Discussion: Quick results

And Congrats to you MrPither on the sweep of sprint, middle and long.
Along with Stephen, Manitoba takes 4 of the 9 men's elite medals. Bet not many people would have predicted that 5 years ago. Wonderful for Manitoba and Canada.

Now bring back the Jets!

Sep 1, 2009 12:40 AM #

Who are the Jets?

Sep 1, 2009 12:53 AM #

AZ:

Doesn't anybody watch "West Side Story" anymore?

Sep 1, 2009 1:01 AM #

AZ:

I was IOF Event Advisor for the Sprint & Long. I have lots of admiration for the very small group of volunteers that worked with such energy and grace to host this event. I have just as much admiration for the competitors who took on these challenging courses and took part with such good spirits and sportsmanship.

I'd like to relate two quick stories from the event. First, a story from Charlotte. She was running with Nick Ducca when she tripped and fell. Nick says "Charlotte, do I need to do a Thierry?"

The second story - my personal favorite moment. The Manitoba organizers worked hard to have a great arena with spectator legs and an announcer and radio controls giving intermediate times from the forest. All this paid off in spades as Patrick reached the pre-warning control and the speaker was able to announce that Patrick Goeres was entering the arena, and that he was about to win his third Gold medal at the Canadian Champs. It was a surprisingly electric moment as everyone in the crowd cheered Patrick long the finish chute, and Patrick ran in with a champions smile. It was almost as if we were at a "real" sports event ;-)

Sep 1, 2009 1:28 AM #

charm:

It was a fantastic 10 days of orienteering. Thank you to all the volunteers. It was a very very smooth event - wow! The competition arenas were fabulous. Three cheers to the Manitoba orienteering community!

Sep 1, 2009 2:00 AM #

GOUGER:

I was lucky enough to be the announcer for Patrick's victory run down the shoot on sunday. So cool to have the weekend end like that:)

I remember seeing Patrick at the first couple meets he attended in '03 (or was it '04?). People kept saying "this kid seems really in to it". No one sould of forseen that in a little over 5 years he has become a truly great orienteer and the best in North America. Makes us all smile!

I was more than a bit nervous to see how people would handle my courses in the S and M, but the RWT were pretty much bang on:) Yeah for me. I think the map allowed me to design a technical course with some fun legs. Adrian helped a great deal with my sprint courses, and helped shaped the arena and layout greatly.

The success of the event actually started almost 2.5 years ago when Dave and I went on a quest to look for a new map....then hiring mappers....then the real adventure began.

Thanks everyone for the kind words and support that allowed this truly special event to happen. Only bitter part for me is that less than 150 people were able to take part :(

Sep 1, 2009 2:43 AM #

Jets = former NHL team Winnipeg Jets

Sep 1, 2009 3:30 AM #

That is what I thought, but knowing Hammer I thought they were another hockey team that wouldn't end up in Hamilton.

Sep 1, 2009 3:35 AM #

cwalker:

Yes, thanks to all the organizers and volunteers! It was such a fun weekend. And the arenas worked so well. I'm really not ready for the summer orienteering season to be over!

Sep 2, 2009 2:29 PM #

gordhun:

cj you are now in Vancouver? Don't worry about the summer orienteering season being over. Summer never really ends in Vancouver but then again it never really starts there, either.

Sep 2, 2009 10:30 PM #

Sorry, but I still have a problem with referring to the event center / assembly area / finish as an "arena". The JWOC Sprint ended on a track with a large grandstand, which is about the closest thing to an actual arena I have encountered at an O-event.

Sep 2, 2009 11:05 PM #

pi:

You seem to lack some imagination...

Sep 3, 2009 4:09 AM #

AZ:

I guess I must have missed some discussion about the word "arena"?

I think the word is being used more frequently as orienteering evolves and changes what used to be a fairly dull "assembly area" into a more exciting, entertaining "arena" through the use of PA systems, announcing, intermediate times from the forest, spectator legs, JumboTron TVs (for those with the big budgets), music, internet, seeded start lists, and who can imagine what they'll have thought of next year.

Sure, the concept of "arena" takes a bit of a change in mindset and a lot of work on the part of organizers and course planners. I believe "arena" is the word to use if you are going to put in the effort to have all those cool things.

Sep 3, 2009 5:21 AM #

Thinking of a field full of people, colorful tents and results displays in the same terms as an enclosed structure designed for sports and concerts sounds more like delusion than imagination. ;-)

Given the open air nature of an O-event arena, "stadium" might be a better fit -- but probably a tad grandiose.

That said, unless we can coin a unique, but attractive, orienteering term -- like reentrant -- "arena" will have to suffice.

BTW, AZ, how do seeded start lists fit into it?

Sep 3, 2009 12:14 PM #

wordnet seach 3.0 includes this term for arena

(n) arena, scene of action (a playing field where sports events take place)

Great to see that more clubs are spending the time to develop a participant and family friendly arena at North American orienteering races. The reason GHO provided all participants at the 2006 NAOC with our free chairs ('priority seating') was to start to move away from the North American standard of "hang out at your car, wait for your start time, finish to the applause of three of four officials, drink, and take bus back to your car to see your results" kinda day. We kinda figured give people a chair and have them sit by the finish line with music and results and yummy burgers and a great announcer (the awesome weather helped). So good on Manitoba for doing the same.

So when I see the term arena I think that the club has done something better than that all too common dull atmosphere.

For next year's GLOF in Hamilton we will be developing an arena that will be used for ALL four races and will also have lodging within 50m of the finish line and the start line of a few of the races as well (and a climbing wall and ropes course for the kids).

Sep 3, 2009 12:42 PM #

AZ:

Or m-w.com...
an enclosed area used for public entertainment

Seeded start lists let you create those magic moments such as Tim & I described above: Patrick running up the finish chute to win the COC Long M21E, being cheered on by a large crowd - and allow us to make this moment pretty much the last thing that happened during the COC week.

By seeding the start list you can control, to within a few minutes depending on who wins, when the winner will arrive in the arena. So, for example, at the COC events we took the top 10 runners in each of M21E, W21E, and M17-20 and created a "Red Group". We then figured at what time we wanted to be able to announce the winners of those categories, and then worked backwards assigning the Red Group start time block in such a way that the winner (if we were accurate with our winning times) would finish when we wanted.

So the arena had a nice flow... first it was peaceful and empty as everyone was running their races. Then the non-elite categories started to finish (and we were able to call out their names and current placings over the PA system). Then the arena started to fill up, and we started to focus the announcing more on the intermediate times of the elite classes. Then the M17-20 race reached its climax. About 15 minutes after that the W21E race too reached its climax. And then finally, about 15 minutes after that the M21E race was done too. A quick set of awards and everyone left the arena and headed home.

That at least was the plan. I think we did a pretty good job of pulling this off, and I would say it was very entertaining. In other words we used this enclosed area for public entertainment ;-)

Sep 3, 2009 3:15 PM #

MrPither:

Using an existing non-orienteering word is a huge plus in my mind. A new, unrecognizable geeky word is the last thing we need in our sport.

The arena worked great this weekend! One small improvement could be made if people hung out at the arena prior to their start as well. There was still a lot of hanging out at cars before the race.

Ideally, the arena is on the way to the start from your car. You have to go there, drop off your bag, then carry on to your start. Logistics don't always allow that of course, but it forces people to settle into their spot at the arena at the start of the day -especially in North America where it's a relatively new idea.

Sep 3, 2009 3:26 PM #

IMO, the closer the "arena" is to parking, the more likely people are to hang out at the arena than at their cars.

BTW, MrPither, I, for one, think of orienteering's "geekiness" as part of its appeal.

Sep 3, 2009 3:34 PM #

Bash:

While I am proud to be a geek myself, "geekiness" is a lousy marketing strategy.

Sep 3, 2009 3:37 PM #

AZ:

Sorry GuyO - have to disagree strongly about that one. If the car parking is close, people will go back to their cars even if they intend it to be "just for a short while". If the parking is far, and if people are encouraged to bring their "priority seating" and if they are confident the arena will have all they want, then they will come prepared and will stay at the arena. Case study is last year's COCs in Saskatchewan - huge walk from parking to arena, loads of people at the arena. Even this year's COC Sprint - long walk to arena, plus everyone was sent into quaratine 15 minutes before the first start so they had to be prepared.

At this year's COC Middle & Long the parking was close to the arena and people drifted off to the cars to change. Then they come back eventually, but the problem is that often people start to congregate at the cars and the atmosphere in the arena suffers. Why not bring all your stuff to the arena, change there (using appropriate sized towels for decency ;-), and do all your socializing while watching and cheering the other runners. Way more fun for everyone.

Anyway, I think the key thing is to convince people that they need to get away from the "hanging out in the parking lot" mind-set. And that is a tough nut to crack ;-)

Sep 3, 2009 3:38 PM #

AZ:

oh yeah, I forgot to mention the quarantine aspect of the arena production.

For the COC Sprint this year we had high visibility of the course to add to the entertainment, so everyone had to be in quarantine before the race. Some people had to wait for up to an hour before their starts, but I didn't hear any complaining, and in fact the quarantine area seemed to have quite a good atmosphere

Sep 3, 2009 3:49 PM #

Was the sprint quarantine for elites only or ALL categories? The red group idea is excellent and should be encouraged more.

Sep 3, 2009 4:06 PM #

AZ:

It was for all categories. I was worried that we'd face resistance, but everyone went into quarantine, and as I say, I think they kind of enjoyed it there. Could have done with one more biffy though ;-)

Sep 3, 2009 4:17 PM #

VO2 Orienteering:

I do not think that the red group is so great idea, if you have 15 runners in Elite group. As a person who did not make the red group for middle and long, I would like to know how it was formed, what results and ranking were used. I were injured during the middle course and could not finish middle and long, but i would say that it was fun to make trails on the fields, at least for first half of the courses. But in general, i had lots of fun and trainings.

Sep 3, 2009 4:25 PM #

AZ:

The Red Group was based on the IOF World Rankings and on the Canadian Rankings. Only those eligible for the championship were included (includes Orion4ik). Some fast non-eligible runners were not included. We felt we wanted to highlight the championship which is why we made this decision. Orion4ik was in the Sprint Red Group I believe, but was bumped by Nick D. for the middle & long. I think Orion4ik was the only one close to the "bubble" and in retrospect it would have been smart to increase the Red Group by one person since his ranking is very close to the others.

Sep 3, 2009 5:49 PM #

I'm with Pither, and others here.

Re: geekiness. Geeky is as geeky does. All things being equal, if you want good athletes, I think you want less geekiness. I want good athletes. If you want maximum geekiness, there is always Trail-O. (Sorry.)

I like the idea of a red start group, but, I wonder about the impact of following. I think go will tend to get more pack running when competitors of similar abilities start contiguously.

I also like the idea of an arena. When I was doing the 2006 SS Finals, I was pushing for the idea of an arena for the final which people would walk to. Not a long walk. But, I received significant pushback from someone I respect a lot who made the point that Americans are wedded to the carpark congregation. I didn't think it was worth arguing over, and I kind of caved.

I am all for encouraging this concept. It clearly works in Europe. But, Europe has also inculcated this practice over years. It is ingrained. Here, as the point was made, it is "foreign." And, perhaps hard to justify. There they have vendors, club tents, etc., famous orienteers, and a big field. How many of those things do we have here? I know we want all those things, and this is a step in that direction. But, how much fun is it to stand around in a field waiting for the outcome of a race where realistically very few of the red group is in the running to win? And what if it rains? You convince people to go along with this and then get subjected to bad weather... the next time will be a much harder sell.

Anyway, apologies for a perhaps too severe view of things.

Sep 3, 2009 6:04 PM #

mikeminium:

Quarantine area: As one of the latest starters, I was initially a little annoyed / apprehensive about having to be in the quarantine area more than an hour before my start. It proved to be a not-unpleasant wait as the weather was comfortable and there was adequate shade and water and adequate (barely) privacy for last-minute bathroom breaks. The one portable loo was at capacity for the small number of people at this event - - if you wanted to use it, you had to anticipate and get in line well ahead of time. I think there would have been considerably more discomfort and complaining if the weather had been rainy, excessively hot, or buggy. In this case, with good conditions, and a small number of participants, it worked acceptably well. I would have to say I wouldn't mind doing this for rare special championship events, but it would quickly become tiresome if quarantine zones were used too frequently, and when not absolutely necessary.

Sep 3, 2009 6:25 PM #

Joe:

"If you want maximum geekiness, there is always Trail-O. (Sorry.) "

Or worse, Radio O.

Sep 3, 2009 6:31 PM #

Well, yes, there is that. You can call it ARDF if you want.

If anyone can make Radio O cool, CSU can.

Sep 3, 2009 7:13 PM #

pi:

Come on j-man, cheer up! All we have to do is show them how it is done and they will change. They will have fun at the arena and they will see the light. They will liberate themselves from their steel box with wheels. Throw in some gambling and they'll be hooked for life ;)

Giving up all attempts because it might be bad weather is pathetic.

Sep 3, 2009 7:27 PM #

feet:

Speaking of gambling... fundraising via predictions of results in the elite classes is brilliant. A pity that it appears to be a felony in New York to do the same, or else I would be proposing it for the US sprint champs upcoming.

Sep 3, 2009 7:31 PM #

What if it is done (implemented) outside NY?

Sep 3, 2009 8:56 PM #

AZ:

Americans are wedded to the carpark congregation

At this year's most excellent PNWOF races the biggest of the very few downers was this car park congregation and the failure of the course planners to put much (any?) effort into creating an "arena". It occurred to me that if people are so stuck on being at their cars, then (trying to sound like pi) at least put the finish chute in the goddamn parking lot.

Sep 3, 2009 9:03 PM #

Incidentally, that was very much the solution implemented at the aforementioned SS Finals. To my chagrin, as it really detracted from the aesthetic I was looking for.

(Or maybe it is more accurate to say that the parking lot was put in the finish chute--or nearly.)

Sep 3, 2009 11:13 PM #

re: gambling
We did this as a fundraiser in 2003 at the Axis Gear Sprint with z-man betting on himself and going home with the prize money. We treated it as a 50-50 draw which are completely legal in Ontario.

Sep 4, 2009 2:01 AM #

gordhun:

50/50 draws are NOT completely legal in Ontario. For instance no matter what the sales there is a cap on the maximum payout. It was $7500 when I was selling tickets at Senators games. I think it is now more like $15000. Oh that orienteering should be so lucky.
(For the guy that didn't know the Jets, the Senators are Ottawa's NHL team.)
BTW How far are we allowed to digress from the original topic - Quick results - and still be in the sme thread?

Sep 4, 2009 2:49 AM #

Call me old fashioned, but I really like the convenience of being able to walk back and forth between my car and the finish / results area over a short time/distance. At JWOC, it was a nuisance to have to schlep all my stuff between the car and the arena, when they were far apart.

I much prefer to go back to my car after running, change there, do whatever else needs doing, then head back to the finish/results to socialize in a refreshed state. Did I adapt at JWOC? Yes, but my preference remained the same.

Sep 4, 2009 2:54 AM #

Re: geekiness: O-ing is and always will be a sport that attracts geeks -- including some very athletic geeks. Instead of burying that, we should embrace it and target some of our marketing with that in mind. Might some prospects be turned off by the geekiness? Probably, but O-ing is what it is, and it is NOT a sport for everybody. Name one that is.

Finally, just to be sure everybody knows where I am coming from: I am a former US Trail-O champion (like Joe), and recent ARDF rookie (along with several CSUers). In other words, a certified, dyed-in-the-wool GEEK. :-)

Sep 5, 2009 7:13 PM #

mikeminium:

Here are 137 photos from Canadian Champs week. These include Saas-Peepre Junior Camp, Prairie Goat and Relay, Although the SmugMug site offers to sell copies of photos, we have set it so that you should be able to right click and copy them for free. Please let me know of any mistakes or additions in names or captions.

Sep 5, 2009 7:25 PM #

Cristina:

O-ing is and always will be a sport that attracts geeks

Yep, but there's no reason to highlight that fact, because some people are in denial about their inner geek. ;-)

Sep 6, 2009 12:16 AM #