in: Bash; Bash > 2005-12-05;
| # Posted 2005-12-06 19:48:41 | |
| jtorranc: | ... Gabon. I'll have to check whether I got it right.
Checking complete - well done gut. See if you can be a good influence on my throat. |
| # Posted 2005-12-06 19:56:10 | |
| Bash: | Nicely done! The Jeopardy contestants didn't get that one, even though they were given the hint of "Africa".
I hate to tell you this, but this is my 18th day of having a raspy voice (or no voice at all). But here's hoping you get well sooner! :-) |
| # Posted 2005-12-06 20:47:55 | |
| jtorranc: | I seem to have graduated from hardly any voice yesterday to a frog in my throat today, which I suppose represents adequate progress.
BTW, the running form analysis session sounded cool. Perhaps a pity the training camp in January doesn't have any of that explicitly on the program. I suppose we'd have to have someone with expertise specific to running in terrain - plenty of people that fit that bill will be there but whether they'd be up to doing that sort of video analysis, I don't know. Incidentally, I tried out for Jeopardy once. I made the grade in their testing but the call to actually appear on the show in the ensuing year didn't materialise. For anyone else who want to try, reviewing the periodic table at least to the extent of being up on the two letter abbreviations for all the elements is strongly recommended. |
| # Posted 2005-12-06 21:57:30 | |
| Bash: | I was wondering what differences in technique there would be for running in the terrain. I'm sure a lot of the principles are transferrable, but there must be some adjustments. Since Dr. Taylor has 30 years of experience, it is possible that he has some cross-country running expertise, but just didn't talk about it since the room was full of triathletes and marathoners. Did you ever see the Saturday Night Live sketch with "Jimmy Carter" taking questions on the phone-in, and he had all the answers? This guy reminded us of that character!
I've been thinking that it would be fun to bring him here sometime for a session aimed specifically at adventure racers, orienteers and trail runners. |
| # Posted 2005-12-06 23:38:13 | |
| hammer: | I suspect that cross country running and track and road are very similar while terrain running is very different. Specificity is very important and leg lift is quite different. If you look at Holger's web site he mentions that while he is training a lot more the last 5 years since he last ran a 3K that his track 3K time is likely worse - but his terrain speed is likely much much faster.
FYI, Ted would like Holger to give us a lesson on how to run downhill fast in the terrain at the camp in January. I will see if we can get video to tape that. |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 00:12:55 | |
| Bash: | Downhill running lessons would be cool.
In my case, I don't imagine the advice would be much different, regardless of where I'm running. I can't imagine that my poor posture and left lurch are any more helpful in terrain than they are on the track! A lot of people's issues were related to core strength and flexibility (either not enough or too much), which would be transferrable. Other issues were things that required specific therapy or assistance (e.g. leg length discrepancies), and he recommended people to local practitioners whom he respects. A few issues were things that can't be helped, but runners often compensate for in their style - bow-leggedness, knock knees, missing ACL, etc. I think something like this, in combination with someone who understands the differences for terrain running, would be valuable some time. For example, in this weekend's session, Barrie Shepley was in the room and would occasionally interject to explain why triathletes might do something in a particular way, e.g. some of the Ironman competitors shuffle when they run because they never plan to run fast in a race. |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 00:37:02 | |
| MrPither: | This running clinic sounds absolutely fascinating to me. It would be interesting to hear the doc's take on terrain running and efficiency. Although, like most things in orienteering, the biggest gains are going to be from clean races. On the other hand, moving smothly through the forest is huge at the higher levels.
I'm curious Bash, you mentioned 'too much core strength' causing problems. Is that referring to core imbalances and bad posture?...or something else? |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 00:53:09 | |
| Bash: | The "not enough or too much" comment was intended to refer only to flexibility, although I realized once I posted it that it could be read as if it applied to core strength as well. There was a woman in the clinic who had done 17 Ironman races and from watching her, he felt that she had a flexibility issue, so he brought her up to the front of the room to do some tests. She shook her head, saying that she does an hour of flexibility work each night and teaches Pilates as well. As soon as he manipulated her legs, he said that she was TOO flexible, then he and Barrie talked about why you want just enough flexibility - but no more - because otherwise you need more strength to "take up" the flexibility before you can apply the remaining strength to your running. I've read an article by Ian Adamson (one of the world's best adventure racers with a Masters in exercise physiology) advising against any flexibility work for exactly that reason - and also to avoid injury. But Dr. Taylor and Barrie Shepley would vehemently disagree. They are both big advocates of Yoga.
I noticed that Dr. Taylor also used "core strength" as a euphemism for women who needed to lose weight. (The men he would tell outright.) That is, one can choose to increase one's strength (to support extra body weight) - or else one can reduce body weight and then less strength is required. Both he and Barrie talked about the oft-neglected importance of upper body strength in runners, although Barrie pointed out that sprinters need more upper body work than endurance runners who need to carry those heavy muscles for several hours (but they still need strong arms). So they did allude to "too much strength", but never too much core strength. |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 01:02:22 | |
| hammer: | And orienteers need more upper body work as well. Many people commented how sore their arms were from the Raid the Hammer.
> A lot of people's issues were related to core strength and flexibility (either not enough or too much), which would be transferrable. Very transferrable. >A few issues were things that can't be helped, but runners often compensate for in their style - bow-leggedness, The latter is me! >On the other hand, moving smothly through the forest is huge at the higher levels. And in wide open terrain like central europe and some areas in BC/Alberta. |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 01:18:33 | |
| Bash: | My arms were sore from Raid The Hammer because I used them to shield my face whenever I went hurtling through the air headfirst after tripping while running down a steep hill. Say Hammer, did I ever show you my elbow? ;-) |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 01:44:48 | |
| jtorranc: | I'm not sure orienteers in general need very much more upper body work, at least not for long events. I can't remember the last time my arms gave me trouble during or complained much after a race other than during Venture Quest this fall and that involved four or five miles of paddling, slightly more than two hours of quite technical mountain biking and dragging myself through a Tyrolean traverse. With all that, I was having a bit of trouble holding my forearms up in the last two or three miles of trekking/running but it was a five and a half hour race all told.
That said, we may need more than minimal upper body work for the contribution the arms make to speed in shorter events. But it's not something I'm going to invest a lot of training time in (at least not beyond doing various types of fast running training workouts) as long as my training time is limited by factors other than my body's ability to tolerate more stress. I think a running form clinic would be valuable for North American elites. Perhaps we can squeeze it in informally around the margins of the January camp, even if not to the extent of including video analysis. I certainly plan on asking Holger, Sandy, Ted and, on reflection, Hans about what sort of running form exercises they're familiar with, what "spanst" means precisely, what kind of explosive power/plyometric training orienteers are doing in Europe even if none of this is formally on the agenda. |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 01:52:09 | |
| Bash: | Upon request, Coach Sudden recently provided a great demonstration of various forms of spänst as we were standing in a snowy parking lot. So I'm sure he could be convinced to do the same when we're all together at the training camp! It would also be interesting to see what Holger, Sandy and Ted do. |
| # Posted 2005-12-07 02:53:47 | |
| hammer: | From the camp web site:
V. "How I train" (Holger Hott Johansen) - How Holger organizes his training, both in theory and practically day-to-day |
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