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Discussion: Flying Pig 2009 Results

in: OCIN 25th Anniversary / Flying Pig XIII / Relay Champs (Apr 3–5, 2009 - Cincinnati, OH)

Apr 4, 2009 8:42 AM # 
Results from Friday

Splits by class from Friday
Apr 5, 2009 3:24 AM # 
Relay Team Results

Relay Splits by Course

These are very, very unofficial. This is our first time with the relay software, and although it worked essentially perfectly, we do have a few things to iron out. If you see something, I'd appreciate an email.

If you would like to correct a team name, I can't promise anything, but let me know.
Apr 5, 2009 12:50 PM # 
Sprint results will be available later on Sunday or on Monday. Three people didn't download, so we need to query the SI units, and also there was that problem with three units on the course programmed as starts—we'll see what we can do about that, probably not much.

The finish issue has been solved and splits will be available for those who did download, at the site today (Sunday).
Apr 5, 2009 2:58 PM # 
"Three people didn't download, so we need to query the SI units,"

Should not the result of a failure to download before the end of the competition be an automatic DQ?
Apr 5, 2009 5:37 PM # 
No kidding, seems like having to query all the units for those people is being a bit too kind.
Apr 5, 2009 5:50 PM # 
In my experience, the Flying Pig crew are always extremely kind and accommodating....

But seriously, there probably should be a rule that requires downloading. Back in the old days, if you didn't hand in your punch card, you would be DSQ (and also catch an earful from concerned organizers).
Apr 5, 2009 8:44 PM # 
One person didn't download due to the organizers' fault. The other two, don't think it was anyone else's fault. Because of that one person, it seems appropriate to query the units. Part of the problem is that we got kicked out of the place a bit too early, and could have operated on battery power but with another race looming in the afternoon (the Relay), we decided to shut down quite a bit before the last start + time limit. It is definitely our (the organizers') fault that we didn't catch the missing downloads before the start of the next race in the afternoon.
Apr 5, 2009 10:25 PM # 
One big error on the relay results.

The winning 8pt was DVOA, not "Channelview Purple and ABP".
Apr 6, 2009 2:07 AM # 
Sunday results:





OCIN Routegadget

And again, these are very unofficial.
Apr 6, 2009 2:46 AM # 
It appears that the relay routegadget is messed up. Is it impossible to enter routes?

You can see the forking there, but there are lots of extra lines. For example, on Red 8pt, there is a line from 1 to 4 that isn't supposed to be there.
Apr 6, 2009 4:16 AM # 
Are these results linked from anyplace else besides AP?
Apr 6, 2009 4:26 AM # 
Apr 6, 2009 4:29 AM # 
Hey Matt: What's up with the splits on control #199?
Apr 6, 2009 5:05 AM # 
We failed to program a 199 during the programming party. Between the party and Sunday, the computer, with an old operating system, automatically changed over to DST. So when we programmed it Sunday morning, it was an hour off. I'm hoping it's fixable.
Apr 6, 2009 5:46 AM # 
Sprint results (with splits)

Sorry about the Cyrillic, will fix soon. Gadget is to follow. Link is good for linking.
Apr 6, 2009 1:29 PM # 
Impressive: 5 out of the 17 runners on blue on Sunday were born in the US, while 9 out of 17 were born in Eastern Europe. (So the cyrillic might be appropriate :)
Apr 6, 2009 2:31 PM # 
For the relay, RG seems to only let you enter routes for the 'A' forks regardless of which fork you actually did.
Apr 6, 2009 3:24 PM # 
We've consulted with Jagge, and hope to get it working. Jagge says there is a way. Not sure when we'll have time, though.
Apr 6, 2009 4:04 PM # 
Courses were great - especially liked Green Middle and Sprint 2. Along with 2 major route choices, Green Long had subtle 'along the way' decisions that could save time. Relay - long time since I've run an Orange course.

Woods were more open than expected for the Pig. Hills weren't quite as bad as feared. Weather was fantastic.

Driving west Sunday - hit 2 hours of hard cold rain in Indiana - would that have made Sunday miserable!

Another great Pig weekend.
Apr 6, 2009 4:18 PM # 
VO2 Orienteering:
photos, pls!!! :)
Apr 6, 2009 4:42 PM # 
speedy took a bunch of photos at the relays so they should be coming when he has time to post them.

Enjoyed the weekend! Friday's early rain stopped by the time everyone went out, and Saturday and Sunday couldn't have been better. The courses were great and Friday dinner delicious! Thanks, OCIN and all helpers. Thanks too to the Parks employees for their support and activities for kids.
Apr 6, 2009 6:59 PM # 
Here are some pictures. They may tend to reflect a certain focus.
Apr 6, 2009 7:27 PM # 
cedarcreek, could you please correct the name of Channeling EMPO's third runner for the final Relay results? Katie Carey was originally scheduled to run, but Claudia Rivera (also of Channelview, HOC) actually ran on the Yellow leg for our team. Thanks!!
Apr 6, 2009 9:23 PM # 
lol why was our relay team name changed?

also, I saw a pro photographer in the woods; where are his photos going to be posted?
Apr 6, 2009 9:35 PM # 
I've corrected all the team names to that submitted on the form, but it might be awhile before it's updated online. It will happen eventually.

runit's team is correctly Star-T-Point, and, again, it will appear eventually.

If you see any errors please let me know here or by email. I'd like to spend time wisely and make one big correction. (I've been over the forms for team names, but not individual names.)
Apr 7, 2009 1:21 AM # 
More pictures can be found here.

As usually, please send me e-mail with list of pictures you like to get with full resolution (~2-3MB each).
Apr 7, 2009 2:22 AM # 
One way to fix the relay RG issue is to enter each variation as a separate course. The only big drawback there is to compare routes across variations you have to select 'all courses' and most likely the entire map will be covered by purple lines and circles. :)
Apr 7, 2009 2:31 AM # 
More pictures will be posted soon. We are getting a cd from Wayne Wauligman, who took photos on the relay. Greg Sack and I took photos in the woods which I also hope to get soon. It will probably be another day or two before we get everything linked from the OCIN home page.

Special thanks to all the volunteers who helped with the event. I would especially like to thank Cincinnati Parks for co-sponsoring the events and Bobbi Sack, a Cincinnati Parks Naturalist and OCIN volunteer for making the arrangements with Parks which saved OCIN over $1100 in facility fees, plus giving up three days of her vacation time to personally oversee the use and cleanup of the park lodges.
Apr 7, 2009 2:31 AM # 
Here's what Jagge wrote (I hope he doesn't mind):

Usually these races with forking are made using the mode with individual courses (courses are made out of controls codes in split time file). Only control's locations are used from course setting file. Courses in course setting file are not used at all.

In that mode course is not loaded when class is selected in RG. Course for each runner is loaded when load animation or load routes buttons are pressed. Some examples:

BAOC 2007-03-25 Briones - Golden Goat and Kid

BAOC 2009-03-29 Tilden - Golden Goat

Like this you can have what ever kind of forking or rogaine/score O.
Apr 7, 2009 3:34 AM # 
i have not seen any, but were there pics taken during the sprint?
Apr 7, 2009 3:41 AM # 
I took some pictures each day, including a few during the early part of the sprint. I'm working on uploading them somewhere, and will post a link when they're available for viewing.
Apr 7, 2009 3:57 AM # 
I'll be loading some pics (mostly relay) probably tomorrow. About half done sorting through them.
Apr 7, 2009 1:53 PM # 
I took a few as well. Sorry to keep you waiting but I have been overwhelmed with event cleanup and followup, plus organizing my taxes which I did not have time to do before the Pig.
Apr 7, 2009 3:02 PM # 
The Relay Routegadget seems to be working. I tested an animation where the runners were supposed to go to different forks, and they did.


Apparently the routegadget setup was to select "Create individual courses using SI csv control codes (butterflies, score orienteering, goats...)", and then, from Jagge:

You should be able select will runners be listed by class or by course. And select will it make own course for each runner (checkbox). If it's not there then upgrade is needed.

Note, you must have same control codes in condes/ocad file as in split time file. Including last control, finish etc (it makes course out of control codes in split time file and respective coordinates in course setting file).

And you can have only one start. So if you have two start places, you need to set it up twice, once for each start place.

(We're going to try to get away with not doing a separate setup for the Jr. Jr, with its different start location.)

(Big thanks to Pat Meehan (orunner) and Jagge for getting the routegadget set up.)
Apr 7, 2009 4:12 PM # 
Yup, it gives me the option of going to my fork now, thanks for fixing it!
Apr 7, 2009 6:10 PM # 
I just uploaded the Friday splits so that they can be claimed.
Apr 8, 2009 3:23 AM # 
I'm having trouble with the Relay upload. The file has no SI numbers in it. I'm working on it.


I got the relay upload to work, but I had to edit the .csv file in excel and put it in a format attackpoint could understand. I also had to generate a column of SI numbers so AP would recognize APers.

It just struck me though, that some people might not want relay splits entered. My thought was that it might help get more APers valid (AP) rankings.

I do have emails out to ken to fix some of the errors on the splits both for Sunday and the Relay due to my multiple attempts to get them right. I think I finally have good import files, but the old data might have to be deleted by ken. (And I didn't mean to enter the Jr. Jr.)
Apr 8, 2009 5:08 AM # 
Thanks to Vlad for his artful buildup of suspense among relay teams. Our MVOC team had some good runs, especially from the Svobodnys; but I have too much winter fat to seriously contend with other US Team members. It's hard hauling it all up almost half a kilometer.
Apr 8, 2009 8:36 AM # 
I fixed the Sprint results. They are final. I have not received protests or comments.

I have RG, WinSplits, and AP upload on my list for today.

Many apologies to GregB who ended up waking up 7 controls at the Sprint. This error on our part should not have happened, and is close to unforgivable.
Apr 8, 2009 10:59 AM # 
what does "waking up" mean ?
Apr 8, 2009 11:19 AM # 
The uploaded splits should be all good now.
Apr 8, 2009 11:44 AM # 
SI Units put themselves in a standby mode if they aren't punched for a while. The first person to punch takes the unit out of standby - it takes a few seconds, which may matter in a sprint.

Why does Balter always get hit with these sorts of things?
Apr 8, 2009 1:37 PM # 
sherpes---The old units have to be programmed to turn on and off at a specific time, in what is called "competition mode". For the new units, the factory recommends what is called "training mode" where the unit wakes up when it is punched (taking about 2 seconds), and then it responses normally (fast punches). It then turns off a set time after the last punch---often 2 hours. So each passing runner gets a fast punch, and the unit starts counting 2 hours again.

I have mixed feelings about the factory recommendation. So far I have gotten away with going "against factory advice" and using the new SI control units in the old manner. It's actually convenient because the units still work when someone punches them, even if it is outside the programmed time.

Especially for events with controls "way out there", we don't have volunteers to turn on the controls before the runners come through, and you either have to (1) force the first runner to turn on the control, which is a big hit to that runner's flow; (2) use the factory recommendation with a very long "on time" corresponding to your available volunteers and pre-runners, which seems to be a waste of battery beyond competition mode; or (3) you have to use competition mode, which works perfectly as long as you verify that programming finished. (When I go against factory advice, I often have to hit the "write" button twice because it errors out 84% through the process. This happens most often when changing the control number---If the last use was for stand 130, and you're reprogramming it to be 209, it will often error, and require a second click. If you're using it again for 130, it usually writes the first time.)


I also think the training mode recommendation is flawed because it sets more tasks to the organizers. If I'm putting out a sprint a few hours before the first start, I now have to:

Find the spot
Place the stand
Hang the flag
Snap in the SI box
Punch it with my SI dibber, which hopefully I remembered to bring with me

and then

Walk a few steps away and turn around to see if I forgot anything (like forgetting to hang the flag---I've done it).

If I forget my dibber, I can't turn it on, and now the competitors will. If I forget just one or two, that's probably a bigger hit to the competitor because either they don't notice and end up with a MP and DSQ, or they notice and stop---If they had a flow, it's gone.
Apr 8, 2009 2:10 PM # 
VO2 Orienteering:
That might happend to Logvin Andrei on the 2nd CP!!!
He started at 9.02 and was at the control, but it said that he MP! As long as, he was one of the first people, he might not wait for as long as it needs to wake up!

As I posted on my profile the advices for organizers, I would be short and I would say that if the system is done, you should collect the maps to make sure that runners did punch all the CPs, plus it would be a good idea to take start far from finish on sprint specially! Runners, who did not start yet, have adventage by seeing the last part of the course and CPs.
It is just few suggestions for future!
Apr 8, 2009 2:47 PM # 
so will there be a route gadget for the sprint?
Apr 8, 2009 3:04 PM # 
I actually do like the using the training mode for sprints and then having a pre-runner(s). All the problems with the SI boxes at the Pig Sprint would have been caught using a pre-runner, and the boxes would have been turned on as well. Assuming the pre-runner is reasonably quick, this doesn't add much lead time to the event setup (do you really want to be still hanging controls within 1/2 hour of the start?). It does, of course, require another volunteer, but you can usually find someone who just wants to do the course and isn't bothered by the extra 30 seconds or so of punch time.
Apr 8, 2009 3:08 PM # 
Orion4ik, we had an "ErrD" for Andrei on that control, which indeed indicates he didn't leave the fingerstick in long enough, and we reinstated him later, with apologies.

Runners, who did not start yet, have adventage by seeing the last part of the course and CPs.

I'd say that takes the fairness concept too far. If we were to follow the spirit of this suggestion, we'd never have spectator-friendly courses, because face it, at most U.S. Sprints the only spectators are the participants. It is up to the participants to keep up the spirit of fair play and to not familiarize themselves with the course excessively beforehand.

As to keeping the maps—we should have. We found out later that we did have punch records from the "non-functioning" controls. All competitors have been verified going through them. As a reminder to everyone, Rules say that if a unit does not work, the competitor is required to use the manual punch.

Cedarcreek says

I also think the training mode recommendation is flawed because it sets more tasks to the organizers.

This is exactly what happened. We were understaffed (for the purpose of using the training mode) and didn't have a pre-runner. For most controls, the two hours would have expired between the place/turn-on and the first runner coming through, or else we needed more control placers to be able to place them later, closer to the first starter. This seems like an overkill for an event of this size. We should be able to put on an event for 108 people with 6 staff.
Apr 8, 2009 3:47 PM # 
The Flying Pig Results Page at is almost completely filled in with the results. Some of the preliminary links above have disappeared as we removed old filenames.
Apr 8, 2009 4:44 PM # 
But you don't need a "prerunner." For sprints of this nature in a public park, it is entirely reasonable to put the units and flags out at the same time in the morning. Can't the person placing the control simply activate it? A prerunner seems redundant.
Apr 8, 2009 4:56 PM # 
Yes, can. Placed at 7 am. First runner at 9 am. Programmed for two hours awake. See problem?

Had I been more aware of the subtleties, I would have done it differently. I would not have let the person who programmed the controls do it, and I would have done it myself after having read the manual. I am really sorry for this and I hope that the benefit of having another person qualified to run e-punch outweighs the one-time difficulties.
Apr 8, 2009 5:13 PM # 
The Gadget is coming today (for those of you in North America). Just please, please hold on for a few more hours.
Apr 8, 2009 5:55 PM # 
Are you planning to add Champs eligibility information to the Relay results? If not, could you please send me information about which teams were eligible and which weren't?

For the USOF Records, this information is important. I would think Donna/ONA would appreciate it too.

Thanks to everyone in OCIN for a fine weekend of orienteering. And my legs thank you for the hill-training opportunity. :-)
Apr 8, 2009 6:50 PM # 
Gadget is up. The SI software I use exported the splits in a different format from what OE/MT use, but this format is accepted by RG; I am not sure if any functionality is lost. Please let me know right away/post here if anything appears to not be working.

The Long Sprint (Blue/Red) Control 8 is drawn at where it really was. I only moved the control to this, not previously fieldchecked, location on Thursday before the event, because the location at which the control was originally supposed to go had a major map problem, one not fixable on my time budget (objects 26 m off per Gmaps). It turned out this new location also had a problem, so my nicely balanced N of lake/S of lake leg turned out to heavily favor the N-of-lake option. (I put a sign at the start saying the control is farther to the N of the mapped location.)

I am surprised nobody apparently saw two of the winning routes. Granted, one was not so straightforward and the other one got basically killed by the shift of the control by the lake, but I was hoping someone would at least consider them.

The best route from ControlĀ 36 to ControlĀ 43, in my opinion, is to go R through the pavilion next to the start, climbing only one contour (up to the road just out of #36). The best route from #31 to #34, if ControlĀ 31 were indeed farther S, is to go S of the lake and then R of the apartment building, avoiding all of the green that GregB got so upset about.
Apr 8, 2009 8:24 PM # 
in the sprint route gadget, the little dot disappears at the first control.
Apr 8, 2009 8:38 PM # 
That's because there is a mismatch between the number of controls in the course file and the number of splits in the results file. RG does not handle this case.
Apr 8, 2009 8:55 PM # 
I did add extra zero splits so that the number of controls would match the number of splits. People are saving routes and everything seems to come out OK.
Apr 8, 2009 9:08 PM # 
I messed up the meter/pixel resolution. It is 0.626 m/pixel (I was shooting for 0.5, i.e. two pixels per meter). So, for example, pi's Sprint route is 2.82 km (there was also about 19 meters from the map issue point to the start triangle, not included in RG's calculations).
Apr 8, 2009 9:19 PM # 
The animation stops at control 2 when I try to view it.
Apr 8, 2009 9:28 PM # 
I see. I guess there won't be animation, but at least there are route lengths. I guess I should have massaged the splits in Excel to proportionally interpolate the speed on the missing splits. It anyone can tell me if there's a way to fix the issue after the routes have been entered, please do so.
Apr 8, 2009 9:34 PM # 
Oh, I found kilpailijat.txt on the server. I'll try to fix it.
Apr 8, 2009 10:56 PM # 
The animation stops at control 2 when I try to view it.

I fixed it. Colorful dots are running across my screen. In the future—Jagge, could the RG animation software please handle 0:00 splits a bit more gracefully? Maybe to insert 0:00 splits in place of malfunctioning units is not the correct solution, though.
Apr 9, 2009 1:52 AM # 
5 galleries with 650 photos are now available. These include photos of all races by Mike Minium, Pat Meehan, Wayne Wauligman and motion-sensing Stealth-cams in the forest. We are expecting to add an additional 250+ photos from Greg Sack soon.
Apr 9, 2009 3:28 AM # 
"motion-sensing Stealth-cams" - if it was a week ago, I'd assume Mike was joking. Now, I'm not certain whether to credit it or not.
Apr 9, 2009 3:41 AM # 
Here's my photos. Mike, these can be linked/added to OCIN's site as well.
Apr 9, 2009 3:53 AM # 
Jon, get with the program, dude.

There are now 892 photos in OCIN's Pig XIII galleries.
Apr 9, 2009 3:53 AM # 
Mike's motion-sensing Stealth-cam(s) have been used at past Pigs, so I'm not surprised.
Apr 9, 2009 4:16 AM # 
VO2 Orienteering:
Good memories! Thx MIke for the event, it was great one! I was so surprised during the long course- it was so much water at the CPs, thx!!! There are few small things, but in general super, I hope to be back next year, and prove that I can do better :) Good job, Mike and team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apr 9, 2009 5:37 PM # 
I added the shorter Sprints to AP and edited the leg lengths. I could not upload the whole split file as AP does not support the SplitsBrowser format. I have already asked the author of the software to provide the functionality to generate splits in the SportSoftware (OE/MT) format, and this function will be in the next release. He says support for English is also coming.
Apr 9, 2009 9:44 PM # 
"motion-sensing Stealth-cams"

I saw the one near the 3rd-ish to last control on Red on day 3 and waved to it, but I couldn't find that photo. =(
Apr 9, 2009 11:37 PM # 
OCIN's older cameras use 35mm film (when we bought them, digital versions were still very expensive). The ones we use also have a minimum re-setting time of 1 minute before they will take another shot. So either you were less than a minute after another competitor passed or it ran out of film before you got there.

The price of digital stealth-cams has come way down, so I might buy a new one or two before the next Pig.
Apr 10, 2009 5:38 AM # 
Almost 900 photos and still growing. Does anyone really have time to sift through that many pics?
Apr 11, 2009 12:39 PM # 
Almost 900? There are now over 1000 photos in OCIN's Pig XIII galleries. You can view them pretty quick if you are not still using dial-up! :-)
Apr 11, 2009 2:23 PM # 
ok, it's more like 1250 ;)
All the pictures I took are now included in OCIN's galleries. Captions will be added tonight so that it'll be easier to search for your own pictures.
Apr 12, 2009 7:28 PM # 
Please consider entering your routes on Routegadget. Especially for the relay, I'm interested in how people took different routes and in how the forks worked.

OCIN Routegadget

Try watching the animation with the mass start box unchecked. The mass start is identical, obviously, but the other three legs show some head-to-head racing. (The mass start courses are GreenA4pt, Orange8pt, and Orange12pt. 4pt goes GreenA, Orange, Green, Red; 8pt goes Orange, Yellow, Green, Red; and 12pt goes Orange, Yellow, Brown, Green. The only common course is Yellow. The other courses---the three Oranges and Greens, for example---are slightly different.)
Apr 12, 2009 9:11 PM # 
Route Gadget for the Team Fundraiser Sprint is on the US Team Route Gadget site instead of OCIN's. It is linked from Pig XIII Results Page.

Also, several articles of clothing were left at the event. Please take a look at the results page above for a list. These include a brown sweater and several hooded sweatshirts and jackets.
May 28, 2009 3:33 AM # 
Dear Orienteers,

Orienteering Cincinnati is currently experiencing some stress in our relationship with Cincinnati Parks, and had to cancel a local event on short notice, as a result of several incidents/complaints at Flying Pig XIII.

If you attended Pig XIII and have time to write a short letter stating how much you enjoyed orienteering in Cincinnati Parks (Mt Airy, McFarlan Woods, Burnet Woods), your appreciation for the parks, etc, it would be greatly appreciated. We will be meeting with several parks officials on June 8 or 9 and I will present any letters I receive. You can email (or snail mail) to me: Mike Minium, 6797 Stillwell Beckett Rd. Oxford, OH 45056-8870.

If you were among those who parked on the grass when paved parking areas filled up, a polite mention and apology for that might also help. (Although we observed no ruts or damage afterwards, the park manager was still irate)

Mentioning that you visited the Cincinnati area exclsively because of this event (and spent money at local hotels, restaurants, attractions) also would not hurt.

Mike Minium
May 28, 2009 7:57 AM # 
Frankly, if I had parked on the grass, I would just not mention it. As Mike pointed out, there was no damage, so why identify yourself?

IMO, concerns with off-pavement parking are often exaggerated, because grass areas next to roadways usually have a firmer base than fields or meadows. If anyone owes anyone else an apology it would be Cincinnati Parks for not providing enough parking relative to the capacity of their lodges.
May 28, 2009 8:36 AM # 
Frankly Mike, I don't think you should play it nice. I witnessed you being harrassed—screamed at—by a park official, a public official, who was abusing her position. These people are accountable to the public, the taxpayers who pay them. They then try to create little kingdoms from which they would like to exclude said public, or at least spit on them so that they may thoroughly enjoy the little power that they have. I am willing to write up exactly what I observed and submit the letter to that person's superior, Cincinnati City Government if need be. If I were you, I would also permanently exclude that person from club events.

P.S. yeah at least one of our wheels was on the grass at the Relay, and I am also sorry to mention I stepped on a few branches while on my runs, which probably disturbed a few earthworms and such. I am so sorry to these creatures.
May 28, 2009 9:36 AM # 
...If anyone owes anyone else an apology it would be Cincinnati Parks for not providing enough parking...

Nonsense. Do we really want more parkland paved over for more parking lots? Why shouldn't that official be damn mad? As a park user who wants more park and less parking, I appreciate her dedication. What is it about our "car culture" that refuses to accept the limits of all this driving? In my mind, parks should be completely pristine: no parking lots, no roads, no cars...just a big block of nature.

Orienteering clubs have a responsibility before a large event to responsibly plan for legal parking for all expected cars...even if this means renting remote parking and paying for expensive shuttles. It is not sufficient to put an afterthought into Meet Notes saying "Please car-pool" Doesn't hack it.

Mike went further than most clubs by publishing public transit instructions to each day's events on the OCIN website. Did anyone use them? Even for one event?
May 28, 2009 12:42 PM # 
OK... deep breath. Darn, didn't work.

Yes, I agree. In an effort to ensure that Cincinnati City Parks continue to be pristine, I will do my best to avoid showing up there in the future. I won't be the one to despoil their magnificence with the presence of my unwanted, meat eating, car driving, plane riding dirty self.
May 28, 2009 1:29 PM # 
The park official who screamed at me was caught between her role as an OCIN volunteer and as a very low level employee in the parks dept. As the go-between between OCIN and parks, she got caught in having to do many extra hours of duty, including losing vacation days to work at the Pig. I understand her frustration with an impossible position, which although vented at me, was directed at the whole situation.
May 28, 2009 1:56 PM # 
Well, then I'm with Clem... if this particular jurisdiction requires so much go-between action that a person would feel justified to scream at Mike for over an hour, let's respectfully opt not to deal with this jurisdiction. There's lots of terrain not so far mapped. Productive time is best spent on mapping it, rather than dealing with _s full of themselves. Call the money spent on remapping Mt. Airy a loss, and let's not throw good money and good time after bad.
May 28, 2009 2:14 PM # 
I think you guys might be giving up too easily. These sorts of misunderstandings occur all the time and it's certainly made worse when several indivduals on either side get emotionally involved. However, Mike has indicated that he wants to work it out and I, for one, will support him in that.

We had a similar situation in SLOC a few years back when one particular park official (one that we absolutely could not go around) got his hair up that we weren't fulfilling our duty as a non-profit because we didn't do enough stuff free to the public. It was very trying for our scheduling coordinator and the disagreement simmered for a year or so. However, with patience and persistence, she was able to turn the official around and we now have free use of several excellent parks and shelters in exchange for putting on two free clinics a year which they advertise. It's a win for everybody, but it took some doing to get there.

Having people like that on your club who can mend these fences is a real blessing. Do everything you can to encourage them.
May 28, 2009 2:25 PM # 
Eric: it is not so much that I think it is unproductive to given up on redressing whatever grievances the Cincinnati City Parks have, although it could well be. All US orienteering clubs seems to have access problems of some sort. I am quite sure that a little boycott by Vlad and me would not be effective. On the other hand, I will not be ashamed of the fact that I am a human being that happens to enjoy orienteering that may on occasion travel in the US or internationally to attend meets and do so in a way that is somewhat convenient for me.
May 28, 2009 2:55 PM # 
I'm with Eric on this. Nothing wrong with everyone's advise, but maybe less talk more action...
May 28, 2009 3:58 PM # 
We have had more than 25 years of good relations with Cincinnati Parks and I would suggest that our current problems stem from 2 to 4 really upset people within the department. Because of their central locations and large area, Cincinnati parks have been a mainstay of OCIN events, accounting for 4 of our regular local events in 2008 and 3 in 2007. They often have some of the highest attendance of local events. Additionally, orienteering programs offered thru the parks Nature Education department and our annual orienteering at the Cincinnati Great Outdoors Weekend generate many newcomers to the sport. We were also planning to have at least 3 of the 12 events in this summer's weekday evening sprint series in Cincinnati parks because of their central locations and reasonable terrain for sprints.

For those who only come to town for "A" events, it is easy to say that "you have many other areas you can use". But for those of us who must plan a regular schedule of events and want to use parks convenient to the local population (which also happen to have interesting terrain), it is important that we try to negotiate an agreement and keep relations friendly.
May 28, 2009 5:05 PM # 
Chitownclark: It is not nonsense that if a park has a facility that can accommodate, say 200 people, then their means of transport must also be accommodated.

Absent defined parking standards for meeting facilities, that is done by assuming a percentage of persons using automobiles, as well as an average auto occupancy, and calculating numbers of vehicles. Cyclists and pedestrians must also be accommodated by providing bike parking, road space for cyclists, and off-road walkways -- especially to/from bus stops.

As for pavement, its impacts can be reduced by utilizing permeable asphalt, or good old packed gravel.
May 28, 2009 6:20 PM # 
Did we exhaust the parking opportunities during the relay? I can't believe we filled all the lots on both the N-S road to the event center, and the 3 or 4 available lots on the E-W road to the north. Does anyone know? I would believe we (OCIN) didn't have appropriate signage and/or course notes to point out those additional lots.
May 28, 2009 7:48 PM # 
GuyO I didn't mean to pick on you specifically. Every time I've attended the Pig I've come by car too. So I'm indicting myself and my friends as much as anyone else. But at least we parked legally every time, even if it meant a walk of a mile or more to meet registration.

Contrary to your opinion, urban planners no longer arrange for 1:1 road space, parking and highway capacity...they found out long ago that doing so just encouraged "induced travel"...more and more car use. And the expanded facilities were obsolete before construction was even completed.

As concerned outdoor enthusiasts, I'd like to suggest that we orienteers do our part to respect each of our endangered, fragile, and overused mapped parks. How else can we abide by the motto of the International Orienteering Federation, and be " one with Nature?"
May 28, 2009 9:32 PM # 
At one with nature as a motto...
May 29, 2009 12:58 AM # 
As this is an orienteering forum, I am not going to debate transportation policy here. BTW, by profession I am a traffic / transportation engineer with NJ and national credentials.

The issue of parking in the parks really comes down to this: If Cinti Parks decides they are not going to accommodate sufficient vehicular parking for its facilities (by providing convenient parking spaces -- paved or otherwise), then they should be neither surprised nor upset when the overflow makes use of grassed areas.
May 29, 2009 7:14 AM # 
Nor should they be upset that someone ran through the freshly planted flowers (as was the complaint at Burnet).

When I scouted out the area on March 26th, there was no visible cultivation going on anywhere the courses went. When I subsequently visited the area two days before the event, I didn't have a chance to again go over the whole park. No out-of-bounds requests were given to us by the park in advance, as far as I know. I didn't see the flowers when placing the controls on the morning of the event, April 4th. They probably were on one of the approaches to the spectator control just W of the event center.

So quite possibly, requiring OCIN to submit a copy of the courses in advance is entierly reasonable and will help keep the relationship mutually respectful, at the expense of the club not being able to throw an event together at the last moment. If OCIN knows in advance of the out-of-bounds areas, it can make all efforts to design courses that would minimize the risk of someone entering these areas. Conversely, the park will not be able to apply its requirements retroactively.
May 29, 2009 11:44 AM # 
...then they should be neither surprised nor upset when the overflow makes use of grassed areas....Nor should they be upset that someone ran through the freshly planted flowers...

See? That's what I'm speaking about...rude and uncivilized behavior. Shouldn't we, as outdoor enthusiasts, be willing to inconvenience ourselves so that we all might enjoy a bit of nature?

Why shouldn't orienteers park in a distant lot instead of on a mowed lawn 20' from Registration, and in everyone's way for the next 3 hours? Why shouldn't orienteers run around a planted flower bed, no matter how close it may be to the Finish line? And why shouldn't we all condemn unmannered individuals who do not display such courtesies?
May 29, 2009 12:25 PM # 
Nothing pisses off a landowner more than being told that something "shouldn't" have happened. They already know that; that's why they are complaining. Assessing blame, even if some of it rightly falls on the landowner, is not the way to keep venues open.

The Libertarian in me wishes that people would be held accountable for their own actions, but that's simply not the way the world works. If we want access to these parks, we (meet directors) have to take more than our share of responsibility to see that landowner wishes are met and also have to be willing to take some heat and be humbly apologetic when things don't work out. Yes, relationships can get so bad that the only reasonable recourse is to walk away, but a lot can be saved by simply swallowing your pride and saying "I'm sorry." That appears to be the approach OCIN is attempting here and I think they deserve our backing.
May 29, 2009 9:27 PM # 
Mike, I thanked one of the park staff in person (at the event) for permitting us to use their beautiful parks for our event. Best of luck resolving the current difficulties. It sounds like the problems can be learned from and avoided in the future.
May 30, 2009 12:33 AM # 
I think Chitown seriously misquotes GuyO above by omitting a critical "if" clause ("If Cinti Parks decides they are not going to accommodate sufficient vehicular parking for its facilities (by providing convenient parking spaces -- paved or otherwise)"), before quoting the "then" part (re parking on the grass) well out of context. I think it is quite an overstatement to portray the complete quote as "rude and uncivilized behavior"
May 30, 2009 12:40 AM # 
What is "rude and uncivilized" about parking on grass? Orienteers are accustomed to it. At some events (see Saturday of "Ran It Granite"), ALL parking is on grass.

I'm sure OCIN will offer apologies where needed. I just hope they aren't reduced to crawling on their knees to Cincinnati Parks begging for forgiveness.
May 30, 2009 2:34 AM # 
Clark: It seems to me that you are taking a specific situation (which, IMHO, was a simple communications failure (either the grass parking was signed as illegal and people ignored the signage, or it was not signed as illegal and the park was regretting its signage failure and taking it out on Mike)), and turning it into an opportunity to proselytize your general life views outside the scope of the specific issue. Quite frankly, I a) disagree with your general views wholeheartedly, and b) find your taking this mis-fortunate opportunity to proselytize them inappropriate.

That out of the way, my simple opinion is, whether or not you agree with parking on the grass being generally or specifically illegal, please help Mike out and write to the park if you parked on the grass.

I, for one, don't feel I should inconvienece myself by not parking on the grass, as both experience and common sense has lead me to the conclusion that both myself and the grass has a 100% recovery from the incident. OTOH, if the park is specifically asking me not to, and I know of that request, I will honor it in the interest of goodwill going forward, despite my personal opinions (which will remain silent to the park people), of the sillyness of the request.

(Running thru flowers is a different issue, and I will always go around, as again experience and common sense in that case do not indicate a 100% recovery rate. I will also respect earthworks and the like where I feel 100% recovery is not likely (and I'll tell you, if the park people saw what I saw at the Fort Ancient meet several years ago, OCIN would be banned (at least from native American earthworks), for life, but that is a different kettle of fish entirely.

JMHO, of course.
May 30, 2009 5:45 AM # 
On the subject of historic earthworks in parks (yeah, we're way off topic now...), there are some of these at Vally Forge park that I've thought about quite a bit while running by them.

Extreme options are to
(a) let humans enjoy the park, see the earthworks, and even walk right over them if they chose, or
(b) keep all humans far away lest they degrade the earthworks

In both cases, you can try to educate people about the historically interesting nature of said earthworks.

In case (a), humans see them, walk on them, imagining they were in the footsteps of the people who built them, and tens of thousands of humans learn interesting things about the human history of those earthworks over the 50-200 years they last.

In case (b), the earthworks fade away due to forces of nature over, say, 100-1000 years, but none by a handful government selected experts ever gets to see them up close.

Which provides more historical/educational value to humans?

If you're trying to keep a bit of nature untouched by excluding humans, so that visiting it remains a truly pristine experience, exactly who is that experience being saved for?

Orienteers prancing through the terrain like deer seems like an awfully good optimization in the balance of preservation of nature for future humans, and enjoyment of nature by current humans.
May 30, 2009 5:53 AM # 
My wife & I really enjoyed running at the Mt. Airy park in the downtown Cincinnati area, and my kids really enjoyed the nature-facts-orienteering course set up by the Cincinnati Parks staff. We come to Cincinnati and stay for the weekend almost every year exclusively to enjoy the hospitality, parks and terrain offered by OCIN and the Cincinnati area parks...
- Wyatt Riley, member of 2009 US Orienteering Team, from Chesterbrook, PA

print, cut, paste...
Jun 1, 2009 1:08 PM # 
Correction: There weren't physical flowers, not on April 4th in Cincinnati. Best I understand it, there was a flower bed into which flowers had been just seeded days before the event. Orienteers had no way to know that. Parks didn't bother telling.
Jun 1, 2009 5:21 PM # 
Wyatt, could you please amend your signature? You are a member of the 2009 US Sr. Foot-O Team. How will the park people understand if you don't use the right terminology?

This discussion thread is closed.