning, or pasta, rice, Milo :-(, paper towels, the good mince (got the pork variety though), etc.

I got pinged for having more than two tins of veggies, two of which were tomatoes, one of champignons and one of red kidney beans. Didn't realise any of those were vegetables and aside from the two tomatoes, it's not like any of them were the same (the woman let me buy them on two transactions).

undy I don't know about ONSW, but all that VOA and (hopefully) OWA are doing at the moment is encouraging 'going for a run around the streets'. That was a quote from Richard yesterday, but now he seems to think we should all stay in our homes.

I'll remind you of the UK experts linked in my second post to this thread and their view of the importance of outdoor exercise. Interesting that BoJo has specifically allowed this in his latest crackdown, but I don't trust Scomo to do the same as he's a spectator slob with a beer gut.

Spectator or spectacular?

I’m digging Scomo and BoJo as shortenings. Doesn’t work as well for the North American heads.

DJT shall not be dignified by having even part of his name spoken.

Well Ontario as DoFo.

aka trump-lite

He recently told Ontarians to travel and have fun

https://globalnews.ca/video/6668414/coronavirus-ou...

FFS are these people are leaders!

@LOST richard said "just go for a run around YOUR streets."

NO unnecessary travel. Stay local. Stay at home.

Because most of us must stay at home for a while, I created a Facebook group for sharing theoretical and virtual orienteering exercises that can be done at home. It would be nice if many would share their creative ideas.

My sisters who are all long term FB advocates have found themselves disconnecting from it due to an absurd number of stupid people on there during this crisis so social media is about as popular as social distancing for them at the moment.

@simmo - what fizzyred said

@Cristina - Scomo is passe, the new kids are using Scovid, but Smoko is still popular (as a nickname, not the politician)

definitely - what fizzyred said!

Most of the above are why AP is not my source for what to do. I know some of you are making light hearted comments but thank you to Richard and Fizzy Red for a couple of more serious posts.

One simple message

“stay local and stay at home”

Though I'm no expert, I think the big problem is not necessarily people going out(side), it's people going out and gathering in public spaces, e.g. the Bondi Beach incident - for those unfamiliar even after the government advice, thousands flocked to the beach and it ultimately had to be closed to prevent people going there. People aren't always the brightest.

Shopping's always going to be a problem. You can't avoid groceries and you also can't avoid other people/touching shopping trolleys/food that others have put back while you're out there.

You'll may also notice the WA govt has had the bright idea of limiting daily alcohol purchases to some amount that I would most certainly consider unhealthy drinking on any given day (one carton of beer, cider or RTDs/three bottles of wine/a litre of spirits/a litre of fortified wine - or any combination of two of those). Anyone drinking any of those on any given day would in my opinion be blind drunk for the day and all it's really doing (for those who do happen to be alcoholics) is to encourage people to go to the bottle shop more often.

Sorry Richard, but your message is not simple, it's just as mixed as some of Scomo's. Surely you mean 'stay home most of the time, and if you do go out, stay local'.

Then, how do you define 'local'?

@tRicky and WA limit on alcohol: Hmm, I actually agree with tRicky - limiting daily alcohol sales sounds stupid to me. Seems to me, that just means that the people who drink a lot will be making multiple trips to the store on multiple days, perhaps driving there when less than sober. Its not likely to reduce the amount of alcohol they consume, just how often they have to go out in public, perhaps with the additional threat of doing so while intoxicated.

Is the limit intended to prevent hoarding and shortages?

Around here, the use of shopping trolleys is discouraged (in favour of baskets brought along); but if you do use them, the handles must be cleaned after each customer.

Oh no, however would the country survive with an alcohol shortage! Well this is Australia so it would probably implode.

Maybe people are trying to use liquor as a disinfectant. There were recipes floating around a week or two ago about mixing aloe vera gel with vodka to use as hand sanitizer.

WA probably did it because they're used to liquor stores in Karratha and Port Hedland being stripped bare as soon as a cyclone warning is declared.

Silly me - I didn't know that alcohol was a staple. Surely there are some things - if it runs out... it runs out.

And then you drink the hand gel...(I'm not kidding; we have known hospitalised alcoholics to do this.)

"In my day'... it was just the meths...

Further to my post of a couple of weeks ago linking this humourous tweet it is probably true that there'e a higher risk of catching Covid-19 from an infected runner or cyclist. Turns out that if you're breathing faster, there's a bigger volume of virus droplets, and more likelihood of aerosollising them.

So if there'e the slightest chance that you might be infected, don't go running or cycling. If you're Zwifting, disinfect the room afterwards and don't let anyone else go in there.

Just as well that gyms are closed, and the Olympics postponed.

And everyone else should stay well away from any other runners or cyclists they come across - especially if you're a car driver :d.

If there's the slightest chance that I'm infected, it won't matter, because the places where I run are places where nobody else goes.

where we're going we need no roads

this is heavy

Could you have lived with people for three weeks without spreading it, sharing kitchen, bathroom, couch...and then finally nail them by Zwifting? I would have lost a bet on that one.

@simmo
this virus is fairly large and heavy, much heavier than any of the molecules of atmospheric gases. It stays in the air in aerosol form, let's say, after a cough for very short time and it drops down to underlying surface. So distancing from other runners shell work fine. It is tougher with cyclists: speed is high and air turbulence on high speed could help to keep it in the air longer.
I have seen runners in masks, not that many though, in last couple of days.

Here in Finland it seems that everybody is going outside(especially to the national parks) on a walk/hike/run. It's so crowded that you can barely keep enough distance between when running past people. But, once you step a few meters of the trails its empty, peaceful spring forest at its best!

@DarthBalter

I think it can stay in the air for longer than what you've said.

From the Harvard Health site:

A study done by National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases' Laboratory of Virology in the Division of Intramural Research in Hamilton, Montana helps to answer this question. The researchers used a nebulizer to blow coronaviruses into the air. They found that infectious viruses could remain in the air for up to three hours. The results of the study were published in the New England Journal of Medicine on March 17, 2020.

That's in a lab, of course. In a significantly different environment, say, outdoors with a crosswind, the parcel of air that you pass through is completely different from the parcel of air that the person ahead of you passed through.

How do you think O-Ringen organisers are going to disguise a gathering of 9000 people. Sweden has a limit of 50, but seems to be quite relaxed overall.

From beloved NYT: "Dr. Marr said based on physics, an aerosol released at a height of about six feet would fall to the ground after 34 minutes. The findings should not cause the general public to panic, however, because the virus disperses quickly in the air".

More over, pseudo scientists like to publish studies done far from reality, a true scientist would have to work with infected humans, have them exhale, cough and sneeze, and measure, compare results, publish graphs. If 0.01 % of virus can be found in the air after 30 minutes when 99.99 hits the ground, that would be a scientific statement.
More over did anybody even studied the physical density of the this virus, how it behaves submerged in water or surrounded by it, like in aerosol?

Also outdoors, were we have significant amount of UV-A. UV-B and small amounts UV-C, especially on a sunny day, how long does that thing is infections in all different forms.

And than you inform the public, and make decisions on accepted public behavior.

Critical thinking is no longer the reality of modern education system, with rare exception of technical schools disciplines, that can not develop without such. It is a heard thinking consensus, if majority of pear "scientists" think it is right it must be right. It is "impolite" to ask critical questions.

I am watching very carefully the nation of Belarus that did not shut down economical activities so far, has 9.5 million population, and bordering European Union, that got hit hard.
It is a asocial experiment that only a dictator could afford. They could be on a later part of infection spread curve. Time will show.

BTW, orienteering teaches critical thinking, in my opinion. When you are on the course, most of the time you make decisions by yourself, right and wrong, learn from it constantly and adapt. Ability to adapt quickly to unknown terrain, mapping style is very noticeable among elite orienteers, since we get to watch them more than the rest of us.

I'm pretty sure most experts agree that the UV levels from the sun are not nearly high enough to have a significant on the virus.

But it sounds like you're already quite confident.

How is that O-Ringing is still on?

Still plenty of time to cancel it. Nobody gets infected if it hasn't happened yet.

Sweden is different

http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-why-the-nor...

Leave it to the people seems inconsistent with their tough line on full body cover.

On NPR this morning, Dr Harvey Feinberg, almost like he was overhearing Greg (DB) and Greg's discussion about droplets and aerosols.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/06/827954898/is-covid-...

That's reassuring to hear.

NPR? Seriously? That communist nest should have been defunded years ago

There you go. "If you can't attack the message attack the messenger."

Funded primarily by the listeners, at pledge drive time. You can't get much more communist than that, I suppose.

Watch out for the slipstream?

Yeah, normally I'm always grateful for a wheel to hang on to, but lately I've been hanging back instead. And if an unwanted passenger gets on my wheel, a couple of coughs usually discourages them.

Elsewhere I'm reading that the true hazard is singing...

I have never heard simmo sing and I am not sure I want to, (anymore than you would want to hear me sing)

Good to see Ecmo doing his bit.

One thing we've seen rather too much of in the last few weeks is reports which make no distinction between high risks (which seem to mostly involve crowded indoor spaces) and negligible-but-not-absolutely-zero risks. This seems another example of the genre.

It also strikes me as the kind of work where they started out with a conclusion in mind, and did some simulations to support that conclusion. It may get completely shredded when it goes through peer review. We'll see.

If you have Facebook, you can read what one physician said about this simulation. Bottom line: She isn't as concerned.
https://www.facebook.com/jenniferkastenmd/posts/12...

Oh, DarthBalter and critical thinking! I think this is the highest form of Baltering!

Seriously, my club is planning for a "socially distanced" event while we are not hard quarantined yet:
- Controls are set with control codes visible, no need to touch.
- Maps and instructions are pre-printed and put out for pick up at the start location, use gloves to pick and insert into your own map bag. discard after the run.
- Self-timing and result self reporting via email is encouraged.
- Event is spread across two weekend days so no chance of gathering.
- Virtual meeting is set to discuss and share after the event.

Of course, similar is possible only in parts of country that uses "social distancing". Quarantine similar to China's would make it impossible.

In Florida where I am they have just passed a big milestone. Now just more than 1/10th of 1% of the population is or has been a confirmed case of COVID-19.
Your state's numbers are probably similar.
We should be careful and follow mask and social distancing advice but we don't have to be bat-shit crazy about people avoidance. (OOPS bat-shit is probably not a good descriptive in this case).

Why the need to discard the map after the run?

gordhun, anyway the chance of dying of covid in FL is negligibly small compared to being strangled and swallowed by a giant python

I wouldn't be concerned about a python, I just googled it and I just have to stay away from computer programming.

What part of "There's not a snake in the world that's interested in eating you" was unclear?

Yet another AP thread has gone to the snakes...

And cmpblla wasn't even the instigator!

For either one!

I believe we have a two time offender in the case of snake derailing.