in: Orienteering; Training & Technique;
| # Posted 2008-02-16 00:28:03 | |
| danf: | Many people suggest studying a map and designing potential courses on it as a good way to prepare for an important upcoming meet. What if you took the map and imported it into Catching Features and virtually ran on it? Would this be ethically murkier waters? Would it be more beneficial than simple map study? Too much work to be practical? Thoughts? |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 01:41:42 | |
| biddy: | ive often wondered that myself that it is some form of ..cheating. especially when you are running on a map for un upcomming meet. But i guess if the organisers really wanted their maps to be a secret then they wouldnt publish them anywhere. This was like Jwoc last year with the Sappa Bulga map. Those maps were kept in secret until the day, however they did release kahli's rocks onto cathcing features for map study.
but i actually believe you benifit more from plain old map reading then using cathcing features. You can acutally use your own imaginiation to visualise the course instead of a computer that can create a very false image. |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 01:44:51 | |
| bshields: | Well, it's already being done. I don't see anything unethical about it so long as the CF map is publicly available (as was the case for Merz). In fact, if the map has already been used, then making it available on CF would level the playing field for people who haven't had an opportunity to actually run there. |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 01:49:21 | |
| SuvalineLohh: | I cannot say about the ethical part, but I believe that it isn't really beneficial.
First of all, you can't make the terrain really look the same. I mean, you don't know how it is in real life, and if you do, what's the point of making it virtually? And let's not forget, CF isn't really anything like real orienteering. If I make the routechoices I would do in the real life, I lose. If I run straight forward looking at the compass and avoiding trees, I tend to be in the first part of the results. Also, I think that CF shouldn't be used for technique training, because sitting behind the computer can't be compared to running in the woods. And solving problems while running is completely different from what it is in relaxed situations. It is a great fun as a game, but nothing more. But I also think that you most definitely should make the map you have in mind and but it up for online running. |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 06:12:12 | |
| bshields: | If you haven't been there you can't make it look like real life, but someone else who has been there can. I wouldn't be surprised if organizers put out CF maps in addition to jpegs at some point in the future.
|
| # Posted 2008-02-16 06:33:11 | |
| ebuckley: | I've actually considered doing just that as a meet director. It is a lot of extra work if you're going to make a nice map, but even putting some care into a virtual model event on a square K would introduce the terrain in ways that web photos and map snippets simply can't. |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 06:52:55 | |
| MDeVoll: | This might be getting off the original question, but I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to create a virtual trail of where I've gone on real map, similar to the way that Catching Features shows you where you've been at the end of a run. Keep in mind that I've never used a GPS, so I don't even know if it's possible to use it this way, but what if I had a GPS that tracked my exact position, and then at the end of the race, upload my GPS information and overlay it on a map of where the race was held. (Sometimes in the middle of a race when I get disoriented, I wonder just where the heck I am and what it would look like from a blimp to see me running this way and that in relation to the control I'm looking for.) Now I know there's no GPS allowed in a race, and I've read enough to know that a GPS isn't even particularly helpful during a race, but wouldn't it be a great training tool to see exactly where I was? |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 07:11:56 | |
| Cristina: | Plenty of people have been orienteering with some kind of recording GPS (like a Forerunner) for exactly that purpose. You can upload your track and place over a map (like this) and see if what you did is what you thought you did. That's an O map on top of a Google Earth terrain image but it's boring because it's flat. More interesting in a place likethis.
Even better than a static courseline is a way to see how fast you were going at various places. RouteGadget offers a GPS upload option and QuickRoute will color your route based on speed. I haven't used either of those features, but there are a few people on AP who are a wee bit more knowledgeable than I... And yeah, a bit off of the original topic. To bring it back, I'm waiting for the day when we can upload our GPS route and replay it in a Catching Features-like 3d scene, with our competitors in a mass start virtual replay. Yeah. |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 07:16:52 | |
| _________: | I think the JWOC competitors who used the Catching Features version of Gumble and Kohli's Rocks would potentially have been mislead by the difference between the terrain where all the rocks are mapped (virtual) and terrain where only a small percent of the rock is mapped (real). |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 09:05:54 | |
| jingo6390: | Catching features is just another tool... not the real thing but it can help.. |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 23:04:11 | |
| cnoc: | The map of jwoc is only a picture. The sheer scale of the boulders was unreal. CF is just as much benfit as sample pictures and maps. Personally i prefer the paper in my hand out training.
Running with the map on random terrain is of more benfit than a computer. Just my opinion |
| # Posted 2008-02-16 23:31:15 | |
| Tapio: | I recently talked with Greg about the possibility of importing RouteGadget events into Catching Features for running animations in 3D. This is Greg's vision as well and he has already developed some utilities for importing RouteGadget events but it's not fully automated yet.
So, you would draw/upload (GPS) your route into RouteGadget and then import the event along with the map into Catching Features for animation. Better yet, have the GPS track uploaded live. |
| # Posted 2008-02-17 01:24:16 | |
| mindsweeper: | Ooohh, I'm going to play some Catching Features today, thanks for reminding me! |
| # Posted 2008-02-17 15:44:32 | |
| Oxoman: | If a map has been set up in CF it should mean that it has been used in competition and people have run on it.
Therefore those in the previous competition have an advantage over people who have not run on the map. CF MAY provide some benefit to those who have never used the map in competition as they can see a copy of the map. However CF is not providing information not already available. It may help people who have trouble visualising the 2D map, and that would be the extent of so-called "cheating". I don't think there is an issue unless a copy of a previously unused competition map was made available. |
| # Posted 2008-02-17 17:56:07 | |
| jingo6390: | Yes, I am new to orienteering, I believe the BIG advantage would not be running a course in CF, but rather running the course before (really, not virtually). I would think their is a big "home field" advantage in orienteering, much bigger than almost any other sport.
|
| # Posted 2008-02-17 23:54:33 | |
| danf: | I guess I didn't really mean "cheating" as much as I thought it might change the dynamics of the sport. In most definitions of orienteering, you'll see a phrase like "over unfamiliar terrain." The closer these virtual reality programs get to the real thing, the more familiar the terrain becomes... it becomes a somewhat different sport in my opinion. There's a reason we have terrain embargoes - this is a potential way of getting around that, especially as the technology improves.
That said, I played around with taking a jpg of a map and vectorizing it - the first step of converting it via ocad into catching features. I tried a few programs, and found that this conversion is not trivial. It seems that the easiest way might be just to take a digital pen and trace the map out by hand. So it seems that unless clubs start releasing the ocad versions of their maps to the general public (or making Catching Features versions of them themselves), this is not a practical approach. Finally, I'm not sure I agree with most of the comments above about it not being that useful, but this could just be because I'm not a very good orienteer. It seems that drawing courses on a regular o-map would be much more effective for thinking through route choice decisions. I've heard stories where competitors are able to come up with courses very similar to those they face on race day and thus are able to simplify the decision process drastically. I think Catching Features could help with another aspect - visualization - in much the same way. Practicing on Catching Features should help with nailing down the shape of the land and relative sizes and distances. You could add more realism by using several variants with different amounts of unmapped rock or terrain "roughness" (how far the map contours deviate from the terrain), to get around some of the problems mentioned above. I guess I think it would help people orienteer further into the future, as Tero might put it. I guess the main question is just how much it would really help. It would be an interesting experiment to try. |
| # Posted 2008-02-18 06:51:07 | |
| ebuckley: | Well, speaking of Tero, read some of his comments regading preparation for international events and you'll realize that there is no longer any such thing as "unfamiliar terrain" at the elite level. The top competitors will find a way to prepare, with or without CF. |
You must be logged in to add a message
