Discussion: 2004 NAOL, NA Intercity Challenge ??
in: Orienteering; General
Nov 2, 2003 3:53 AM
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Probably worth planning for 2004 NAOL and/or NA Intercity Challenge. I like the idea of NAOL but it didn't really work as well as expected. (ie., not many Americans raced at the Cdn races and with the exception of US Long and Short Champs, not many Canadians raced at the US races). But the Canucks did win overall so that is good! ;-) Seriously though, we want a set of races or format that increases elite participation (a good field means good competition and good fun). The NA Intercity Format perhaps has more potential to do this given the development of fun inter regional/city rivalries. Should the NA Intercity Challenge morph into NAOL. Each city/region gets points in the league from each race? How many races? Format? Locations? Earlier planning will likely mean more participants....
Nov 5, 2003 10:27 PM
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Apparently this isn't a hot topic. I'll agree that not many Americans made it to COCs but I think GLOF did fairly well drawing them considering ROC, WCOC and DVOA held A meets close to (i.e. in) the US northeast the next three weekends.
I doubt if regional/city rivalries will prove more motivational than international ones. Though if Sergey or someone else wants to assume the burden of slicing up the results for NAOL in other ways, why not?
A thought on the scoring for NAOL - the points earned drop very quickly with placing. Will the fifteenth-best orienteer of either gender in North America be highly motivated to attend a distant and expensive race by the likelihood of earning 1 point per day, maybe a few more, maybe none at all? If we want NAOL to encourage broader participation, perhaps the points ought to extend further down the results list and favour the top finishers less.
That said, the current NAOL rules make the choice of events seem largely pre-determined what with three races at the COC's, two at the US Classic Champs, two at the North Americans and the US Short automatically included. Maybe the US Long Championships and trials races although they aren't very convenient for Canadians. The May HVO meet in Harriman, the November CNYO/EMPO meet and/or the sometime in the fall SVO meet in Harriman (not yet sanctioned) might be better. I can see holding almost all of the races in the US to balance the presumed reluctance of Americans to fly all the way to the Yukon (at least until I actually see a plausible schedule of 2004 Canadian A events) but it would be nice if the races were somewhat accessible.
That'll be my two cents for the moment.
Jon
I doubt if regional/city rivalries will prove more motivational than international ones. Though if Sergey or someone else wants to assume the burden of slicing up the results for NAOL in other ways, why not?
A thought on the scoring for NAOL - the points earned drop very quickly with placing. Will the fifteenth-best orienteer of either gender in North America be highly motivated to attend a distant and expensive race by the likelihood of earning 1 point per day, maybe a few more, maybe none at all? If we want NAOL to encourage broader participation, perhaps the points ought to extend further down the results list and favour the top finishers less.
That said, the current NAOL rules make the choice of events seem largely pre-determined what with three races at the COC's, two at the US Classic Champs, two at the North Americans and the US Short automatically included. Maybe the US Long Championships and trials races although they aren't very convenient for Canadians. The May HVO meet in Harriman, the November CNYO/EMPO meet and/or the sometime in the fall SVO meet in Harriman (not yet sanctioned) might be better. I can see holding almost all of the races in the US to balance the presumed reluctance of Americans to fly all the way to the Yukon (at least until I actually see a plausible schedule of 2004 Canadian A events) but it would be nice if the races were somewhat accessible.
That'll be my two cents for the moment.
Jon
Nov 11, 2003 1:50 AM
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Jon, I find it interesting what you consider "plausible". Part of the difficulty with living in North America is that there are huge distances from one side of this continent to the other. So while meets in the eastern US may be "plausible" to you, they are definitely not convenient or inexpensive to me in the Yukon or other western Canadians. My guess is that those in the western US probably still find it pretty expensive to get to eastern US for races.
I think the main idea behind the selection of NAOL races (someone correct me if I am wrong) is firstly, to include the major races on the continent eg. nationals, NA CHamps etc. and secondly to have regional representation. some in US, some in Canada. Some in the east and some in the west. I think the 2003 NAOL did a good job of that. This made it more or less fair. If all the races are in eastern US then my guess is that those living in the eastern US will have a distinct advantage.and then maybe we should just call it the Eastern US Orienteering League.
anyway, I personally liked the NAOL and although it wasn't a major factor in deciding which races to do, it was a small one. It might have pushed me over the edge when I was deciding whether to go to GLOF or not. I think that is a start. If the NAOL continues for a few years I think it will become more and more important for people. It is unrealistic to expect something new like the NAOL to be instantly a huge success with major prestige attached to it.
Anyway, I hope it continues!! good work Sergey!! I also hope that whether or not it is part of NAOL and despite the long distances that people will come up to Whitehorse for COC's because we have some truly awesome, challenging terrain.
CHeers,
%#!*^@
(the orienteer formerly known as "the shadow")
I think the main idea behind the selection of NAOL races (someone correct me if I am wrong) is firstly, to include the major races on the continent eg. nationals, NA CHamps etc. and secondly to have regional representation. some in US, some in Canada. Some in the east and some in the west. I think the 2003 NAOL did a good job of that. This made it more or less fair. If all the races are in eastern US then my guess is that those living in the eastern US will have a distinct advantage.and then maybe we should just call it the Eastern US Orienteering League.
anyway, I personally liked the NAOL and although it wasn't a major factor in deciding which races to do, it was a small one. It might have pushed me over the edge when I was deciding whether to go to GLOF or not. I think that is a start. If the NAOL continues for a few years I think it will become more and more important for people. It is unrealistic to expect something new like the NAOL to be instantly a huge success with major prestige attached to it.
Anyway, I hope it continues!! good work Sergey!! I also hope that whether or not it is part of NAOL and despite the long distances that people will come up to Whitehorse for COC's because we have some truly awesome, challenging terrain.
CHeers,
%#!*^@
(the orienteer formerly known as "the shadow")
Nov 11, 2003 6:03 PM
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Time for me to get all defensive - I think I was on rock solid ground saying no one had assembled a "plausible" (though "plausibly complete" would have been more precise) schedule of Canadian A events when I wrote. As far as I know neither the COF site nor Osquad has anything for 2004 other than the COCs on their meet schedule and it's a little bit hard to include meets we don't know about in NAOL.
My use of "accessible" is harder to defend though. Or, at least, somewhat biased by my location. But I have my doubts as to whether any Canadians will be moved to go to the Short and Long Championships by their inclusion in NAOL given that hardly any made it to this year's US Champs at Lake Tahoe. On reflection, the US trials probably are easily accessible to western Canadians - I have no idea how many would usually go to the Thousand Day but maybe NAOL would attract more, even so soon after most Canadians would have taken time off to fly expensively to the Yukon.
BTW, my perspective may not be normative but I don't think of Wisconsin (I believe the actual maps for the 2004 US Champs will be there rather than in Minnesota) as being in the Eastern US. North Eastern Ohio, sure, even if it's the Midwest in some technical (wrong word?) sense but the US champs definitely won't be held in the east. In which case, assuming the NAOL again comprises twelve races, I do think it would be unreasonable to include both two (?) races at the US Team Trials and the US Long Championships and one more race from I don't know where but not a single race in the northeast.
Jon
My use of "accessible" is harder to defend though. Or, at least, somewhat biased by my location. But I have my doubts as to whether any Canadians will be moved to go to the Short and Long Championships by their inclusion in NAOL given that hardly any made it to this year's US Champs at Lake Tahoe. On reflection, the US trials probably are easily accessible to western Canadians - I have no idea how many would usually go to the Thousand Day but maybe NAOL would attract more, even so soon after most Canadians would have taken time off to fly expensively to the Yukon.
BTW, my perspective may not be normative but I don't think of Wisconsin (I believe the actual maps for the 2004 US Champs will be there rather than in Minnesota) as being in the Eastern US. North Eastern Ohio, sure, even if it's the Midwest in some technical (wrong word?) sense but the US champs definitely won't be held in the east. In which case, assuming the NAOL again comprises twelve races, I do think it would be unreasonable to include both two (?) races at the US Team Trials and the US Long Championships and one more race from I don't know where but not a single race in the northeast.
Jon
Nov 11, 2003 6:50 PM
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The 2004 US Short and Long will be in a terrain very little like the 2003 US Individual Champs. There will be some poison oak, sure; but also mostly medium-steep open hillsides, rock features, good maps, and excellent organization. Plenty of crazy wild pigs to follow, and great views. Roundtrips from Vancouver can usually be had from US $200 on sale.
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The opinions expressed in this message are those of Vladimir only. These opinions do not represent the official position of the U. S. Orienteering Team or the U. S. Orienteering Federation.
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The opinions expressed in this message are those of Vladimir only. These opinions do not represent the official position of the U. S. Orienteering Team or the U. S. Orienteering Federation.
Nov 11, 2003 8:23 PM
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Why don't you guys form teams by region? Divide up N. America so that each area gets roughly the same number of competitors. Then pick the meets so that each region gets a "home" meet. Maybe throw in a few relays here and there. It might help to get people to the meets as they don't want to let down their team.
Nov 18, 2003 11:01 PM
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Has the US decided on the location and date of the NAOC's for 2004 yet? ...
Nov 19, 2003 5:53 AM
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Um, where are, say, American's supposed to learn where the US Champs are going to be? The USOF website is getting much less fresh - no longer posting links to A-event results or upcoming major events.
The USOF A-event site which has seemed the freshest list of US A event plans doesn't mentioned the US Long/Short/Classic or Relay Champs. It mentions some events that I'm starting to connect to the phrases here. It appears the US Champs is in Wisconson, and the Long/Short is in the Bay Area, and I'd guess the Relay is near Albany, NY. Is this official? If so, is it officially posted anywhere?
And as for the NAOC's, I thought OCIN was bidding on it, but it looks like they got the Interscholastics instead (was that related to the Kazahstan APOC conflict??)
The USOF A-event site which has seemed the freshest list of US A event plans doesn't mentioned the US Long/Short/Classic or Relay Champs. It mentions some events that I'm starting to connect to the phrases here. It appears the US Champs is in Wisconson, and the Long/Short is in the Bay Area, and I'd guess the Relay is near Albany, NY. Is this official? If so, is it officially posted anywhere?
And as for the NAOC's, I thought OCIN was bidding on it, but it looks like they got the Interscholastics instead (was that related to the Kazahstan APOC conflict??)
Nov 19, 2003 4:27 PM
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NAOC approved at the Nov 1 BoD meeting:
May 29-30, 2004
Location
Cuyahoga Valley National Park; between Cleveland and Akron, Ohio; approximately 25 miles from each city; HQ will be at Camp Manatoc, a BSA camp on the map.
The relay champs will be in Maine, not Albany, I believe in the fall
Nov 20, 2003 12:20 AM
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SHIT SHIT SHIT. Say it isn't so. May 29-30, 2004 is Memorial Day weekend. SVO has (had?) a ROGAINE scheduled for that weekend. Just got final premissions from the state forest last week, and still waiting on the state park base permissions. This sucks. If I get my event posted on the ROGAINE calendar before the NAOC is posted on the USOF schedule do I get priority?
Nov 20, 2003 7:17 AM
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Jeez, what is it about Memorial Day weekend and multiple national events? Now let's make one of them the Team Trials, so we can relive last year all over again!
Nov 20, 2003 2:41 PM
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Its just that there are so many meets this year. Seems like twice as many as in the past few years. This is a great thing for competitors, but hard on procrastinators like me who have to plan more than a year ahead to get a desired date. I'm especially bad - can barely put together my club's schedule a month before the season. :) If there was someone else willing I'd gladly give up the president's job, but people aren't exactly beating down my door...
The only open weekend left after April 1 2004 is April 10-11, and after that the next opening is June 12-13, and there are already mini rogaines sheculed that weekend and the one following. There are 8 A-meets and the AZ ROGAINE on the schedule for this spring - all within a 2.5 month span! And I thought this fall was tough. Will be interesting to see some attendance stats per-meet at the end.
The only open weekend left after April 1 2004 is April 10-11, and after that the next opening is June 12-13, and there are already mini rogaines sheculed that weekend and the one following. There are 8 A-meets and the AZ ROGAINE on the schedule for this spring - all within a 2.5 month span! And I thought this fall was tough. Will be interesting to see some attendance stats per-meet at the end.
Nov 20, 2003 2:49 PM
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Oh, and thats just the US calendar. I haven't even looked at the Canadian calendar yet except for Yukon, which I'm already planning to go to. Actually the COF schedule doesn't have any events on it yet.
Nov 21, 2003 4:38 PM
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The topic of the number of A-Meets seems interesting to me. In most European countries, there is a set number of highest level meets per year, for which clubs can bid. In the US, it seems the other way around - any club can hold an A-Meet as long as it fulfils certain criteria. This seems fine when you don't have many clubs wanting to organize one (why limit then?), but spring 04 does seem to have a bit of inflation, which means dilution of attendance.
So, is it worth considering some sort of limitation on the number of A-Meets? Theoretically the quality should go up as only the best ones will come through, and attendance will be higher, but choice will be lower of course. And the US is pretty big, so there are still only few A-Meets per region...
For comparison, the European standards vary. There seem to be 7-10 A Meets a year in most countries, often regrouped into 5-7 weekends. However, France has an extreme version with 2 A-Meets, a club champs/short race weekend, and 4 consecutive days of champs. (4 weekends a year in total). In addition there are regional structures of championships and cup events.
It does limit comparison, but it certainly increases attendance - everyone is there, and it provides a good focal point for training.
Not directly related to NAOL all this, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless..
So, is it worth considering some sort of limitation on the number of A-Meets? Theoretically the quality should go up as only the best ones will come through, and attendance will be higher, but choice will be lower of course. And the US is pretty big, so there are still only few A-Meets per region...
For comparison, the European standards vary. There seem to be 7-10 A Meets a year in most countries, often regrouped into 5-7 weekends. However, France has an extreme version with 2 A-Meets, a club champs/short race weekend, and 4 consecutive days of champs. (4 weekends a year in total). In addition there are regional structures of championships and cup events.
It does limit comparison, but it certainly increases attendance - everyone is there, and it provides a good focal point for training.
Not directly related to NAOL all this, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless..
Nov 21, 2003 5:32 PM
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Given the size of the US, I think it's fine to have a bunch of A-events. While it's probably not really great to have 4 in the same region on back-to-back weekends, having 4 that are well spread out is probably fine. Not that many people fly to A-events, so having a large number of A-events spread around is fine, and probably doesn't hurt attendence too much.
(I don't even mind having a same day conflict, esp. if the events are, say, over 1000 miles apart - by European scales, that's like having a conflicting ranking event choice between Sweden and England, not something people tend to worry about much.)
As for getting everyone together, there is still a Classic Champs, a Short/Long champs, a Relay champs, and a Team Trials, when tend to draw good attendence.
I like the US mix thus far. Perhaps we (incl. the Sanctioning comittee) should just fret a little less about 2 A-events on the same day, thousands of miles apart. Or just think about location more when looking at conflicts...
(I don't even mind having a same day conflict, esp. if the events are, say, over 1000 miles apart - by European scales, that's like having a conflicting ranking event choice between Sweden and England, not something people tend to worry about much.)
As for getting everyone together, there is still a Classic Champs, a Short/Long champs, a Relay champs, and a Team Trials, when tend to draw good attendence.
I like the US mix thus far. Perhaps we (incl. the Sanctioning comittee) should just fret a little less about 2 A-events on the same day, thousands of miles apart. Or just think about location more when looking at conflicts...
Nov 22, 2003 3:15 AM
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Don't forget the Billygoat, as well: April 25, same weekend as the Wisconsin A-meet. Those two are far enough apart that we don't consider it a problem. NAOC in Ohio and a Rogaine in PA is more of a conflict, though.
Nov 22, 2003 8:38 AM
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Eddie, you are doing great job as SVO president,
do not leave this post. Two ROGAINES in one month is one too many (I am talking about Arizona in May 2004). It takes a month to six weeks for an old guy like me to fully recover after a serious 24 Hr. ROGAINE.
If you consider moving the date for your ROGAINE keep in mind CNYO ROGAINE - do not make them too close, please. I loved your last ROGAINE and would not want to miss it next year(I need to correct the tactical errors we made last time).
Now, about having too many meets:
You all sound like organizers not like athletes.
Organizers shell worry about attendance, competitive orienteers shell consider quality of the event: good map and good courses will most of the time do it for me. If a list of signed up athletes is very competitive it’s a bonus, but not a must.
Competitive orienteer also shell consider planning before attending a meet
As a competitive orienteer I found for myself that having participating in a two day A-meet every two weeks worked best for me (during competitive spring or fall season). Working (as most of us do) and training and traveling and racing required a lot of mental and physical energy. Trying to do too much did not work well.
My point is: it is great to have many meets – stop complaining about it, start choosing the ones you would like to attend. One shell decide for him(her)self what works best for him(her). I know Boris likes to run in the forest with the map as much as possible to get into best orienteering shape, I found for myself that that increases chances of injury and I used to get emotionally tired from racing every week, when I had a chance to do it.
Greg
do not leave this post. Two ROGAINES in one month is one too many (I am talking about Arizona in May 2004). It takes a month to six weeks for an old guy like me to fully recover after a serious 24 Hr. ROGAINE.
If you consider moving the date for your ROGAINE keep in mind CNYO ROGAINE - do not make them too close, please. I loved your last ROGAINE and would not want to miss it next year(I need to correct the tactical errors we made last time).
Now, about having too many meets:
You all sound like organizers not like athletes.
Organizers shell worry about attendance, competitive orienteers shell consider quality of the event: good map and good courses will most of the time do it for me. If a list of signed up athletes is very competitive it’s a bonus, but not a must.
Competitive orienteer also shell consider planning before attending a meet
As a competitive orienteer I found for myself that having participating in a two day A-meet every two weeks worked best for me (during competitive spring or fall season). Working (as most of us do) and training and traveling and racing required a lot of mental and physical energy. Trying to do too much did not work well.
My point is: it is great to have many meets – stop complaining about it, start choosing the ones you would like to attend. One shell decide for him(her)self what works best for him(her). I know Boris likes to run in the forest with the map as much as possible to get into best orienteering shape, I found for myself that that increases chances of injury and I used to get emotionally tired from racing every week, when I had a chance to do it.
Greg
This discussion thread is closed.