Discussion: start times posted

Start times have been posted for this weekend's Buffalo Orienteering Festival. You can find the infomation here.

I am surprised to see that participants seem to have been given starts in the same quarter for each of the three races. And as far as I can see the quarters have not even been juggled.
It makes some sense to have the same start quarters for the two races in the same day but fairness dictates some flipping of start times should take place sometime in the weekend.
And I say that with full regard for the difficulty meet organizers have in meeting all the start time requests that come in.

Gord, you raise an interesting issue.
Is this still a problem when the events are scored separately?
Just out of curiosity, please explain the fairness benefits of shuffling the start list from one event to the other. Is it based on the assumption that later starters have an advantage over earlier starters because of herd paths?
FYI, I don't believe USOF has a rule to this effect, not that that means it isn't worth doing.

David,
If anyone gets froggy and reshuffles start times, we'd be grateful to keep the early starts for USMAOC members on Sunday - those will be much appreciated with the long drive back to the Academy and Graduation Week events starting that evening. Thanks - we're looking forward to the weekend!

Now, if I can just get my last few finals graded...

The benefit would be some combination of following (legally and illegally), which you don't get as much of if you are first starter (or always separated from those in your class); herd paths, if the vegetation and season allow them; and weather conditions (if the forecast is for hot weather).

Guys, Where is your logic to put all Ontario runners in the same time, if I want to run with them, I would run Thomass events!
Father and son are running every day in 2 minutes difference in the same group! is it normal??? I have to follow Hammer everyday!
from that list I see that organizers of Buffalo festival do not care about competitors and their believes; even if it is not in rules, use you imagination and think how many people would not come next year!

IF YOU WOULD NOT CHANGE START TIMES FOR MELITE GROUP, I WOULD NOT COME TO YOUR EVENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MIX PEOPLE AND MAKE THEM RUN IN BEGINNING, IN THE MIDDLE AND IN THE END OF THE GROUP START LIST!
IT IS AN OFFICIAL NOTE FROM ME!

PS: A LITTLE BIT RESPECT TO RUNNERS!!!

I certainly do not feel as strongly about it as Orion does. In fact I am disgusted by the anger and threat expressed there and sorry that I started something. The meet promises to be too good to be spoiled by that unwarranted rant. By finding three prime and different competition areas Buffalo OC has shown great respect for their competitors.
Yes, I believe later starters usually have an advantage over earlier ones and so even if the events are scored separately each participant should have a chance at a late start some time in the weekend.
But that is for another time. Changing the start list at this time would cause a lot more problems than it would solve. It would have been much better if I had raised the matter quietly with Dave and with our respective national competition committees after the meet. He doesn't need this headache now. I will just have to resolve to not keep looking over my shoulder for GlenT gaining on me!! :)

I always feel I have an advantage if I have an early start, since I don't get distracted by as many other runners.

I was going to voice the same opinion at Charlie, but I have gone to so few A meets in recent years that I didn't feel qualified to do so.

I always preferred starting earlier because of the "lack of distraction" consideration. So I'm not convinced that late starters are inherently advantaged over earlier starters.

Has anyone ever tried to gather data to support an advantage of one over the other?

And I agree with gordhun, changing the list at this time would cause no end of problems.

Orion, I'm sorry that you feel so strongly. As dcady has already noted, this issue could possibly have been handled better, BUT the Buffalo club does not regularly put on A-meets. (This is its first in over a decade!) And, as dcady has pointed out, there is no rule against this (or guideline suggesting the shuffling) - though perhaps there should be. Partly due to its inexperience, the Buffalo club has been checking the virtual binder continuously while organizing this meet - dcady in particular has been carrying a binder with a copy of the rules (I guess it's not virtual when he does this) with him everywhere for six months. You may recall a post about a month ago about control pick-up times; that was a result of our reading the rules and seeing a rule that we thought was not being observed. And, as Tori and others have pointed out, changing start times in a major way at this late date would create more problems than it would solve.

So, please express your anger at the rules - not the individuals, give constructive feedback to the club, and accept our best wishes for a good run.

FWIW, I have started "near" the same set of competitors at about half of the A-meets I've attended over the last two years. Now, I am far from elite, but it hasn't mattered to me. Perhaps things will work out for you this weekend.

P.S. Gord, thank you for raising this. The fact that the temperature got a bit too hot will likely help us - and others - put on better meets in the future.

Having been on the other end of considerable frustration regarding A Meets (and a huge personnel turnover every few years, so we make the same mistakes about every 5 years or so!), we've tried to capture "best practices" on our club's wiki. Do we have such a thing with the USOF virtual binder, and is there a means to update / add to it? Might be helpful for smaller clubs or those that have less depth of experience.

from http://www.us.orienteering.org/binder/rules.html#_...

13.1 + 35.1, 35.3, 35.6 fairness
13.2 what about top runners, they should run every start together.

Adventage could be not just in weather and path, but if the course gives the visial adventage, runners behind can see the runner in front and follow him or just using him/her to take the CP- use the runner as the attack point to the CP, using the direction he/she is running!

for all my orienterring life (12 years), I had never seen something like this start list!

PS: 13.3- says that organizers of Buffalo fest have at least 30 hours to change the start list! and it take around 3 minutes and a little bit of effort!

12.5 For an interval start other than finals of qualification race competitions, the starting order shall be drawn at random. The draw shall be made normally in three starting groups (early, middle, late).

http://www.orienteering.org/i3/index.php?/iof2006/...

ok, you have rules now, would you change the start times?

I agree this is not as interesting as having the start times mixed up. However i'm grateful for the Buffalo O Club for putting on the meet. It is nice to get in another A-meet before JWOC. Granted it might have been better training if i was more mixed in with the F-21+ and not always late but so be it. I will still get to talk to them about our course so that is fine.
Can't wait for the meet! see you all in the woods :)

If we are going to get specific, let's review:

13.1 states that the start order shall be determined by the Meet Director with the principle of fairness in mind. This has been adhered to, particularly when one considers that each race is separate. You may disagree, but at best that is your opinion.

The worst case that I can envision is that an error in judgment was made, but not that the rule was violated - that would require that the Meet Director did not attempt to be fair, a tough burden to prove.

35.1 states that all of us are to "demonstrate a high degree of fairness, a sporting attitude, a spirit of comradeship and honesty". We're trying. We thought that we had addressed the fairness issue; now we must choose between a set of options each of which could potentially create more unfairness to one party or another (e.g. changing start times in view of the fact that some competitors may already be "locked in" to travel plans). I won't comment on our sporting attitude, comradeship or honesty - that's for others to judge.

35.3 and 35.6 relate to competitor behavior on course (following and communicating respectively). While certain start groupings might make violations of those rules more likely, we were/are assuming (see 35.1) that competitors are honest. At the very least, the blame for any violations that occur there would seem to lie primarily with the competitor(s).

13.2 DOES NOT APPLY. We are not a US Championship event.

12.5 from the IOF also DOES NOT APPLY as we are not a WOC or JWOC event.


13.3 does apply (for a few more hours as of this posting); we could change the start times - as you point out. But, as 13.1 points out, that is the decision of the Meet Director, who is to keep fairness in mind. I know that he is following this discussion, but I won't speak for him. Either way, the fact that we are permitted to change the start times does not mandate that we do so.


For what it's worth, the woods were nice when I was vetting today. I predict fast winning times. Perhaps I will agree with a complaint that the courses were too fast once the results are in.

Tori

Your idea of putting best practices into a common repository is a great one. Since they would only be best practices and not official USOF rules, they could easily be amended and clubs could use those most appropriate to their needs. There are lots of little issues that are not rule-based that could be addressed in such a place. USMA probably has the most experience putting on lots of meets with little experience (given relative turnover, no other club could stay inexperienced for as long); I'd love to see your list. Of course, it's a bit late for this meet...

I just need to know if the meet director is going to change the start list at least for the elite male and at least for Saturday (middle and sprint), I can understand that people might need to leave earlier.

According to dlevine, Buffalo fest is not US championship, this meet is ignoring the IOF rules (WOC and JWOC rules just to show the level of the event), I can understant that this meet is just a meeting of old friends. I am really sorry for orienteering in Buffalo.

PS: if the courses are fast and vegetation is low, it means that runners, who will start later, would have adventage to see the earlier runners during the course, video CPs, and even the last CP, which is very common now to put after the start of 1st person and it would happen during all 3 races for same people. is it fair? does not it fair to give runners (start time is frist minutes for all 3 days) a chance to catch up another runners at least one race?

Dear Orion, do not make too much fuss: it is a first real A-meet by the club, I think a lot of people are over their had, fare play rules of orienteering do not apply to this meet, as mentioned above, the attitude is obviously: it is our way or high way. Do not get me started on $20 surcharge late fees. :)

I always thought about runners as customers, and customer is always right.

There is a significant advantage of starting behind same person 3 times in a row, let just stop at that. Since start times are published I do not think it shell be changed at this point.

We are most decidedly NOT ignoring IOF rules. But, the event is most definitely not a US Championship or a WOC or JWOC. We are not holding ourselves to the standards of those events.

Please understand, however, that the opinions I have expressed today are simply my own. Given the obvious time constraints I have not contacted other members of the club before posting and so should not be presumed to speak for the club.

I am deeply saddened that at least two people will be traveling a great distance to the meet and have already decided that we don't care about their experience. Orion and Greg, talk to me at the meet. If, after running, you feel that we have been deliberately unfair or inappropriately negligent in that we delivered a product other than that which was advertised, I will personally refund whatever portion of your entry fee you feel is due. My condition, however, is that you refrain from attacking the motives of the club or its members in this forum from this moment forward. [Note that once again, I am speaking personally and not for the club.]

13.1 states that the start order shall be determined by the Meet Director with the principle of fairness in mind. This has been adhered to, particularly when one considers that each race is separate. You may disagree, but at best that is your opinion.

There is a possible advantage that a strong runner, but a weak navigator, can derive from being started a few minutes ahead of a strong overall orienteer. Steps to minimize this advantage have not been taken, therefore it's hard to argue that the Meet Director had the principle of fairness in mind when assigning start times. I certainly hope it wasn't intentional; most event organizers' mistakes aren't intentional. We had a similar screw-up at the Flying Pig, stemming from manual assignment of start times.

In general the list of best practices should include random assignment of start times, something rarely done at U.S. events (but a feature that's readily present in most SportIdent-capable event software packages).

I am reluctant to chime in here, and I will try to avoid pedantry and citing a litany of rules, but... it appears as if "affiliated" runners are contiguous to one another in the start list in a way that would belie random seeding. And since this happens in every race during the weekend, it is reasonable to argue that this introduces unfairness.

In any case, I am looking forward to the weekend.

GregBalter, it is just so small thing like start list, which can be changed in 5 minutes, but we spent good portion of time for talking about anything.

And as a person with almost finished second BA on business, I would tell dlevine that if product advertized with mistakes, customers would never buy it. Agree with GregBalter, customer is always right.

I do not think it is fair to see both Logvins running together, I do not want to run with them and hammer all 3 days, we are not in Ontario. I would like to run with American runners and Ottawa juniors.
ok, still waiting for the last official comment from meet director about any changes.

...signing off from this discussion...

my offer to Orion and Greg still stands (though Orion pushed it a bit there)... they may imply that I do not think that "the customer is always right", but in their case, the customer will set the price so the valuation of the product ought to be perfect from their point of view.

ok, why is there a gap in elite male between 10.40 and 10.50 in the middle course?

Since this is no longer hypothetical (little late for should, could, would), and there is no way to please everyone, and the meet organizers are "damned if they do, damned if they don't," I would think a reasonable thing for Orion4ik and others who are not happy with a constant-across-multiple-races start list to do AT THIS POINT is to ask (nicely, as this goes a long way in life) the meet director, registrar, and/or start crew for new start times for one or more of the races.

By requesting specific start times, you would, of course, open yourself up to accusations of picking times that are (perceived to be) advantageous to yourself. So, ask for three "holes" in the start list, picked at random by the nice person who is helping you out. Take whatever is offered, without looking who is before/after you. Don't ask for other ones when you do find out who is before/after you. The Blue Course start window (for M-Elite) surely has plenty of empty slots, and (without studying it), I'm confident the Red (for F-Elite) does as well.

It's not a WRE, so the meet organizers have the flexibility to grant a common sense request like this.

Counter-argument: Only competitors who are worried (rightly or wrongly) about someone starting near them will ask for new start times, and by doing so, are gaining an advantage for themselves. Ok then, keep your start time as is.

Interestingly, you as the competitor now have the same "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma that the organizers have.

Bottomline, start some time and go run your own race. Enjoy the courses and maps and competition, regardless of who is or is not around you. I'll bet the race will come down to the fitness, skill and abilities of the runners, not their start times.

I agree totally with cmpbllj ... especially the last paragraph.

Dave,
It'll be a crazy few weeks (we're getting ready to move), but I'll look into capturing what we've got into a word doc that could then be used as a basis for collecting best practices. Much of it is USMA-specific, but I bet there are some ideas we could start to build off of.

Being a wiki-geek, I'd love to put it in a wiki accessible to all, but I don't have access to such a forum outside of the USMA-internal web, so that's of absolutely no help to anyone.

If anyone has suggestions on format / forum for collecting the aforementioned "best practices," I'm open to suggestions.

Tori,
if you like wikis so much why don't you just set up a wikispaces page? They are wonderful! I can tell you a bit more about them this weekend if you would like.

Allison,
Sure, sounds good! After we finish comparing course notes, of course! ;-)

The organizers of the Buffalo Orienteering Festival have been following this thread with interest. We especially appreciate the constructive suggestions that have been offered and look forward to incorporating them into our future events.

It was asked in the thread if the organizers would change the start list for one or both days.

The answer to that question is that the start list will stand as published.

However, when the list was published on Tuesday, we made an offer on our event website that even though the window for requests was closed that we would remain flexible to correct mistakes or deal with emergency situations.

If any competitor has a specific concern about their starting time, they should communicate directly with the registrar at festival@buffalo-orienteering.org.

I think the Buffalo club are doing an excellent job dealing with this issue at this point and I hope they realize the silent majority are very pleased to have a meet to go to this weekend.