Discussion: Live From CES: Garmin Forerunner 205 and 305
in: Orienteering; Gear & Toys
Jan 5, 2006 1:54 PM
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I am already contemplating upgrading my Forerunner 301 - though I personally would go with the FR 205, not the 305 with the HR monitor. I just haven't gotten much out of two different HR monitors over the years.
I have gone from the original shoe pod distance thingee, to the Timex Time & Distance (GPS without the tracking), to the Foretunner 201 (GPS with HR), to the Forerunner 301.
The FR 205/305 is claiming more accurate tracking. I usually am the first kid on the block with these things, but I think I will wait a little bit on this...
I have gone from the original shoe pod distance thingee, to the Timex Time & Distance (GPS without the tracking), to the Foretunner 201 (GPS with HR), to the Forerunner 301.
The FR 205/305 is claiming more accurate tracking. I usually am the first kid on the block with these things, but I think I will wait a little bit on this...
Jan 5, 2006 1:59 PM
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I'm curious how these will compare in accuracy to the Polar S625x, with its intertial system food pod. I've found the Polar gizmo to be crazy accurate everywhere, but of course it lacks the ability to give you a track of what you've covered. Someone will probably come along and say they've conducted secret agent squirrel tests on the products and give me the low down.
Jan 5, 2006 2:11 PM
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I found the foot pod systems to be fairly accurate on road runs (but not good on trails). But then I bought them in their infancy...I am guessing that the technology has improved in the last 5 years.
I like the Forerunner GPS product since it is only one piece. And the new, "improved" units claim to address the signal drops experienced under tree cover or around tall buildings.
I like the Forerunner GPS product since it is only one piece. And the new, "improved" units claim to address the signal drops experienced under tree cover or around tall buildings.
Jan 5, 2006 2:40 PM
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I never tested Polar food pod in the woods. I think Valerie is right - it cann't be accurate in the woods. Still, it's pretty accurate on flat trails or track.
Jan 5, 2006 3:09 PM
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As far as I understand it, the Polar foot pod works kind of like an airplane's INS, in that it measures the acceleration of your foot, which enables the watch to calculate distance and speed. Honest question: what is it about running in terrain that would reduce the accuracy?
As much as I like gizmos to be accurate, I would really like someone to tell me that all my trail runs done with the Polar pod were actually longer than measured. ;-)
As much as I like gizmos to be accurate, I would really like someone to tell me that all my trail runs done with the Polar pod were actually longer than measured. ;-)
Jan 5, 2006 3:56 PM
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As far as I heard from others, Polar food pod is NOT accurate running uphills/downhills (pure terrain runs) due to different dynamic in your strides (it measures and analyzes them). But may be on the trail it still good enough cause you don't have to jump over fallen trees, boulders, rocks, etc.
Jan 5, 2006 8:12 PM
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Awesome!
Since I've tested SiRFstar III's at work, I think I can claim to be a bit of an expert on SiRFstar III GPS chips (the heart of the FR 205/305), and they are indeed _much_ improved Garmin's current engine.
I work on Qualcomm's GPS chips and the SiRFstar II and SiRFstar III are the only other chip (aside from our own) that we have tested that maintains GPS availability in more or less any oreinteering-like environment. Qualcomm's GPS chips are, at this point, (in my opinion) just as good as the SiRFstar III for tracking, but all of our GPS chips are part of wireless phone chips!
Both chips are HS-GPS (High-sensitivity GPS) chips, and both of them track well in forests, where traditional GPS units fail. We have tested for example, a traditional Garmin handheld, and leading-brand GPS Surveying unit with INS integration, a SiRFstar III and our own GPS units in difficult forests (e.g. the upper part of Steven's Canyon Road, which gets nearly as densely forested as Big Basin (California): http://members.cruzio.com/~rjohnson/bigbasin02_020... which I see as one of the toughest-standards in orienteering GPS.)
In these conditions, the tradition Garmin GPS, and even the INS-aided GPS surveying unit fall apart - but the SiRFstar III and Qualcomm's units just keep on tracking, right on the road.
The question I've had for a long time is when this chips are going to be available in a runner friendly package! The two leading candidates were: (1) Qualcomm's GPS chip, on some kind of easy-to-run-with phone, with http://bonesinmotion.com (or similar) software on the phone, or (2) Garmin plus a SiRFstar III engine (which I was happy to hear the press-release about several months ago.)
I almost asked Angelica for a 201/301 for Xmas, but I was holding out precisely for the SiRFstar III engine! A 205/305 is now definite on my, uh... Valentine's day list :)
Since I've tested SiRFstar III's at work, I think I can claim to be a bit of an expert on SiRFstar III GPS chips (the heart of the FR 205/305), and they are indeed _much_ improved Garmin's current engine.
I work on Qualcomm's GPS chips and the SiRFstar II and SiRFstar III are the only other chip (aside from our own) that we have tested that maintains GPS availability in more or less any oreinteering-like environment. Qualcomm's GPS chips are, at this point, (in my opinion) just as good as the SiRFstar III for tracking, but all of our GPS chips are part of wireless phone chips!
Both chips are HS-GPS (High-sensitivity GPS) chips, and both of them track well in forests, where traditional GPS units fail. We have tested for example, a traditional Garmin handheld, and leading-brand GPS Surveying unit with INS integration, a SiRFstar III and our own GPS units in difficult forests (e.g. the upper part of Steven's Canyon Road, which gets nearly as densely forested as Big Basin (California): http://members.cruzio.com/~rjohnson/bigbasin02_020... which I see as one of the toughest-standards in orienteering GPS.)
In these conditions, the tradition Garmin GPS, and even the INS-aided GPS surveying unit fall apart - but the SiRFstar III and Qualcomm's units just keep on tracking, right on the road.
The question I've had for a long time is when this chips are going to be available in a runner friendly package! The two leading candidates were: (1) Qualcomm's GPS chip, on some kind of easy-to-run-with phone, with http://bonesinmotion.com (or similar) software on the phone, or (2) Garmin plus a SiRFstar III engine (which I was happy to hear the press-release about several months ago.)
I almost asked Angelica for a 201/301 for Xmas, but I was holding out precisely for the SiRFstar III engine! A 205/305 is now definite on my, uh... Valentine's day list :)
Jan 5, 2006 8:19 PM
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Note that the Qualcomm GPS + bones-in-motion (or similar) next step may indeed provide a convergence-device like item. Imagine the same form factor as the 205/305 (a big watch) that is not only your GPS tracker & HR monitor, but is also your phone and your PDA (and your in-car-driving directions device), and is also your Internet connection over which you can send your GPS/HR monitor training record directly to AttackPoint.
On a realted note, the Qualcomm GPS stuff (since it's comes with a phone :), could probably also be used some great WOC tracking (vastly more real-time and available than what Nokia & the WOC organizers tried a few years ago in Finland...)
On a realted note, the Qualcomm GPS stuff (since it's comes with a phone :), could probably also be used some great WOC tracking (vastly more real-time and available than what Nokia & the WOC organizers tried a few years ago in Finland...)
Jan 5, 2006 8:22 PM
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Yeah, I'm diggin that 205 big time. Now I'll just need to wear clunky hardware on two wrists, plus a headlamp, the compass, etc... all geeked out. Seriously, I like this thing a lot. Can we get them to sponsor us? Or Qualcomm if they'll put those chips in some user-friendly packaging?
Jan 5, 2006 9:07 PM
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Thanks for the write-up, Wyatt. History will most likely repeat itself, and I will be putting an order in soon. Tech Depot is offering the lowest price so far...
Jan 5, 2006 10:15 PM
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You haven't managed to kill my buzz yet, but my Christmas present 201 is not looking quite as good as it did a few days ago. The price was right anyway.
Jan 5, 2006 10:49 PM
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I'll even wear both my 301 and the 205 for comparison. But like I have always said, it still doesn't help me find the controls - only shows me how hopelessly messed I was after the fact. ")
Mike, I have had a ton of fun with my 201 & 301. And only the worst tracks come in the leafiest parks with deep reentrants while orineteering.
Mike, I have had a ton of fun with my 201 & 301. And only the worst tracks come in the leafiest parks with deep reentrants while orineteering.
Jan 6, 2006 12:20 AM
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Years ago, my standard for tough GPS foliage was always Big Basin and that's way worse than most New York forests - at Big Basin, there are parts where the trees are 100m tall (and they're usually over 50m tall), and large areas where the small streaks of sunlight that do reach the ground are almost blinding. Plus reentrants that need 7.5m contours on a 1:10,000 map... (not to mention a section of hillside that is marked with heavy purple X'ing to try to hide the fact that ~20 contours go in on one side, and only about 8 go out on the other side...)
Anyway, as Val. said, the 201/301 should work well most of the time, but once you lose track in thick trees/bushes, it doesn't usually come back to life unless you get to much lighter forest canopy.
The HSGPS receivers tend to work a little differently, with some FFT/long-integration schemes which help with more sensitivity, improving how weak the signal can still be tracked at, and re-acquiring a lost signal at much lower signal strengths.
Still, I suspect there will be some areas of Big Basin where the 205/305 might still have trouble, especially deep in some reentrants, or, say, in "The Slot" or other deep notches between cliffs - GPS signals don't go through solid earth, so you still need to have line of sight (ignoring trees) to ~ 3 satellites most of the time and 4 at least some of the time. (Usually there are ~7-12 above the horizon so when over 50% of the sky is blocked by rock or dirt (or large buildings*), you may begin to lose good tracking.)
(*With large buildings, you often get reflected signals, which can screw up the accuracy (as you're measuring a line-of-sight that isn't straight :), but availability even in dense urban areas (outdoors) is nearly 100%. If you moving (e.g. running) things are much better than when you are stopped, because (a) even if you do hit a really bad spot, you'll be out if fairly quickly, and (b) the reflected signals are changing rapidly, so the GPS position engine can average out a lot of the reflected-signal errors.)
Anyway, as Val. said, the 201/301 should work well most of the time, but once you lose track in thick trees/bushes, it doesn't usually come back to life unless you get to much lighter forest canopy.
The HSGPS receivers tend to work a little differently, with some FFT/long-integration schemes which help with more sensitivity, improving how weak the signal can still be tracked at, and re-acquiring a lost signal at much lower signal strengths.
Still, I suspect there will be some areas of Big Basin where the 205/305 might still have trouble, especially deep in some reentrants, or, say, in "The Slot" or other deep notches between cliffs - GPS signals don't go through solid earth, so you still need to have line of sight (ignoring trees) to ~ 3 satellites most of the time and 4 at least some of the time. (Usually there are ~7-12 above the horizon so when over 50% of the sky is blocked by rock or dirt (or large buildings*), you may begin to lose good tracking.)
(*With large buildings, you often get reflected signals, which can screw up the accuracy (as you're measuring a line-of-sight that isn't straight :), but availability even in dense urban areas (outdoors) is nearly 100%. If you moving (e.g. running) things are much better than when you are stopped, because (a) even if you do hit a really bad spot, you'll be out if fairly quickly, and (b) the reflected signals are changing rapidly, so the GPS position engine can average out a lot of the reflected-signal errors.)
Jan 6, 2006 12:27 AM
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With either the 201/301 or the 205/305, it's best to turn it on in an open area, especially if it hasn't been tracking GPS for the last 2 hours or so (if you use it while driving to the park, that can actually be helpful for the GPS tracking, although perhaps not for the battery :).
The reason for this is so that the GPS unit can hear the satellites clearly enough to understand the message coming from the satellites, which tell the GPS unit where the satellites are going to be for the new few hours. (It can get measurements of range-to-satellite at much weaker signal strengths than it can read the message.) (The most important message repeats every 30 seconds, so even stand-alone, a good GPS receiver can, under reasonably good GPS conditions, start from scratch in not much more than 60 seconds.
The Qualcomm units generally don't have this limitation (e.g. you can turn them on in the forest), because they can get the where-are-the-satellites message from their nearest cell phone tower. (Although, you've got to be in cell-phone coverage to get that advantage... if not, the Qualcomm units, like the SiRF units, will need to read the message from the satellites.)
The reason for this is so that the GPS unit can hear the satellites clearly enough to understand the message coming from the satellites, which tell the GPS unit where the satellites are going to be for the new few hours. (It can get measurements of range-to-satellite at much weaker signal strengths than it can read the message.) (The most important message repeats every 30 seconds, so even stand-alone, a good GPS receiver can, under reasonably good GPS conditions, start from scratch in not much more than 60 seconds.
The Qualcomm units generally don't have this limitation (e.g. you can turn them on in the forest), because they can get the where-are-the-satellites message from their nearest cell phone tower. (Although, you've got to be in cell-phone coverage to get that advantage... if not, the Qualcomm units, like the SiRF units, will need to read the message from the satellites.)
Jan 6, 2006 11:57 AM
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As Wyatt suggests, I turn my GPS on and put it on the dashboard on the way to the park. It is always good and ready when I get there, and with around 12 battery hours, it usually isn't an issue.
Jan 6, 2006 6:42 PM
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The people in my office weren't happy when I told them I'm going to buy one of these - and they showed me some cool stuff that is coming along:
In here:
http://bonesinmotion.com/products.html
in the lower left corner you can see a screen shot of what your coming-soon GPS phone will be able to easily upload to a web-page for every workout - an embedded Google Map, a speed vs. distance graph, an elevation profile, weather as of the time you ran, automatic mile/km splits based on actual distance, etc... People at my office are already using this, and it's supposed to be available (as a download) for several models of Sprint & Verizon phones in "early 2006." (In some ways, BiM is trying to become a competitor to AttackPoint - but they've got very tough competition.)
As for the durability and wrist-watch/arm-band form factor need. This GPS/Splits-watch/phone/internet-connection:
http://www.wyattriley.com/Images/GpsWatchPhone.JPG
is already available in Japan and may be coming to the US soon.
In here:
http://bonesinmotion.com/products.html
in the lower left corner you can see a screen shot of what your coming-soon GPS phone will be able to easily upload to a web-page for every workout - an embedded Google Map, a speed vs. distance graph, an elevation profile, weather as of the time you ran, automatic mile/km splits based on actual distance, etc... People at my office are already using this, and it's supposed to be available (as a download) for several models of Sprint & Verizon phones in "early 2006." (In some ways, BiM is trying to become a competitor to AttackPoint - but they've got very tough competition.)
As for the durability and wrist-watch/arm-band form factor need. This GPS/Splits-watch/phone/internet-connection:
http://www.wyattriley.com/Images/GpsWatchPhone.JPG
is already available in Japan and may be coming to the US soon.
Jan 6, 2006 6:53 PM
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I'm NOT sure if I would like to run in the woods with my phone, which I guess will be on expensive side.
Jan 6, 2006 7:00 PM
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Right - even with the right software, the phone you have today is probably too fragile to take on an orienteer course, hence the need for those Casio's to get to the US market... Those can be dropped and rained on w/o a problem, ala some current Nextel phones.
Jan 6, 2006 7:30 PM
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I run in the woods with my phone all the time (a requirement added when baby-O came along). I put it in a zip-lok bag in the back pocket of my jersey. I also take it on bike rides, trail runs, kayaking (in a dry bag), etc.. I've been doing this for several years without incident.
I'm not sure what the model is off hand, but it's Verizon and has a Qualcomm 3G CDMA sticker on it. I wonder if it will work?
I'm not sure what the model is off hand, but it's Verizon and has a Qualcomm 3G CDMA sticker on it. I wonder if it will work?
Jan 6, 2006 8:16 PM
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A question I've been meaning to ask: is there any etiquette involved in wearing these devices during competition? USOF rule wording starts to make it seem like they are supposed to be illegal, but technically the words say something about not "using" navigation aids (beyond map and compass). Wearing doesn't mean you are using it during competition.
I know people wear them (hence all the wonderful maps of routes) - do you need to get permission? Cover the face? Or, are orienteering competitions just such a love-fest that it's not worried about?
I know people wear them (hence all the wonderful maps of routes) - do you need to get permission? Cover the face? Or, are orienteering competitions just such a love-fest that it's not worried about?
Jan 6, 2006 8:45 PM
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Eric, you can ask at:
mailto:support@bonesinmotion.com
and I suspect they'd know.
Using a GPS during a race is illegal, and, so is a stopwatch - you can use that as a navigational aid instead of pace counting if you'd like - but I've never seen that enforced and it would certainly make the Splits pages of this site emptier.
Thus far, for most of the faster competitors, the clunkiness* of using a GPS unit has generally outweighed the competitive benefit. But once people start using 205/305's during competitions, and taking splits with them, this might get dicey.
Once you take a split, I suspect you can not only see how long it's been right there on the face of the watch/GPS (as you have been able to do for years - and is valuable), but also _exactly_ how many meters you are from the point where you took the previous split... Heck you could potentially then just take a split at your attackpoint, or at any point where you're aiming a measured distance from one thing to another. If that gets super easy, as 205/305 _might_ make it, then this may need to come up.
*Although even with today's 'clunky' GPS units, there are levels of competition, e.g. among many rivals not near the top of their age-categories, but who are rivals nonetheless, where one could get a nontrivial advantage over the other by using some displays (e.g. how far East and North have you moved since you last pressed a certain button (e.g. Set-Waypoint or Reset-Start-Point)).
mailto:support@bonesinmotion.com
and I suspect they'd know.
Using a GPS during a race is illegal, and, so is a stopwatch - you can use that as a navigational aid instead of pace counting if you'd like - but I've never seen that enforced and it would certainly make the Splits pages of this site emptier.
Thus far, for most of the faster competitors, the clunkiness* of using a GPS unit has generally outweighed the competitive benefit. But once people start using 205/305's during competitions, and taking splits with them, this might get dicey.
Once you take a split, I suspect you can not only see how long it's been right there on the face of the watch/GPS (as you have been able to do for years - and is valuable), but also _exactly_ how many meters you are from the point where you took the previous split... Heck you could potentially then just take a split at your attackpoint, or at any point where you're aiming a measured distance from one thing to another. If that gets super easy, as 205/305 _might_ make it, then this may need to come up.
*Although even with today's 'clunky' GPS units, there are levels of competition, e.g. among many rivals not near the top of their age-categories, but who are rivals nonetheless, where one could get a nontrivial advantage over the other by using some displays (e.g. how far East and North have you moved since you last pressed a certain button (e.g. Set-Waypoint or Reset-Start-Point)).
Jan 6, 2006 9:12 PM
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I think that as long as you're in contact with the map, GPS doesn't do much for you (since it's really just another way of being in contact with the map). Where it would help is relocating and recovering from errors. Is this the right reentrant or the one 100m before it? I'm 600m from the last control, so this must be the one.
Clearly, even clunky GPS is an advantage in ROGAINEs where the pace is slower and course maps are harder to stay in contact with (especially at night) and have the GPS gridlines on them.
Looking ahead, it's not just map contact information that will be an issue. A device could scan the map and offer intelligent route choice decisions, perhaps displayed on a heads-up device like LCD glasses. This isn't sci-fi - cruise missles and spy drones are doing it today. As the cost of technology decreases, this sort of thing will be quite accessible to the consumer market.
That, in and of itself, is not a threat to the sport because all such devices would be covered by the navigational aids prohibition. However, what if someone has something like this implanted? Do we trust them to turn it off or are they banned from participation. What happens when 90% of the population has an imbedded communication device? This stuff is coming and it wouldn't be a bad idea for some of our sport's leaders to start thining about how to handle it.
Clearly, even clunky GPS is an advantage in ROGAINEs where the pace is slower and course maps are harder to stay in contact with (especially at night) and have the GPS gridlines on them.
Looking ahead, it's not just map contact information that will be an issue. A device could scan the map and offer intelligent route choice decisions, perhaps displayed on a heads-up device like LCD glasses. This isn't sci-fi - cruise missles and spy drones are doing it today. As the cost of technology decreases, this sort of thing will be quite accessible to the consumer market.
That, in and of itself, is not a threat to the sport because all such devices would be covered by the navigational aids prohibition. However, what if someone has something like this implanted? Do we trust them to turn it off or are they banned from participation. What happens when 90% of the population has an imbedded communication device? This stuff is coming and it wouldn't be a bad idea for some of our sport's leaders to start thining about how to handle it.
Mar 1, 2006 3:38 AM
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Check out this video demo of the Bones-in-Motion GPS app. on the phone. Pretty cool. Or see the tour.
Apparently you can wirelessly upload your run from your phone - OR, you can upload from Garmin Training Center (from your Forerunner) to BiM to get a nicely shareable view of your run.
Another cool option was that people can publically post their runs, and you can search them by location - to try to, say, beat someone on a route they normally run - without ever knowing who they are :)
Apparently you can wirelessly upload your run from your phone - OR, you can upload from Garmin Training Center (from your Forerunner) to BiM to get a nicely shareable view of your run.
Another cool option was that people can publically post their runs, and you can search them by location - to try to, say, beat someone on a route they normally run - without ever knowing who they are :)
Mar 1, 2006 12:56 PM
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Cool, Wyatt. I uploaded my data from Sunday's course. Very easy to use. Google map is not very useful an O meet, but the other data is nice. And it would work nicely with biking & running.
Mar 3, 2006 3:29 AM
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Is there a publicly accessible link to your training log page for Sunday's course? I still haven't signed up with them, but I may pick up a 305 when it's out (this week???), and then posting a walk or two (all I'm doing these days) to BimActive (apparently free?) would be nice...
Mar 3, 2006 11:56 AM
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Hey, Wyatt, thanks for asking that question! I hadn't bothered to publish it because I thought it was only the Google map, but I discovered the topo choice when I went to publish it for you. Here is my BimActive entry.
Yes, it is free - $9.99 monthly charge is for using your cell phone. I still like GarTrip for using my own map. I'll post the PDF from that one tonight.
My 205 is due from REI anyday. My understanding is that the delivery of the 305 is further behind...
Yes, it is free - $9.99 monthly charge is for using your cell phone. I still like GarTrip for using my own map. I'll post the PDF from that one tonight.
My 205 is due from REI anyday. My understanding is that the delivery of the 305 is further behind...
Mar 8, 2006 6:26 PM
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bim:
This site is very targeted to the orienteering athlete. Do you think it would be a good idea to provide an auto pass-through from a BiM Active enabled handset to an attackpoint training log? We would still have to host the location and elevation data for privacy reasons but could provide raw performance information and environmental data. Just a thought and no promises as we are working on some cool new community features.
Mar 9, 2006 12:24 AM
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What about battery life? I understand they last about 12 hours, which is fine, but I want to replace the battery for ROGAINEs and AR. I don't expect that is possible...
What is the power input like? Can we invent a portable charger?
What is the power input like? Can we invent a portable charger?
Mar 9, 2006 5:04 PM
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I'm just catching up with this thread again.
Our club held a GPS-O as a separate course to the regular O. By the time the participants were part way through the Gps-O part of the course (no previous O experience) they began to really appreciate the maps and how accurate they were and started to rely less on their GPS units.
A few points did come up, however. Here on the West Coast (Victoria, BC) most of our Os are done in forest cover and traditional GPS units will not maintain a lock for significant portions of the courses.
It takes time to lay out a course when one must obtain and record UTM/Coords for each control location. It also takes time for the participants to enter this information to their unit. We did not do it by PC since there are too many variables with USB and Serial drivers, GPS makes etc...
Also, there is no way that a GPS user could ever be competitive (at this point) compared to even a moderately skilled orienteer since a GPS will only provide positional information and not plan routes on the fly.
Also, it's not possible at present to upload image file maps to GPS units since proprietary software and mapping is still a big part of the money (profit) game.
Another point is that, with just a few exceptions perhaps, O maps are not adequately geo-referenced to be of much use... thereby preventing one from scanning in the map and using it on a PC to route plan.
As for ROGAINEs, if one finds they need a GPS, then they're in the wrong sport and doing it for the wrong reasons. I would think for most people, it's how the game is played and much as what the game is... why spoil it for yourself (and others)?
And finally, to the real question here... the newer HS-GPS units are really excellent compared to the "traditional" units. I know a number of people who have purchased the Garmin 76CSx for competitive ($$$) geo-caching and they are stellar performers allowing for excellent signal reception, projection of points using GC route calculations and the like (competitive geo-caching is pretty much a local phenomenon and the navigational calculations are not trivial at all... points that are 1000s of kms apart calculated to within cms etc.).
Anyhow... I'm keeping my attention focused on the mountain bike units with Cadence and HR, but where I ride is so densely covered in trees I'm not sure that the new chips would hold up yet. I would also like to see distances that are calculated with elevation (slope) data factored in... but that is coming, I'm sure.
Our club held a GPS-O as a separate course to the regular O. By the time the participants were part way through the Gps-O part of the course (no previous O experience) they began to really appreciate the maps and how accurate they were and started to rely less on their GPS units.
A few points did come up, however. Here on the West Coast (Victoria, BC) most of our Os are done in forest cover and traditional GPS units will not maintain a lock for significant portions of the courses.
It takes time to lay out a course when one must obtain and record UTM/Coords for each control location. It also takes time for the participants to enter this information to their unit. We did not do it by PC since there are too many variables with USB and Serial drivers, GPS makes etc...
Also, there is no way that a GPS user could ever be competitive (at this point) compared to even a moderately skilled orienteer since a GPS will only provide positional information and not plan routes on the fly.
Also, it's not possible at present to upload image file maps to GPS units since proprietary software and mapping is still a big part of the money (profit) game.
Another point is that, with just a few exceptions perhaps, O maps are not adequately geo-referenced to be of much use... thereby preventing one from scanning in the map and using it on a PC to route plan.
As for ROGAINEs, if one finds they need a GPS, then they're in the wrong sport and doing it for the wrong reasons. I would think for most people, it's how the game is played and much as what the game is... why spoil it for yourself (and others)?
And finally, to the real question here... the newer HS-GPS units are really excellent compared to the "traditional" units. I know a number of people who have purchased the Garmin 76CSx for competitive ($$$) geo-caching and they are stellar performers allowing for excellent signal reception, projection of points using GC route calculations and the like (competitive geo-caching is pretty much a local phenomenon and the navigational calculations are not trivial at all... points that are 1000s of kms apart calculated to within cms etc.).
Anyhow... I'm keeping my attention focused on the mountain bike units with Cadence and HR, but where I ride is so densely covered in trees I'm not sure that the new chips would hold up yet. I would also like to see distances that are calculated with elevation (slope) data factored in... but that is coming, I'm sure.
Mar 10, 2006 4:48 AM
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My Polar food pod worked great for approximately 90 minutes, after which it fell off and disappeared.
Polar says it will cost me $125 to get a new one. (Half the cost of a Forerunner 205)
The problem with GPS though is that it works poorly in steep areas. (I.e. most Bay Area maps.)
Polar says it will cost me $125 to get a new one. (Half the cost of a Forerunner 205)
The problem with GPS though is that it works poorly in steep areas. (I.e. most Bay Area maps.)
Mar 10, 2006 1:00 PM
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If you're carrying around a food pod, you'll never get yourself under a G. Particularly since polar food pods usually contain muktuk or sticks of butter.
(Oops, wrong thread...)
(Oops, wrong thread...)
Mar 11, 2006 6:27 PM
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Night-hawk & Mind-sweeper seem to be thinking about 'old-school' GPS receivers. HSGPS (high-sensitivty) GPS recievers, such as Qualcomm/Sprint&Verizon/Bones-In-Motion, and the SiRF/Garmin combination are much better - ~15dB more sensitive than a traditonal GPS.
That won't make then see through mountains, but they should see through a lot more tree cover. Plus they are better designed to regain signal 'lock' once 'lock' is lost (and even smooth through the intervening times in barely noticable ways...)
That's the THEORY. How well do they work in practice? I've seen from Val's BiM log that she got her Forerunner 205 - but apparently hasn't tested it anywhere hard yet.
Can people who do buy the 205/305 please try it in areas that they consider 'hard' ? Note that REI's got a pretty easy return policy, so you can buy a Forerunner there, try it in a few difficult forests over a few weeks (or longer, I think), and then return it if it drops.
E.g. Mindsweeper - you can buy one at REI, try it in a Redwood forest (e.g. Huddart/Big Basin), and then return it if it doesn't work. (And please let us know how well it works.
So all, please post your 205/305 experience - especially if they are doing what they promise - making GPS usable for tracking/training-logging in O' terrain!
That won't make then see through mountains, but they should see through a lot more tree cover. Plus they are better designed to regain signal 'lock' once 'lock' is lost (and even smooth through the intervening times in barely noticable ways...)
That's the THEORY. How well do they work in practice? I've seen from Val's BiM log that she got her Forerunner 205 - but apparently hasn't tested it anywhere hard yet.
Can people who do buy the 205/305 please try it in areas that they consider 'hard' ? Note that REI's got a pretty easy return policy, so you can buy a Forerunner there, try it in a few difficult forests over a few weeks (or longer, I think), and then return it if it drops.
E.g. Mindsweeper - you can buy one at REI, try it in a Redwood forest (e.g. Huddart/Big Basin), and then return it if it doesn't work. (And please let us know how well it works.
So all, please post your 205/305 experience - especially if they are doing what they promise - making GPS usable for tracking/training-logging in O' terrain!
Mar 12, 2006 1:30 PM
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I looked at the BimActive entries posted here. It seems a bit spooky that there is a map showing exactly where she lives and anyone can see it, or use it.
Mar 12, 2006 8:01 PM
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Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that, David. Blew away the neighborhood run from thre BIM blog...
Mar 12, 2006 11:17 PM
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205 (blue) vs 301 (red) tracks - see my BiM blog referenced above for further discussion on the two tracks.
Mar 13, 2006 1:06 PM
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By design, the 205 should be better at holding a lock than the 301. But in places where they both are tracking fine, it may not be noticably more accurate (that depends a bit on the implementation details that I don't know precisely for the SiRFstar III - often they save cost & battery power by not trying to push the accuracy to the limit.)
We tested Speedy's new 205 this weekend - first test - first went outside to get it started (it needed that outside part - startup in the house was working pretty slow.) We were tracking 9 satellites outside. Then went inside the house - still tracking 9. Then went inside an interior bathroom and closed the door - still tracking 9. Then went into an interior closet in the basement, and closed the door. And we were tracking 7 satellites.
One thing we noticed is that it does seem sensitive to the antenna position - the antenna is in the bent-over part that isn't part of the watch face - if that was pointed at the ground, it had a hard time hold 9 satellites outside. So may sure that when you are running, that part is mostly facing up much of the time (it doesn't have to be all the time... just don't point it at the ground.)
One minor drawback of the design, is that when you are looking at the display, the antenna is pointing sideways/slightly down, so the signal drops, and possibly some of the actual navigable stats (e.g. speed) get less reliable - but I think that was done so that when runnng, the antenna tends to point up...
Angelica did some forest O' at Tyler, and it apparently tracked 100% of the time - with a worst deviation from truth of ~20-something meters near one control. (She says she nailed it, but the 205 shows a small zig-zag :)
Speedy was planning some pine-forest testing...
By-the-way - doesn't anyone have a BiM phone ala Sprint-Sanyo for comparison?
To _try_ the Sprint-Sanyo combo you only need to do spend $10 (for a month), vs. $250-350 for the 205/305 (although I guess those are returnable.. :)
We tested Speedy's new 205 this weekend - first test - first went outside to get it started (it needed that outside part - startup in the house was working pretty slow.) We were tracking 9 satellites outside. Then went inside the house - still tracking 9. Then went inside an interior bathroom and closed the door - still tracking 9. Then went into an interior closet in the basement, and closed the door. And we were tracking 7 satellites.
One thing we noticed is that it does seem sensitive to the antenna position - the antenna is in the bent-over part that isn't part of the watch face - if that was pointed at the ground, it had a hard time hold 9 satellites outside. So may sure that when you are running, that part is mostly facing up much of the time (it doesn't have to be all the time... just don't point it at the ground.)
One minor drawback of the design, is that when you are looking at the display, the antenna is pointing sideways/slightly down, so the signal drops, and possibly some of the actual navigable stats (e.g. speed) get less reliable - but I think that was done so that when runnng, the antenna tends to point up...
Angelica did some forest O' at Tyler, and it apparently tracked 100% of the time - with a worst deviation from truth of ~20-something meters near one control. (She says she nailed it, but the 205 shows a small zig-zag :)
Speedy was planning some pine-forest testing...
By-the-way - doesn't anyone have a BiM phone ala Sprint-Sanyo for comparison?
To _try_ the Sprint-Sanyo combo you only need to do spend $10 (for a month), vs. $250-350 for the 205/305 (although I guess those are returnable.. :)
Mar 13, 2006 1:12 PM
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BTW, I like Big Basin, it's a wonderfull place for orienteering. Unfortunately, the map is NOT so good yet:))
Mar 13, 2006 1:38 PM
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I got an easy lock inside my house. And yes, I lost the lock because I was covering the antenna with my hand as I was fiddling with things. I was struggling during that part of the run & needed a diversion. :) I wanted to see my overall pace instead of what I had selected as a choice.
So far, I would say I prefer the new 205 since I can wear it on my wrist & get the excellent tracking. And the design isn't as dorky looking as the 301.
So far, I would say I prefer the new 205 since I can wear it on my wrist & get the excellent tracking. And the design isn't as dorky looking as the 301.
Mar 13, 2006 1:53 PM
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I would like to see track log of someone running a 1-2 mile forest path loop several (3-4) times.
Mar 13, 2006 3:40 PM
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No solutions (or comments) to the battery life problem for long events?
Mar 13, 2006 4:28 PM
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The Yahoo group GarminF has a very recent discussion on an extended battery source. This guy started it.
This may be another option.
This may be another option.
Mar 13, 2006 4:34 PM
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That is correct - the 205/305 has a different connection system... Hard to have the cradle attached and run with it at the same time...
Mar 14, 2006 7:13 PM
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Here is my blog at BiM Active Speedy.bimblogs.com. It's hard to see exact tracks and their discrepancy, but it's within 5m average and around 15m max in some areas (look for Absegami HS workout). I did test run with multiple loops on the same trails sometimes in opposite directions. Terrain varies from open fields to pine and/or mixed forest from "white" to "light green" with some "green" patches.
Mar 15, 2006 3:54 AM
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For mapping 15m @ 1:15000 = 1mm - noticable, but not horrible for items that are far apart. If lots of things close together are off by that much it would be a problem, but if a trail here and there are occasionally 1mm off, vs. absolutely perfect, that's not bad.
So for mapping, you may be able to run a trail network a few times, and/or a stream edge, and/or fence line, or other linear features that don't show up in whatever photos you have. Then you can use the tracks to get those lines pretty well layed out, but then local detail (possibly including improved trail/stream/fence bends) would still be mapped relative to the higher-level detail framework.
The good news is that the higher level detail has an absolute reference, so that as you stitch sections of map together, and/or add new map to the edge of an existing map, you shouldn't have any extra warping due to that.
The biggest concern would be getting to trusting, and trying to map point features, without double-checking then w.r.t. other local detail...
Any more experienced mappers out there think that the accuracy tested here is a problem?
So for mapping, you may be able to run a trail network a few times, and/or a stream edge, and/or fence line, or other linear features that don't show up in whatever photos you have. Then you can use the tracks to get those lines pretty well layed out, but then local detail (possibly including improved trail/stream/fence bends) would still be mapped relative to the higher-level detail framework.
The good news is that the higher level detail has an absolute reference, so that as you stitch sections of map together, and/or add new map to the edge of an existing map, you shouldn't have any extra warping due to that.
The biggest concern would be getting to trusting, and trying to map point features, without double-checking then w.r.t. other local detail...
Any more experienced mappers out there think that the accuracy tested here is a problem?
Mar 20, 2006 7:10 AM
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There seems to be no any easy way to view routes on own scanned o-maps using these garmin software. So I wrote a very simple script for this, it reads Training Center history file and writes out dxf files for Ocad and kml for Google Earth.
Here is some examples:
Yesterday (Sunday) Street-O (Minna's route, I could not run, sick):
http://www.routegadget.net/gps/fr205_streeto.gif
Blue line is warm up. Scanned map image was adjusted in Ocad using 4 points (2 countols and 2 crossroads). It is quite easy and fast to do with Ocad.
Other routes for Google Earth:
http://www.routegadget.net/gps/fr205.kmz
Let me know if you like to use the script.
Here is some examples:
Yesterday (Sunday) Street-O (Minna's route, I could not run, sick):
http://www.routegadget.net/gps/fr205_streeto.gif
Blue line is warm up. Scanned map image was adjusted in Ocad using 4 points (2 countols and 2 crossroads). It is quite easy and fast to do with Ocad.
Other routes for Google Earth:
http://www.routegadget.net/gps/fr205.kmz
Let me know if you like to use the script.
Mar 20, 2006 2:18 PM
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bubo:
Jagge: This certainly looks interesting. It looks as if you´ve run the same loop at least twice. What do you think of the accuracy of the GPS-track? You mentioned before that you wanted data from 3-4 runs of the same trail/forest loop.
I have made some GPS-studies with older 'hand-held' equipment (Magellan Sport Trak Pro & Magellan 330) on ski-tracks in Sweden. My impression is that there are (were) so many factors involved that measurements differ quite a lot on the same track from day to day. Good enough for a 25' or 50' map, but maybe not for 10.000.
I would be interested in knowing more about - and using - your script. I have just gone through my first test runs with a Forerunner 201 (borrowed from a colleague) and would like to see if this could be of any use in the future...
I have made some GPS-studies with older 'hand-held' equipment (Magellan Sport Trak Pro & Magellan 330) on ski-tracks in Sweden. My impression is that there are (were) so many factors involved that measurements differ quite a lot on the same track from day to day. Good enough for a 25' or 50' map, but maybe not for 10.000.
I would be interested in knowing more about - and using - your script. I have just gone through my first test runs with a Forerunner 201 (borrowed from a colleague) and would like to see if this could be of any use in the future...
Mar 20, 2006 3:48 PM
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Yes, I have run most paths at least twice. The acccuracy of Google satellite images may not be so good, better if I compare several runs against each other.
Now it looks like accuracy is usually about +- 15 m (30 m beetween two routes) in forest. The shape is usually good, so if I adjust route on course leg by leg using controls, it will fit quite well. But we'll see.
Now it looks like accuracy is usually about +- 15 m (30 m beetween two routes) in forest. The shape is usually good, so if I adjust route on course leg by leg using controls, it will fit quite well. But we'll see.
Mar 21, 2006 8:43 PM
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A bunch of guys in my club are looking to buy the 305 online. Anyone know the cheapest place to buy it?
Mar 21, 2006 9:08 PM
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LR:
I checked out Froogle and found $260 to be the lowest. Not sure how reputable some of the outfits are though. Most of the known suppliers are selling at $349.
Mar 21, 2006 11:46 PM
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I bought mine FR-205 at REI store for $250. And I was told that 305 model is delayed and they have no idea when they possibly can get them in stock. What is good about REI - I can return it at any time w/out headache. Still, I'm waiting for FR-305, but I test 205 right now.
Apr 19, 2006 5:21 AM
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To people who own one of the Garmin FR 205/305, does it feel bulky around your wrist when running/orienteering? I'm thinking about getting one of these high-tech gadgets, so I've been searching the last several days comparing the different brands and models out there.
On Garmin's product website it says it's a sleek, lightweight, form-fitting design. Maybe it's just an optical illusion for me, but from the pictures it looks kind of bulky.
Also, I notice the 205/305 doesn't record climbing data (altitude). Do you just wear a separate altimeter for that, or it that something not as important in post-race analysis?
Since I'm new to all these gadgets stuff, any comments would be greatly appreciated!
On Garmin's product website it says it's a sleek, lightweight, form-fitting design. Maybe it's just an optical illusion for me, but from the pictures it looks kind of bulky.
Also, I notice the 205/305 doesn't record climbing data (altitude). Do you just wear a separate altimeter for that, or it that something not as important in post-race analysis?
Since I'm new to all these gadgets stuff, any comments would be greatly appreciated!
Apr 19, 2006 1:43 PM
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If the track is good and you have a good map, you can get the altitude data from that (of course, it's more work, but at least the information is there). Most USGS/GPS programs do this automatically. The USGS elevation data (which is a separate data set based on, but distinct from the contour lines) is a bit rough, but OK for computing things like total climb.
Apr 19, 2006 2:10 PM
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It's really bigger than regular watch, but, after wearing Polar-625 for an year, it doesn't feel bulky and fits nicely around wrist.
As for the climb data, you have to use alternative options or post-race analysis.
But rather than that, I enjoy my FR-305 a lot.
As for the climb data, you have to use alternative options or post-race analysis.
But rather than that, I enjoy my FR-305 a lot.
May 27, 2006 2:56 AM
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So Jagge created a script to create kml files, so you can take your GPS tracks from your ForeRunner, open it in Google Earth, and then press Play to Fly Over your route. But then if your just flying over a bunch of trees, it's not that interesting. Unless you (a) scan your map, and (b), click on "New Image Overlay", (c) stretch/rotate it to line up with the ground and/or the GPS-track you've already openned, (d) then fly over it (possibly with Elevation exaggeration).
A partial example showing a map overlay view is here:
http://www.wyattriley.com/Maps/IronHillGearth.JPG
w/ the standard map drawn thing - the only value added is the nice 3D stretch of the 'paper'.
Can the first person who does GPS-tracks plus a map-overlay view post a link to that too? That could be pretty cool...
BTW, the KML file for this is http://www.wyattriley.com/Maps/PeterG_IronHill.kml so you should be able to save-as and open that in Google Earth and slide it around yourself.
A partial example showing a map overlay view is here:
http://www.wyattriley.com/Maps/IronHillGearth.JPG
w/ the standard map drawn thing - the only value added is the nice 3D stretch of the 'paper'.
Can the first person who does GPS-tracks plus a map-overlay view post a link to that too? That could be pretty cool...
BTW, the KML file for this is http://www.wyattriley.com/Maps/PeterG_IronHill.kml so you should be able to save-as and open that in Google Earth and slide it around yourself.
May 27, 2006 5:35 AM
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I have run with FR205 almost all of my races and O-trainings this spring. For safety reasons I keep the device while orienteering inside a sock, attached with three safety pins to back of my my o-shirt.
I have posted some of these links before, but here they are again. To see dot animations, push "view animation" and then "Start".
Finnish ultra long distance champs (last weekend, Jukola 2005 terrain):
http://www.kokkens.fi/reitit/06_alku/cgi-bin/reitt...
FinnSpring relay:
http://www.kokkens.fi/reitit/06_alku/cgi-bin/reitt...
FinnSpring:
http://www.kokkens.fi/reitit/06_alku/cgi-bin/reitt...
Saaristorastit WRE:
http://www.ykkosrasti.net/harveli/2006su/reitti.cg...
Sandis middle:
http://www.routegadget.net/kokkens2006/cgi-bin/rei...
My name is there twice, the other one is the drawn version of my route. You can also compare animations (drawn vs. gps).
You usually know very well where you have been, so route is not so useful - except for beginners. Also route choices can be compared quite well wiht traditional drawn routes and split times. But with gps you can see how the time was used inside a leg, and that is where the extra value of using gps will be.
I have posted some of these links before, but here they are again. To see dot animations, push "view animation" and then "Start".
Finnish ultra long distance champs (last weekend, Jukola 2005 terrain):
http://www.kokkens.fi/reitit/06_alku/cgi-bin/reitt...
FinnSpring relay:
http://www.kokkens.fi/reitit/06_alku/cgi-bin/reitt...
FinnSpring:
http://www.kokkens.fi/reitit/06_alku/cgi-bin/reitt...
Saaristorastit WRE:
http://www.ykkosrasti.net/harveli/2006su/reitti.cg...
Sandis middle:
http://www.routegadget.net/kokkens2006/cgi-bin/rei...
My name is there twice, the other one is the drawn version of my route. You can also compare animations (drawn vs. gps).
You usually know very well where you have been, so route is not so useful - except for beginners. Also route choices can be compared quite well wiht traditional drawn routes and split times. But with gps you can see how the time was used inside a leg, and that is where the extra value of using gps will be.
May 27, 2006 9:37 AM
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As you know, the accuracy of O maps and gps tracks are far from perfect. But if you take a look at the maps you can not find any bad errors. Here is some information how those gps routes are calibrated.
Jun 1, 2006 5:08 AM
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Jun 1, 2006 5:14 AM
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I have tried it out a fair bit. Being up to 15 metres out either way mightn't sound to bad. But the trouble is the errors are not gradual. The tracking with the GPS can be pretty good in a relative sense, and then suddenly you get a jump in location of 15 metres, presumably when a satellite drops out or into reception. So doing track logs becomes problematic. Is that track bend real or an artifact? And, you also need the base map to be in the same projection as that you are producing from the GPS. If you are using an old O map and upgrading, check the map carefully. While most maps I have tested are relatively accurate, they are often quite bad in an absolute sense. The worst i came across was 1:14,500 in one axis and close to 1:16000 in the other. No-one had ever noticed it when competing on the map. It was seen as a pretty good map. And it was, relatively speaking.
This discussion thread is closed.