in: O Steve!; O Steve! > 2008-04-18;
| # Posted 2008-04-18 19:39:55 | |
| Jerritt: | If one was so inclined, he/she could look at routegadgets for events in common and look for the number of obvious mistakes, then make a comparison.
Justin Bakken would have to be included and I think when you add in USGS or AR navigation there are a couple more that need to be talked about. Those of us who set and vet are at a distinct advantage, but having had discussions with Ian and Pete (and I think Todd's brain works this way) they can accurately remember, talk about and navigate specific legs or specific features on given maps. I, on the other hand, remember just enough to get me into trouble. Having said that, I think their performances at A meets and other events bear out that they can transfer the skills to maps they don't know as well. Is Julia the best woman navigator or just the fastest? |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 21:25:39 | |
| O Steve!: | yes, Justin.. he is a top nav guy. But I think he is fast and I gotta still go with Ian on an O map and say it is Justin on USGS (the guy is fantastic with a lack of info from a USGS)...Justin will tell you he makes mistakes. (gotta love how humble he is) and he made a big one on route choice on Red sunday that caused him to finish behind pfc and Baird(route from 8 to 9 if memory serves?) I just think its rare that Ian makes oneon an O map. pfc doesnt make many either but he is also got good foot speed is faster than Ian do I give the nod to Ian. Ever hear these guys talk about taking routes to avoid climb?....I am thinking "Dude!...I go to the top of the hill to confirm my postion and keep me on track...damn the climb!"
so who is your ultimate pick?. hey, its all for fun and its just an opinion ( we all got one : ) ) but its fun to chat it up.. I know I have become more competent on navigation but also know that based on conversations I dont read terrain and relate it to the map like others can. I rely on my compass more just to keep me going in the right direction. I just dont "see" stuff like the best navigators do. Perhaps you consider yourself with me on that one...perhaps for other reasons...but I am with you on the thought that sometimes "knowing" can cause a nav mistake because you get sloppy or to confident and dont check something. But still I think the benefits outweight the consequences when being on a familiar map even for me. Agree that A meets give us the best info..so looking at that, who is your pick?....what about Kevin T from BOC...is he the best O navigator from MN/Wisc? |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 21:26:33 | |
| O Steve!: | and yeah, I will go with Julia...she is solid but we need more women runners on red.... |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 22:00:21 | |
| pfc: | I guess there's two main ways to answer the "best navigator" question - subjective and objective. So far we've had some subjective discussion, and that kind of "gut feel" can be valuable, say, in asking a question like "who do I want on the MNOC relay team?" - which may have a different answer than "who do I want as a rogaine partner?"
The other way is objective, by looking at actual results and crunching the numbers using some process or algorithm. In that case, the main confounding factor is speed. People have different overall foot speed, and different ratios of trail to terrain speed. Conditions can vary during the course of an event. To answer the question objectively, there needs to be a way of factoring out the speed issues, and then a way of measuring the desired "performance", whatever that is. Some of this can be done statistically, by averaging across multiple runners. For example, here's one reasonable-sounding way to measure consistency: 1. For each runner, divide each of their leg times vs. their finish time to get percentages. This is a first pass at factoring out overall speed. 2. For each leg, determine avg and stdev of the percentages across all runners. 3. For each runner, convert the percentage of the time spent on each leg to a proportional deviation from the average for that leg. 4. Runners with smaller deviation are more consistent navigators. Say that Ian's leg times range between -0.3 and 0.7 stdevs of the mean times, but my leg times range between -0.6 and 1.5 of the mean time (a larger spread.) Then we'd be justified in saying that Ian is a more consistent navigator than I am. Not only that, from the discussion here I'm seeing "navigation skill" can be broken into multiple aspects: - Consistency from event to event - Consistency between familiar/unfamiliar maps - Ability to make good route choices (e.g., proper assessment of climb) - Ability to tolerate inaccuracies (e.g. USGS) Each of these might be valuable in different scenarios and require different algorithms to measure with any sort of relevance. There's a strong caveat to going too far with this exercise, though. Fact is, when a number of people are closely matched, it's easy to devise a measurement system that makes any chosen one of them "better" than the others - simply because they're so similar. Even the USOF ranking algorithms can show large, unanticipated statistical fluctuations - especially when run on small sample sizes (that's why local rankings are so hard to do right.) I guess that's a long-winded way of saying we're back to gut feel. |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 22:10:44 | |
| toddp: | The real test of navigation skills is on map with no prior knowledge. On maps frequented by the MNOC we all have varying degrees of prior knowledge that will affect race results. The only way to asses how good we really are is to compete on unfamiliar terrain. MNOC is a club, we have meets, we have fun, but the results are always suspect, especially for the setters and mappers.
Good course setting might mitigate some of the advantage of prior knowledge through utilization of more obscure legs and inobvious control points. It might be nice to start keeping a library of course designs in a central location so that course setters can avoid using the same obvious CPs and similar legs over and over. Route gadget might be the place for that kind of a library I suppose. With all that said, it is still fun to conjecture about who is the best. PFC and Ian both made some small errors at Lake Maria but nailed almost every leg. Owen is always fast, but I have no idea how well he navigates. Does he make errors? As for Maria, I think Justin could have won. He ran around the lake and cabin to the west on leg 8~9, he claimed it was sort of an experiment. If he hadn't gone that way for "just to try it". I think he would have won. Too bad we can't see everyone's route! Perhaps the club could offer a series of RouteGadget user prize drawings to encourage participation. Could we get a series of $10 gift REI certificates and give away one to a randomly chosen RouteGadget user after every meet? |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 22:29:44 | |
| O Steve!: | Pfc....very cool discussion of methodology....very interesting.......I probably go back and reread it a few times to absorb it all but I like the efforts to try and insert a maximum amount of objectivity in an effort to answer the original question...
so...do you have an opinion on who it is?....and if you think you are it..dont be shy...Im sure others can take it : ) Todd...interesting idea.... Maria route gadget showed routes that I had not even thought of even days after the event....my ranking score at this event was just behind my Hyland Sprint....I was asking myself: do I consider my result/performance at Hyland slightly better than Maria....I guess I would say yes, and local knowledge of the course probably gave me a slight edge at that park.... |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 22:38:37 | |
| pfc: | I pretty much agree with the opinions so far:
Owen and Justin are fastest, I'm just behind, then Jerritt, then Ian. Ian and Owen are most consistent, Justin and I are fairly consistent, those who boom big know who they are :) Ian and I tend to make good (and similar) route choices. Justin is best on inaccurate maps, Ian is good, Owen and I are both somewhat vulnerable to it. Julia is both the fastest and best nav woman (usually by default, to her chagrin) Todd, I'd like to qualify your "no prior knowledge" statement. At the A-meets I've attended, there's an additional first step which could be called grokking the map. I've had times where I can't quite "get" the map until after the first few controls - due to different mapping styles. My route choice and nav are OK then, I just have to go slower and pay more attention. Once I "get" the map I can speed up. But generally, my navigation doesn't really improve, I'm just able to execute faster, and this usually carries over to Day 2. You could argue that's all part of navigation, but I thought I'd point it out because we've been separating the speed factor. Example: Batona Fall '06 vs. Colorado 5-day '07 weekend 1. In Batona, the vegetation, terrain, and mapping style were all new to me. Even if you don't count my day 1 boom, I was pretty slow and careful. In Colorado last year, the terrain was more familiar (after Laramie) and the map was made by Plamen - I know exactly how he maps things. I aced both days and ended up 6 of 17 in M21. I think the solution to this is more experience and more terrain variety (too bad it's so expensive to travel.) This shortcoming certainly affects me at my current experience level, perhaps more so than other regular posters on AP. |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 23:34:50 | |
| toddp: | Maps books of a written language to be read and understood. Despite all the efforts to standardize, each map may be written in a markedly different dialect. Part of orienteering navigation is understanding the local dialect. pfc, are you saying that competition is only fair after all are familiar with the local dialect? |
| # Posted 2008-04-18 23:39:12 | |
| iriharding: | Wow... lots of interesting discussion on this topic in such a short time and without any beers to help it along .
First, I have noticed that the competition at MNOC has really heated up over the last year or so. It is great to see folks improve so much (can you believe Pete was once a smoking non exercising type not that long ago ; then Stephen and Kari are really getting good and steady in their navigation). My own pace has picked up in the last year or so because (a) I don't have Lyme disease (b) general higher level of fitness due to AP logging/goal setting (c) refining of my O technique. My O brainpower is now concentrated ~90% on figuring the BEST route and only ~10% on staying in contact with the map. Obviously on totally new terrain , new map it is higher on staying in contact with the map for the first control or two , then drops to the 10% level later. I have run in a lot of new terrain in the last year and apart from the caution on control 1 and 2 , I find that it is my aerobic system that is hollding me back. Mapping terrain certainly helps get that staying in contact with the map much better. I noticed at adventure races that folks would stop at even simple trail junctions and look at the map. Multiply that by 100 junctions @ 30 seconds per time and that is 50 minutes. In sprints you can stop and look at the map for 5 seconds easily. I have worked hard at the sprints to make sure that I have almost no stop and consult map/ think time . That saves as much as 40 seconds on a 15 control sprint course. So all the sprint course we have had in MNOC have been great. In the last 2 - 3 years I have been lucky enough to get in several A meets/regional meets on totally new terrain and this really helps to improve the technique. With Routegadget and epunch splits I have also noticed that even though you think that the light green is really not slowing you down when you power through it , it does really slow you down by 10 to 15% or more. I have changed my route selection algorithm as a result. That's it for now.... back to work |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 00:26:04 | |
| toddp: | Ian, 90% "O brainpower" on picking the best route? Don't you just calculate the route quickly and then execute the plan? I would think that execution, staying on the planned route, would be the most work. Are you really devoting that much attention to route selection for the next leg?
Stoppages really do add up over the course. Focusing on constant movement has certainly made me faster. I have found that the commitment to constant movement is easy, the trick is to be planning well enough ahead of time so as to never be moving in the wrong direction. ;-) Why doesn't o-map skill translate directly into USGS map skill? Is it really that different? It would seem to require more abstract thinking. i.e. the ability to grok (there's that word again) trends in the terrain rather than spotting distinct features. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 00:38:28 | |
| toddp: | o-steve, When I set the 2~3 leg, I thought it was a good one. A choice between fighting through green or fighting up a hill and attacking from trails. A good course offers options for different styles, don't you think? And anyways, you are a mountain marathoner in training, right? I recommend that you make a beeline for every hill on every leg. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:01:58 | |
| pfc: | Todd - No, not really. I'd say that there's many other factors - e.g. experience with the specific terrain (even if only once prior) - that would produce as much or more "unfairness" than whether you're familiar with the mapper's style. There certainly is a good deal of standardization in O-maps these days.
I was pointing out that learning the map "dialect" is another factor that needs to be considered, which isn't always apparent at the local level. Some people are quicker at picking this up than others, and it can be an advantage that's not directly related to navigation (in the strictest sense.) Perhaps many experienced orienteers are beyond this stage. But I'm not yet. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:18:40 | |
| pfc: | Ian - I started exercising 7 years ago and quit smoking 12 years ago, so it's not that impressive :)
Sounds like we're saying basically the same thing; within the first couple controls on a new map, there's a higher concentration level to read the terrain. Then after the first few, the effort ratio shifts back to its normal level. About stopping: One of the skills I'm working to improve is planning subsequent legs while on the run - particularly during the "green" (stoplight) section of a leg. This has two effects: 1) minimizes stopping or slowing down at a control, 2) I always know which direction I'm taking out of a control (so no 180° errors.) This is particularly important for sprints, e.g. at Hyland. Of course, sometimes it's just not possible to do this because the present demands full concentration (and that's more important!) so occassionally you'll see me slow to a walk shortly after leaving a control, especially if going uphill - but not stop (I hope!) This is both an opportunity to catch up on planning, and to partially recover (I'll usually hyperventilate a little too.) About light green: The AP split analysis with mpk / leg is good at showing which ones are slow. Also the Splits graph on the MNOC website (when leg lengths are entered properly) - a smooth linear line means a consistent average mpk and it's easy to note deviations. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:19:52 | |
| pfc: | Oh, and I hope to see y'all with beers in hand tonight. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:25:21 | |
| pfc: | Todd - O vs. USGS: I would venture that, among other things, the scale difference is significant. On a 24K map, terrain features are encountered 2.5x slower than on a 10K map (probably more since the AR pace is usually lower, too.)
I wouldn't expect direct translation of all skills. There's still a lot of overlap; most generic navigation techniques directly translate, but there's still a lot of refinements specific to O-maps. Likewise, there's a different set of refinements for USGS. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:53:23 | |
| toddp: | Refinements on USGS maps? I would think they are entirely less refined than an o-map. What are the refinements specific to USGS? |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:55:00 | |
| O Steve!: | Ian, Its suprising to me to hear you say that 90% of time is figuring the best route...I usually glance, decide route, commit and then make sure I am where I think I am on the map the rest of the way....and then look to see how I can pick the quickest route through the trees...at lake Maria my HR avg was 152...if figure is I was full out I could average 164-1677 or so....but it seems I have gotten better by slowing down...but I may be able to speed it back up again...but that is the beauty isnt it?...go a bit to fast and..........boom!...
there is also the reality that my best route may not be pfc or Ians best route given my skill level...I thought my 8 to 9 was kind of a sucky route BUT in retrospect it might have been the best route for me....could I have executed pfc's route through all the white and been able to prevent getting lost? Todd, I have to admit that on 2-3 I was drawn to the open area that included the hill and could run confidently to it....totally missed the route skirting the green and going around the hill...my split analysis calculated a 2 minute error but about a minute of that was missing the swamp and running to far down the trail before retracing...my biggest error of the day by my calculation although I corrected quickly (dude, you are about to run to the road and it aint there!) (apparently, my inner voice is a surfer) |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 01:58:46 | |
| O Steve!: | pfc...how can you even look, much less plan another route when going through green...I am usually to busy figuring how to get through it to do much else.. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 02:17:42 | |
| pfc: | Refinements of navigation technique specific to USGS, I mean, not refinements to the map itself. Stuff like simplifying the terrain into larger features, aiming off, using altimeter, etc. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 02:26:20 | |
| iriharding: | seems like today is a very productive day on MNOC AP (hope everyone stays employed !) .
The route planning has the macro part that is pretty much planned several controls ahead if possible (especially when running the "green" legs (as in full speed ahead on trail or easy terrain - ref" stoplight orienteering) (not a reference to vegetation) . Once on the leg and seeing the terrain and vegetation I work on the micro route choice (+/- 50 m or so off the macro route) based upon hills/local veg etc . I now seem to be able to tell very quickly when I need to slow down because I am about to lose contact with the map. This is a key balancing of risk . Tom P was faster than me on most legs at L Maria but had 3 real big boomers . The risks he took did not pay off that day!. One big learning experience was at US Champs in 2001 (?) Day 1 with it raining on my glasses and forcing me to slow down (making me very cautious) compared with the Day 2 bright and sunny and overconfident me being like an unguided missile (overrunning control 3 by 1.5km and worse ) . Some days it's a big mind game ! later ............. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 02:31:35 | |
| pfc: | I read Ian as saying 90% of brainpower, not time. Certainly there's very little thinking capacity to spare when you're close to or at AT, so 90% may not be as big as it sounds.
I suppose you could model it as a pyramid of skills, where for any given person, the skills below a certain level have become ingrained and automatic, the skills at that level are actively being honed, and skills above that level are not yot attempted (of course, we're talking a multidimensional pyramid here.) Example: O Steve is focusing his attention on moving through terrain (light green) effectively, where I (and presumably Ian) do this with little perceived conscious effort. (I feel more goal-directed instead of process-directed, if that makes sense) In contrast, I still devote a fair amount of attention to executing my route, whereas Ian seems to have internalized that more. That's why I have a training category for "Terrain Run" - anytime I'm running in terrain and thinking about something else, which helps keep the mechanics of running in terrain subconscious. Sorry for the logorrhea... three cups of coffee and not much going on today. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 02:33:02 | |
| pfc: | Yeah, concurrent posts keep everyone busy. |
| # Posted 2008-04-19 03:31:21 | |
| O Steve!: | green as in "go fast, you know where you are and you can check out the map as you bust it and plan ahead" I was thinking green vegetation
these post are kind of a primer on advanced O tech...interesting thought processes Tom P will be though as he learns to limit/avoid nav mistakes...I managed to finish in front of him because I did not have a boom.... I was telling Kari any AR team could add him as a sub and I think he would do well...I could see him subbing on WEDALI or GH and I think he would do well...I like the fact that he comes out and does it and if he makes mistakes he still smiling....he is a good athlete... pfc..I think you are correct about the pyramid of skills....I need to think about what to get better at next...I guess lately I have been trying to read the terrain better as I move through it allowing me to take more direct routes...and that approach has allowed me better results...I do notice as I go through a course and I feel like I have avoided mistakes I tend to get more conservative late in the event to avoid "blowing" a solid result. If I can manage to get better I would consistently beat Jim Mullin and be snapping at Mike C heels or perhaps Julia B. I am not there yet...its something to work for...Julia is faster than me through the woods on pure leg speed...but not by alot....I might be able to pick it up a bit but then again that could lead to errors... |
| # Posted 2008-04-22 00:01:57 | |
| Jerritt: | The discussion is rambling a little bit, but is pretty interesting. A couple thoughts: First, take a look at the "Best coaching tip" discussion. The second comment--plan the leg backward seems to be widely accepted, but I can't ever remember hearing it before.
Second: I am not really sure who is the best navigator, but I think a number of us are improving enough that if any one person has a bad day, there is a group right behind who is ready to beat them. I am interested to see Todd running healthy and Tom P to become more consistent. |
| # Posted 2008-04-22 02:06:43 | |
| O Steve!: | Jerritt, I read that thread this mornin thinking this is good stuff and I agree with you...plan your leg backwards...I never heard that before either.... |
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