Discussion: Bushranger 09 payments

Why is a system being used that charges a 5% fee (im using visa and im pretty sure they only charge 2%) and also requires me to print out and post in the CC details? Is the other 3% going the provider of the system? What did they actually provide?

The fee i could understand if all i had to do was type in my details!

It doesnt involve me but if i had a family would i need to make individuals entries for all the members...

why bother with online entries at all? Using smoke signals would be just as convenient.

I will be interested in a response to this one also Dave! Thanks for asking the questions?

I have worked out that it will actually cost me less to fill out a paper entry, be charged $5 for the privilege, and include a cheque.

Haven't previously come across a 5% credit card fee. What does Transition Zone charge - is it 2.5%?

Also, the Aust long champs alone cost $45. I've never paid that much before for an individual event!

I paid by direct transfer - no fee involved as far as I know, although the whole system dropped out on me before I could finalise my entry. Then when I got back in, it had somehow accepted my entry, but wouldn't let me view it.

I agree with Dave that the lack of a family/group entry sucks.

My limited understanding of the credit card companies is that the fee depends upon the turnover. There is no single fee for all providers. I have no idea of the details in this case. The easiest solution is .... don't pay by credit card. Pay by eft. I have a vague memory of being in an unofficial discussion of this and I argued for a discount for eft payment rather than any surcharge. Its all about the framing of the payment options.

The family issue.. you can make one payment to cover a number of family entries. My advice from the system was to use the descriptor Barr BGV. Sort of covers more than one person if you want it too.

As to the convenience, my guess is that the problem you face is you haven't got a login password yet and the deadline is rapidly approaching. I guess this because I was the organiser for an early test run for an event using this system. With a day to go I received a few complaints about needing to have a login and not having access to the internet (in one case via email?). There were some frustrations, mainly related to first time use of the system. The other really interesting thing was that a few regular late enterers were caught out be the inflexibility of the system closing on the cut-off date. I have mixed feelings about this. Ilka is OS at Swiss O-week, hasn't entered yet and has lost her mobile. I can't enter her because I don't have her log in.

So, agree with some of the frustrations. But i also want to persevere. The other side of the system shows itself for the event organiser. For the Vic Middle Champs it took me five minutes to download the entry data from the web site and have it into OE2003. That used to take hours and hours and hours. The task for the 2002 WMOC was mammoth. I'll be doing this task for the Oz long champs and I know I will love the system. I suppose the on-line system is sacrificing some competitor convenience (on first use) in exchange for massive increases in organiser convenience. You are faced with the question of a balance in trade-off between the two. I will say that the evidence is that on repeated use competitors are finding little inconvenience. Its just a case of getting that initial login code whilst playing chicken with closure dates that now are enforced.

Now, Jenny's claim to never have paid $45 for an individual event. Maybe. The cost of major events was one of the reasons I didn't sign up for the WMOC this year. I am actively disinterested in University campus sprint orienteering. The entry fee is $300. I get three races for that. Did my sums on accomodation, transport etc and decided I'd get much more joy buying a 1918 or so Gibson A-model mandolin. (Have a bid on one at the moment). The Oz Champs long event is less than half what the WMOC would have cost me for an event. I didn't enter the 2002 WMOC as I was course setting and control placing and control collecting etc. I imagine it was a similar high entry fee because of the tie up with the whole WMG thing. All that infrastructure and hoopla costs moolah. I'm hoping to go rock climbing instead.

And no, I'm not running in this years Oz long event. I'm in the finish tent all day. The weekend before clashes with a music camp, so I may miss that as well. But the mid week events are on my standard summer local running venue, so its very convenient. I did sign up for them. Can't miss that. I guarantee fast open running with sufficient navigational challenge in classic bendigo spur-gully.

I don't have any involvement in the financial side of the carnival (apart from collecting the OA levies). 5% sounds about right for the bank fees on credit card payments though - from memory it was something like 4.8 when I was VOA treasurer and I can't imagine it's gone down. Small-turnover operations (like us) pay through the nose - I don't know how much Transition Zone turns over but I'd guess it's in six (if not seven) figures.

NSW Rogaining started utilising Transition Zones services in 2006 for the Warrumbungles World Championships. No idea about their turnover. When I was invloved in 2006 they had a sliding scale of fees - % against se up for your organisationt and set up for the event.

Probably like very one else in that industry; variations on a theme.

I explored utilising Coolrunning Australia's services at that time as they used a service provided by the Royal Australian Life Saving organisation. A good cause but at 10% I could not impose my ethical choice upon the punters for 7WRC; already past $100.00 and heading to $120 if not more with that margin in place.

As people have said it is case of the punters getting used to the product as the product has significant benefits for volunteers. Stay close to your service provider after all if they are in business they should respond to any problems you may have.

A thought. How much labour and cost would be saved if your club+state assoc+nat assoc used the one service provider purchased under a competitve tender?

@TheInvisibleLog: I suppose the on-line system is sacrificing some competitor convenience (on first use) in exchange for massive increases in organiser convenience. You are faced with the question of a balance in trade-off between the two. I will say that the evidence is that on repeated use competitors are finding little inconvenience.

In that case perhaps the organisers* should offer a (one-time) discount for a competitor who hasn't used the system before to enter to encourage them to use it, rather than feeling like they are getting the shaft for the organisers' convenience.

* = Australian spelling in hono(u)r of an Australian thread.

I don't think that is the solution. The incovenience is suffered by those who leave it till the last days to register and are first time users. The best solution is an unadvertised 1 eek extension of the deadline for those who have not used the system before. Maybe advertise the extension after the official deadline has passed. The inconvenience arises from not anticipating the need to get a password through email (understandable) and a habit of last minute entry. I have been event secretary often enough to have limited sympathy for the latter problem, but I admit i am guilty of being late myself.
The general tendency of event organisers is to accept late entries, thus encouraging an expectation that this is the norm. The web entry system closes off on the advertised date. That can be very inconvenient, but I am less concerned about that.

Let's see... EFT = no surcharge.
Enter on time = no hassles.
Most likely it's the minority who are regular late payers or forgetful who are affected - and will consequently alter their behaviour or pay for the increased hassle of their late entries. As for a national system with one service provider - great idea, but everyone is aware how hard it is with a volunteer national body to get a co-ordinated approach?

Ok so i understand the 5% fee, my 2% thoughts came from my retail days. The point i was trying to make is why could a system be used that allows payment online without my having to print off and mail in the dets. Yes EFT is free and i would normally use it but im a bit tight for money at the moment.

The question over the multiple entries wasnt really answered though? Surely the organiseres noticed this when they agreed to use the system?

And those that think i might be complaining because i was doing it late, no im not, i registered some time ago...

No issue with the online payment - the more the better and also agree on late entry being a symptomatic attitude, encouraged by existing processes. My gripe (and I emailed the organisers!) was with not being able to enter more than one person per registration. I only had to do two, but families with kids need a rego for every member and then go through the whole process for each one. I understand you only have to register (each person) once but for non-Vics, this is probably the only time we will use it.

I agree we need to make life easier for organisers (we are doing NSW Champs right now - officially, entries close today!) but systems need to be convenient for competitors too. The OACT system works really well for competitors but I do not know of the benefits for organisers.

tha OACT setup (through TZ) was made for organisers. it couldn't be easier... pretty easy for competitors too!

Well I'm one of those leave it to the last minute types (in general life as well as orienteering) even though I've often been an organiser myself.

I just went online and my user registration was basically instantaneous.

Sure I had to do it twice, once for me and once for mapgirl but it was fairly painless as I just used home and work emails for the two different rego processes.

The only probs I could see was that It says you can use SI number if you don't have alternate email to register but what if you don't have alternate email or your own SI?

Also the Aus Middle Distance event didn't seem to offer AS classes yet the paper one does. Mapgirl just decided to run W40A (and probably pick up lucky last placing) so we avoided that issue as well.

As for the Credit card fees, that's just part of using other peoples money. Fortunately I have the luxury of not having to and have already sent payment via EFT from my work credit union less than 100m from my desk. Jeez it is convienient.

Overall I found this an easy way for me to enter (this time at least), but I suspect there is a charge built into entry fees to cover TZ fees but so long as it's reasonable I'm happy if it saves some poor sod endless keying. (so long as it actually does)

See you lot there - it should be a great week.

PS - Lazydave, it wasn't these fees that made your head spin the other day wasit? Hope it's all better now.

no leepback it was the fact that an online entry system required me to print out and post something in. I just started off with the fee - as i said in my last post i now understand the fee but still think it should cover a full net based system.

Ive used systems in the past that
a) dont require a complicated log in system
b) allow mulitple people to enter at once (im still trying to figure why this never considered)
c) allow CC payment methods employed in the 21st century.

The paper entry form didn't include B classes (but these have now been added); and offered AS classes by accident for the AMDC when middle distance isn't actually meant to have AS.

Yes - I noticed later that the AS weren't on the classes page and no they don't make much sense in a middle distance event.

I also noticed the online entry for the ACT events the next week asks up front how many people on this entry and then gives you enough fields to enter everyone.

Actually all these are well in advance of the email entry form I employed for NSW QB111 this year. It was free but really dodgy (probably half my fault). Luckily we only had a couple of lots of money but no matching entry. We worked out who they were fairly quickly. (That's ok when you have a fairly good knowledge of who might be the likley suspects but that's not always possible.)

I was really worried we have people front that we hadn't got entries for.

I think the system that Vic are using is the same company that has been used for the Sydney world Masters games which is also clumsy in not allowing more than one entry per payment. This has caused some work for overseas big group entries that have negotiated for volunteers at SWMGOC to entry the details for all the big groups and then accept a one off payment thus not really using the online system at all! ummm!
Also I take issue with the Invisible log over the WMOC entry
1. charge is out of the organisers hands and had to include IOF fee(30 euro per person)
2. There are five events for the total cost plus a model. So cost per event averages 55 per event yes more than normal but what did you pay for your last round of golf?
and it has been a particularly poor response from Australian orienteers ....Shame!

Hilary

No company involved. The Victorian entry system was written by a Bendigo club member, Matt Schepisi. I suspect the reason for the single entry per login is to maintain a flat form data structure. The web site allows organisers to log in and download a file that can be immediately imported into OE2003. No farting around in excel or some other spreadsheet to re-structure it.

I understand fully that in the case of WMOC prices are out of the organisers hands. I didn't attribute any blame in what I wrote to the orienteering organisers, merely made a comparison after a criticism of the Australian Champs entry fee. You have levies here there and everywhere. Everyone else wants their chop without taking any risk. The same thing happened down here in 2002. We had the some level of reaction to entry prices. Fortunately for us, our event was in the beginnings of an economic bubble. Yours is not. My understanding of the pricing of the Victorian event is that the club decided that if everyone else was applying a levy, then the club would as well and we would see where it led. This attitude can be traced to the general limited enthusiasm for organising this years carnival. You should have seen the Victorian clubs manouvering to avoid the Oz Champs responsibility when it came time allocate events. Bendigo was to a degree last out of the blocks. It was all that was left. I expect we will see the same degree of enthusiasm for major events in NSW post 2009. Its an inevitable hangover from what you are goin through.

The money was not the precipitating factor in my own decision about WMG, but just one of many. I am not deeply interested in urban sprint events. Not just me. Some locals from Bendigo are driving up for just the qualifications and the final at Lithgow. So that calculation about cost per entry was from a personal perspective. The WMG structure means I don't have the option of only choosing the orienteering events that interest me, or am i misinformed. Again not the organisers fault. Its the WMG pricing structure that you are forced to live with. For me, I found it hard to get excited about another complicated holiday. Work was not conveniently adjusting. I further still feel ambivalent about WMG events after 2002. Further again, no-one else in our family is attending. It's a very personal reaction related to all of these matters. I don't want to feel shame about this and feel disappointed that you think I (and others) should. But I can see where you are coming from. I hope you make your break even attendance. Or does WMG cover you in the case of a shortfall.

My last round of golf was about $10 on Spring Gully public course about 8 years ago. I am so parsomonious I choose to play on sandscrape courses. Actually, on a Saturday its all an occasional golfer can get onto. Silly game anyway. Someone will have to pay me to play next time.

I found the new system pretty good -- and like leepback i got my registrations done instantly. We considered this system for easter twenty10, but in the end went with transitionzone -- because they handle all the payment -- credit card only -- and give it to us in one hit at the end. And their data slots straight into MT2003.

Entries for the WMG are very near to the 2002 games entries with the same or near the same entries from overseas as in 2002. Last look came in at about 1200. But the Australians and the NZ have had a definite reduction on the 2002 entry. So the economic downturn has not affected overseas entries in fact, we have more Brits and more Russians. So they don't seem to be affected adversely. Anyhow should be a great event this year.
What really annoys me is that I see some Aussies (not many) who complain about the fee structure but don't think twice about going to Scotland and competing in the 6 days and paying all the attendant costs but cant seem to find the money to come to a world masters champs in their own state!

By the way found the Aus champs entry system pretty easy.

I don't think money comes into it very much. While orienteers generally are a tight-fisted bunch, when it comes to their sport there are virtually no spending limits.

It is the timing of WMOC and the Aus Champs Carnival that is a problem for many people. In 2002, the WMOC commenced immediately after the Australian Champs, and OA/OASA changed the Champs schedule to accommodate WMOC.

Many people can only get 1-2 weeks away, usually coinciding with school holidays, and therefore they would probably choose the Australian Champs over WMOC. In my case it was a no-brainer, since my wife can only get one week off work, and going to Victoria gives her a chance to catch up with family.

I wouldn't mind betting that the international entry would also be even higher if the program was more compressed.

Ideally, the Australian Champs/WMOC events would have all been in a two-week period to maximise entries, both domestic and international.

Very interesting thread. May I first say that as a person from away I found it strange and a bit frustrating to have to get a login name and password to enter an orienteering event but I got through it. As to the surcharge, EFT may be free for Australians but my bank charges me $25 Canadian for anything going out of the country and doesn't guarantee delivery. VISA was a good option and I didn't mind the 5% at all. However in Canada organizers generally build their credit card fee costs in to the entry fee paid by all. The credit card payment beats dealing with a lot of bounced cheques from those who find themselves a 'little short at the moment'.
Now to the WMG. I have been to all of the WMG and will be at Sydney. It doesn't matter where the games are being held you will find locals who bitch about the cost of the entry fee.
In Portland local triathletes boycotted the WMG triathlon saying why shoud they pay $150 to do a triathlon in the same lake where they normally pay $40.
Of course it is expensive. You are not just buying an orienteering entry you are buying in to a world games experience, a celebration of life and living for the older crowd, yadda yadda. Enjoy the Games as more than just an orienteering event. Embrace the chance to meet with athletes from other sports. As well as IOF fees Sydney probably had to pay a lot to WMG just to host the event. I heard the fee for Edmonton was $1 Million US.
For us travelling a great distance to participate the entry fee is a minimal issue. Greater monies will be expended for air fares, hotels, car rentals and meals. The entry fees are no big deal. I know time available can be an issue. In 1994 I could only get away for two weeks for the WMG in Brisbane where I did orienteering golf and triathlon.
Now my wife is retired and I have a lot of flexibility so we will be enjoying a month in Australia. Together we will probably spend $10,000 Cdn. As I said the WMG entry fees (and the fees for Q'land, Bushranger and ACT) are no big deal.
Edmonton overcame some of that local price resistance by offering a discount for Alberta residents and justifying it by the fact that the Province of Alberta and the city were major sponsors of the event. The locals were paying in their taxes for the discount they got in their fees. Did Sydney and NSW consider the same? I guess it didn't matter. They still got 28,000 entries.

Hi all. We would just like to clarify some issues raised on this thread.

1) Fees and Charges
OEE2009 is currently 100% free to use. Event organisers pay nothing to use it. In return they get not only entries files that import seamlessly into OE2003 but also files that build to OE2003 achieve as well, to speed Enter-On-the-Day competitors.

The 5% credit card fee is being charged by the event organisers (Orienteering Victoria). The reason for mailing in the form is because that is the only way OV can accept those payments.

Online credit card gateways, whilst obviously being convenient, do cost money to use. The offering of online payments is a direction we will be looking towards in the future but will depend on the level of support received from state/national bodies, the orienteering community, as well as amount of use the site receives. As someone mentioned gateways become cheaper to run the more they are used.

2) Visibility of entires
Your entries made through the system to all events are visible to you 24hrs a day.

3) Nationwide Scope (and beyond)
OEE2009 is not just available in Victoria. OEE2009 is open to anyone organising an event anywhere worldwide. Orienteering Victoria have embraced the system for their State League this year. This has saved organisers from hours of volunteer work, given competitors higher quality maps, and saved competitor?s valuable time by not having to fill out personal details over and over again at each event they enter.

4) System Access
OEE2009 does not use usernames or login names. No one wants to have to remember another username. Instead your email address is used as that is hard to forget. The use of ones SI Card number was added for even further convenience. If you don't have either of these, other options are available as detailed on the site.

We would like to thank everyone for all feedback and praise we have received. Many people are delighted with the ease of use of the system and the time it has saved them as both competitors and organisers. It must always be mentioned that OEE2009 is also still very much a system in its infancy with much more potential ahead.