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Discussion: Apparently

in: graeme; graeme > 2024-05-15

May 16, 2024 7:05 PM # 
BrandNewMe:
Ray was there when Oleg and Evgueni were walking through the park. ‘Oh, there’s a control’ said Evgueni. Yes, it was on your course. You went to it twice, said Oleg. Evgueni said he didn’t think he did that one. Hmm. Almost as dodgy as years ago when I beat Ray in N Berwick by 4 secs on a course when I touched a control from the wrong side of an impassible fence. Not allowed apparently. Who knew?
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May 17, 2024 9:55 PM # 
graeme:
I knew. And I was wrong!

I couldnt find the rule about runnng off the map after Lucy's sprintelope. Mainly for devilment, I asked BOF, and..
____________________________________________________________
On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 16:55, wrote:
There is no IOF FootO rule to say that it is not allowed to run off the map.

There are two main reasons:

It is not uncommon for competitors to accidentally run off the edge of the map, losing time by doing so (although rarely at elite level). There is no need to disqualify them.
We don’t want to have a rule which planners might then rely on. In the same way we don’t have an IOF rule which says you can’t punch across an uncrossable feature. It is up to planners to set the course so that it is not possible to gain an advantage by running off the map.
May 17, 2024 10:20 PM # 
ȷames:
"In the same way we don’t have an IOF rule which says you can’t punch across an uncrossable feature." Really?!
May 17, 2024 10:50 PM # 
BrandNewMe:
Ah well then, that absolves me completely. Not sure what Ray was moaning about.

Someone was disqualified for running off the map in the middle final in 2011. He was a decent orienteer, and the terrain was horrendously complicated. His problem was he ran off the map into the embargo for the relay the next day.
May 18, 2024 7:55 AM # 
jayh:
@graeme: who is "BOF" here?
re "In the same way we don’t have an IOF rule which says you can’t punch across an uncrossable feature."
Is this not covered by Rule 1.1. "Competitors must visit a number of control points marked on the ground in the shortest possible time aided only by map and compass." (if you're on the wrong side of the uncrossable fence you haven't visited the control point) and Rule 17.2 "Out-of-bounds or dangerous areas, forbidden routes, line features that must not be crossed, etc. must be marked on the map ... Competitors must not enter, follow or cross areas, routes or features drawn with the following symbols:"?
May 18, 2024 8:18 AM # 
blairtrewin:
As far as punching across (or crossing) 'uncrossable' features, there is no rule against crossing these in forest events. There is a rule against crossing them in sprint events (the rules don't explicitly say that punching across is 'crossing', but that's the standard interpretation).
May 18, 2024 8:48 PM # 
graeme:
@jayH. Quote is from David Rosen. I can't find anything in BO rules either. I'd always interpreted it like Blair says, but it *is* ambiguous and (IMO) David is a more reliable source than a rule I can't find.
May 19, 2024 11:45 AM # 
blairtrewin:
In the IOF rules it's 17.2 (can't speak for the BO ones).
May 22, 2024 1:09 PM # 
graeme:
I guess Davids reply ...

"It is up to planners to set the course so that..."

... relates to a question we asked at the IOF wrt WOC. Their confirmation is probably in the IOF minutes, I dont see why its secret and we planned to explain in detail in the bulletin.

Punching isn't the same as crossing, so putting a control on top of an uncrossable feature makes it clear you can punch from either side - but not cross.

Why would a planner do that? Well, its a form of "runners choice" forking where the runners can choose which side to go; a choice that affects two legs.
May 28, 2024 8:05 PM # 
Thompass:
I'm not seeing much clarity here, is there something from IOF that says one or the other anywhere? It seems like something you can be technical about and then you do it and get disqualified and called an idiot.
May 28, 2024 9:22 PM # 
BrandNewMe:
It is the sort of thing that ought to be clarified. Vital for future N Berwick sprintelopes and possibly other things besides.
May 29, 2024 4:28 PM # 
graeme:
Indeed, its clearly fastest to run off the map on 6-7 at this week's world cup.
https://www.tulospalvelu.fi/gps/20240525_WC_KOV_M/
Unless you get hit by a car.
May 31, 2024 6:00 AM # 
Terje Mathisen:
@graeme: At least here in Norway we have more of a "common sense" rule, where the organizers and/or jury are allowed to DSQ or accept any questionable behavior or rule break, with the key considerations being:

a) Did the competitor do this intentionally?
b) Did (s)he actually gain any time from doing so.

Many, many years ago, shortly after my father got this stipulation into the rule book, it was used to not DSQ a club mate of mine, who ended up on the D21E podium in the largest/most important spring event, even though they could not find her punch from the last control: There had been both a TV crew and lots of photographers there and the jury decided that she had indeed attempted to punch properly, but probably not broken through the plastic cover over the punching rectangle.

Anyway, using this guiding rule, it is easy to see that a competitor who accidentally runs off the map on a forest course and comes back in to finish will not be DSQ'ed, unless this either was done on purpose or resulted in a time gain (i.e. road/track just outside the boundary).

On a sprint course you need to return in the same spot where you left the map, so easily covering the 6-7 route you showed. This would be similar to accidentally running into an OOB area and turn around to leave the same way, which has been accepted for several WOC medalists.
May 31, 2024 6:24 AM # 
BrandNewMe:
This is what was needed in 2014 when there were clear pictures of Hollie Orr punching the last control in the WOC long, only for her to get disqualified for not punching. This is waaayyy too sensible for British orienteering surely, where no rational thinking it’s allowed. Like in 201(5 where similarly the si didn’t record a punch and despite the train of people I’d caught confirming was there they disqualified me and gave the win to one of the others in the train who was adamant I’d punched. Not that it still pisses me off!!
May 31, 2024 8:58 AM # 
graeme:
Yes, we have a rule about the spirit of fair play which also says it takes precedence over all other rules. So you can use it in these cases.

Sorry I wasn't on the jury for 2015 Claire. Quite likely the box would have registered you punch, but the organisers aren't obliged to look at it. I got DQed at a a WRE in 2014 on a similar basis. A month or so later they did check the box and there was my punch... Not that I can hold a grudge longer than you....

But it's one thing to allow an accidental rule break which doesn't save time. Quite another to DQ someone for doing something the rules don't forbid.

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