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Discussion: Favorite terrain?

in: Orienteering; General

Apr 23, 2020 2:48 PM # 
What terrain are you most looking forward to competing or training in once this thing is over? Personally I'm looking forward to orienteering in the mountains in the Alps and Dolomites in 2021.
Apr 23, 2020 3:31 PM # 
Terje Mathisen:
As always: Kongsberg-Eiker, i.e. the WOC 1978 areas. :-)
I had planned to run all the spectator races for the sprint WOC in Denmark this summer, but I guess not. :-(
Apr 23, 2020 7:12 PM # 
+1 Terje but I'll never get there so I'd settle for Canada's Thousand Islands National Park if we can get permission to be there for orienteering.
Apr 23, 2020 8:06 PM # 
Apr 23, 2020 10:08 PM # 
Dolomites, but maybe for more than just the orienteering....and Lunsen always....and always enjoyed Lake George, Round Mt. Pelican Bay...
Apr 24, 2020 12:28 AM # 
Manitoba sandhills, Hopewell Rocks, Laramie and similar terrain.
Apr 24, 2020 12:58 AM # 
@ Terje - are any events ( like 2-3 days) scheduled near Kongsberg next 2-3 yrs that you know of ? i would like/would be nice to re-visit areas that i spent almost a month in spring of '91
Apr 24, 2020 5:01 AM # 
Anywhere outside the neighborhood would be nice.
Apr 24, 2020 9:43 AM # 
Amazing. When I saw the title of this thread I immediately thought « Kongsberg ». Perfect combination of woods, contours, marshes and rock.
Apr 24, 2020 8:00 PM # 
Terje Mathisen:
@Nick & O-ing: This is _very_ easy!

Kongsberg hosts a 3-day event _every_ year over the long (Sat/Sun/Mon) Whitsun weekend. Over the last 15+ years I have usually done at least two of the races, I _think_ I'm still averaging around 50% wins in my age class. I know I'm almost always on the podium in Kongsberg/Eiker races, i.e. last year my brother Knut who had just advanced into H60 won and I took second place. :-)

Anyway Nick, please send me a note if you decide to visit!
Apr 24, 2020 8:13 PM # 
Terje Mathisen> ... Kongsberg-Eiker, i.e. the WOC 1978 areas ...

gordhun> +1 Terje but I'll never get there ...

Gordhun, perhaps you meant, never get there again, since you* were there.

*WOC '78 pp. 18-25; note gordhun picture p. 20 and hirsuteness comments p. 15 and 25
Apr 24, 2020 9:14 PM # 
Steve: you really should clear out your files. That stuff is way too old to have hanging around. But yes WOC '78 was a very fun trip with the pre-WOC camp in Drammen and the WOC itself.
It's an untold story -until today- but the Canadian team at WOC 78 had an advanced scoop as to where one of the events would be held, in those days usually a closely guarded secret. Jan Hansen, an orienteer in Montreal, happened to be home in Norway during the summer. He happened to live in or near Kongsberg. So he picked up an old map he had there and went for a run. Who should he meet but one of Norway's top mappers walking with board and map in hand. I think it was Svein Bakken. Jan put two and two together, brought us copies of the map to study and that turned out to be the individual event map. Didn't help. We did much better in the Men's Relay.
Apr 24, 2020 10:22 PM # 
That's the nice thing about this digital age: that stuff isn't in Steve's files, it's preserved forever on the internet.
Apr 24, 2020 11:38 PM # 
Woodland Park (CO) and Laramie. Maybe later this year...?

NAOC / Tahoe in 2021.
Apr 25, 2020 12:04 AM # 
I'm with FrankTheTank on this, but Gumble will be great.
Apr 25, 2020 12:26 AM # 
Seconded - one of my favourite Australian areas, as I've been telling anyone who will listen. The Flinders Ranges areas are among my favourites too.

Given the proportion of North Americans on this site, I'm surprised Harriman hasn't got a mention yet - Surebridge Mountain would certainly be in my personal top ten. And at the more obscure end, I'll also put in a nomination for the areas in northeast Kazakhstan used for APOC 2004, full of rock in sparse pine forest - I imagine the American Rockies have areas like this too, although I haven't ever orienteered in Colorado or Wyoming.
Apr 25, 2020 3:11 AM # 
Apr 25, 2020 12:57 PM # 
Given the state of the airline industry in Australia, and state border restrictions, I will be happy for any local orienteering map rather than my backyard.
Apr 25, 2020 1:48 PM # 
Okay, I'll give a shout-out to Harriman! (Though not all parts are equally nice.) Probably in my top-10, at least.
Apr 25, 2020 8:05 PM # 
Terje Mathisen:
@gordhun: That's a really funny story from WOC'78!

Svein Bakken could very well have been one of the mappers, he was one of the best in the area. My favorite tale from that WOC however is related to how Kasper Fosser, the grandson of Per Fosser who is still a member of the Norwegian Mapping Commission, ran the WOC Long last year, as a junior:

There have been exactly 3 instances of a Norwegian junior selected to run WOC Long, the first was Jan Fjærestad in 1974 Denmark, the second Tore Sagvolden in 1979 Finland before Kasper last year. They have a perfect record in that all three of them got a medal in their race!
Apr 26, 2020 1:10 AM # 
Wasn't there also a Norsk Junior course setter (Individual?), perhaps also mapper for WOC '78, MB?
Apr 26, 2020 2:06 PM # 
Who went on to become WOC champion in '83. Birthdate was August 1958, so 19 or 20 when he set the '78 courses.

Where is he now? Does he still compete?
Apr 26, 2020 3:01 PM # 
Wow Morten Berglia set the WOC'78 courses?! I didn't know that. Don't forget three WOC relay golds as well.
Apr 26, 2020 8:22 PM # 
Terje Mathisen:
This is really great!

When I wrote my previous message I never had time to finish it: All three junior runners was supposed to be the setup for "the one that got away", i.e. Morten Berglia who ran amazingly well during the spring of '78, i.e. just like Kasper last year, and people started to ask him why he didn't try out for the senior team?

Remember, his father was the boss of that WOC and everything was extremely secret, including the fact that Knut Berglia had given the course setter job to his son, so Morten just had to tell people that "no, I think this is too early, the next WOC will be better for me".

Morten is still running but he gained some weight when he retired from the WOC teams so these days I'm normally faster.
Apr 26, 2020 10:41 PM # 
Terje, I noticed the non sequitur in your post, that the Fosser-Fosser story didn't really connect to WOC 78, except for the missing Berglia -Berglia part I was expecting.

I am rather sure that Svein B and/or Helgesen brothers did the base maps for that WOC, but I am doubtful that Svein and Co actually did any fieldwork, based on his/their telling of WOC 78 stories to me in '80 and '81.

My memory may be imperfect with the facts, but I am more certain about the "tone" of the stories, which included many interesting issues.

I never got to the Relay area, but as with others above, my runs (both courses with wooden control remnants still in place) around the Individual (Long) area remain among my most thrilling experiences.
Apr 26, 2020 10:47 PM # 
I competed in the spectator race in 1978 - the day after the individual race (I think). Didn´t have a particularly good race but remember that the terrain and map were amazing.
Apr 26, 2020 10:53 PM # 
Everyone is talking about this 78 event... Anyone have any maps and/or terrain photos?
Apr 26, 2020 11:12 PM # 
I ran in the spectator race as well (H12). The troll artwork for VM78 was also excellent. Living in Bergen it was fun to see Jan Fjaerstad start the pre WOC trail and road relay to Kongsberg.

Double gold for Norway in the individual with Egil Johansen and Anne Berit Eid.

Apr 27, 2020 1:17 AM # 
Note 2.5m contours (cut off above scale text)
Apr 27, 2020 5:48 AM # 
Terje Mathisen:
@EricW: Thanks for the notes above, and the 2.5m reminder:

I know that the international controller stated that the terrain was so intricate that 2.5m was required to show sufficient detail, so when the new base maps (Helgesen naturally!) were constructed, they contained a lot more detail than normal for Norway.

I loved those contours for many years, even after they started to remap the terrains from scratch, i.e. the first time we had a Veteran's national championship on the relay terrain (Gammelgrendsåsen just outside Kongsberg) was also the first time with 5m contours, and I lost about 1:25 on one control, enough to drop out of the medals.

Checking back on the old map it was obvious why: The tiny reentrant was misdrawn on the new map while the old one showed clearly that it was located a small step above the surrounding details.
Apr 27, 2020 8:05 AM # 
Checking back on the old map it was obvious why: The tiny reentrant was misdrawn on the new map while the old one showed clearly that it was located a small step above the surrounding details.

That's the trouble with these modern mappers - over generalisation!

Were there any complaints about 'overmapping' at WM78?

I think that was also only the second time 1:15000 was used at WOC.

In 1976 in Scotland the classic (long) was 1:20 000 but the relay (in coastal sand dunes) was 15000 with 2.5m contours. In 1979 in Finland all the maps were 20000, After that 15000 became standard. I think the first 10000 map used for WOC was in 93 in NY - short and relay??.
Apr 27, 2020 10:38 AM # 
Only the Short (Qualifier and Final) was 1:10000 in 1993, the Relay and Classic were 1:15000. This was only the second time there was a Short, the first having been in Czechoslovakia in 1991. We still use the Short maps (Jackie Jones and Pole Brook) at that scale, and we use the Relay and Classic maps (Rockhouse and Surebridge) with no changes other than a few trail and vegetation updates, but now usually printed at 1:10000 as well.

Printing the Short maps at 1:10000 took no small amount of negotiation with the IOF controllers, as I think EricW and o-maps will attest.

There were some who were of the opinion that the WOC93 maps were rather overmapped. Note that WOC93 was also the first time that the WOC maps were made with computer drafting, as well as the first time the control descriptions were computer generated (using what was in retrospect an unbelievably arcane method).
Apr 27, 2020 1:22 PM # 
On WOC 78, I was about to comment on my most memorable terrain section of the the Start to 1st control.
I was also about to ask what ever happened to Individual terrain (Hinsjo/Gorud?), and why it hasn't been used like the Relay terrain

Well a little lockdown time & Googlemapping addressed both questions.
The terrain of the first two+ legs is now a full sized town named Ormasen ("Snakehill"!?), complete with a REMA 1000 (major store). (sorry no Norsk letters on my keyboard).
Also I see some significant new roads(?) in the area of men's 12-13-14/women's 6-7-8

I was also reminded that I remarkably duplicated Egil J's errors on 8 and on 16( loop plus fishhook), besides adding more of my own.

Still, it's been nice to have those memories rekindled.
The WOC 93 memories, while satisfying, aren't as pleasant.
Apr 27, 2020 7:15 PM # 
Norwegian terrain is of limited use for international events.
It is way too rugged and chaotic, and its mapping involves the level of generalization which is impossible to grasp for outsiders without growing up and/or spending a lot of time practicing on this particular type of terrain, which is naturally impossible for someone arriving at a major international event and having maybe just a model event or two.

I am glad the WOC in 1976 in Scotland was already mentioned here. This IMO is a way stronger candidate for the type of terrain perfect for orienteering, from aesthetical point of view in particular
Apr 28, 2020 12:14 AM # 
what a load of BS.

1. Norway is a big country with a lot of different terrains - just compare WOC 78, 97, 2010 and 2019 for starters.

2. If by 'Norwegain terrain' you mean rocky glaciated terrain then what about Sweden, Finland, parts of Russia, parts of US, parts of Canada, etc

3. one of the greatest attractions of orienteering is the endless variety of terrain and the varying challenges that poses.

4 which is naturally impossible for someone arriving at a major international event and having maybe just a model event or two.
That is pretty much true for most terrains. A much more dramatic example of that would have been WOC 2011 in France.
Apr 28, 2020 12:36 AM # 
Rob... (*facepalm*)...
Apr 28, 2020 1:28 AM # 
Is cabin fever taking over?

I forgot to mention, running there is likely to give you asthma and who knows what (see the other recent AP thread)
Apr 28, 2020 2:18 AM # 
you mean hepatitis?
Apr 28, 2020 6:38 AM # 
Greatest danger when training in Norway is ending up spending most of the time in consuming that tasty kneippbrød and kirsebær yoghurt and gaining weight instead of navigation skills. What seems to make things easier though is map consistency - if I remember right all maps were based on basemaps by Bakken & Helgesen and field survey of every map is made by a same guy, Mr. Målestokk.
Apr 28, 2020 7:10 AM # 
Mr. Målestokk reminds me of my first trip to Finland where I kept wondering where this place Keskusta was which I kept seeing on signs but couldn't find on any maps.
Apr 28, 2020 10:58 AM # 
Maybe like the guy in the bible you had scales in your eyes Blair.
Apr 28, 2020 11:13 AM # 
I'm stealing somebody else's story, but PG has related how in Finland he was pretty pleased with a restarant chain called Ravintola.
Apr 28, 2020 11:33 AM # 
Keskusta and Ravintola... Oh boy this is fun to read :D
Apr 28, 2020 2:18 PM # 
Trying to leave a German city, we were pleased to finally find the road we came in on. EinbahnStrasse.
Apr 30, 2020 8:01 AM # 
Terje Mathisen:
@ErikW: All the WOC'78 terrains have suffered significantly from developments in the years since but I have run multiple events on both the individual and relay areas, including one event where we retraced parts of the end of the individual race, we even had the final control in the same spot, but with a very short run-in. I had a very nice fight with Harald Thon on this race, we had pretty much identical speed but he was considerate enough to allow me to win this individual event. (notice all the clear cut areas! :-()

Harald unfortunately passed away (cancer) this winter, so the last time I competed against him was in the MWOC in Denmark in 2018 where he was the best Norwegian finisher in M60A.
Apr 30, 2020 9:58 AM # 
Where is Oivin?
Apr 30, 2020 1:26 PM # 
Terje Mathisen:
Øyvin and Brit are still very fit, but only compete very rarely. Typically, when Øyvin turns up for some event, he'll be at or very near the top. As google explain it, they both climbed a 8200m peak (Cho Oyu) in 2005. When I met them for Harald's funeral this winter, it was the first time I had seen him in a few years but I assume he was there for one or more of the WOC days last summer.

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