Discussion: DUALIE vs HARDTAIL.

I'm upgrading, with approx AUD$3000 to spend.
Any ideas or opinions on the old dualie/hardtail battle?
Particularly interested in MTB Orienteering, but i also do some longer endurance races, and some XC races.
CHEERS! :)

A Giant Anthem might be a good idea. Giant's seem to be pretty good value for money. Most MTB orienteering is on easy tracks so it doesn't need a dual suspension bike. A hardtail will be lighter and maybe better parts for the price but will be a bit more tiring if you are doing endurance races.

I've got an Anthem so am probably a bit biased but I like it, both the front and rear shocks lock out so if it's real smooth I can ride a rigid or hardtail, well the rear still dampens the bumps a bit but you don't lose any power really when pedaling. Scott Spark is another good full suspension bike but a bit more expensive than the Anthem. Bound to be lots of other good buys too.

For most of the racing it's the engine that makes the biggest difference to speed.

I have had a scott scale 40 for the last 3 years, and in that time, i have cracked the chainstay twice...both times frame was replaced on warranty. I must say i did like the hardtail, but have never riden a dualie. Not particularly interested in scotts, purely due to my experiences with the scott, haha i think they compromise strength for weight...

Hmmm the thing about my engine is it has no working wheels atm.. haha

an anthem is prolly a bit flimsy for you luke, and 3 inches is not going to make a difference to your endurace given what you have in mind. if dualie about 4-5 inches would do you well, iron horse bikes (sydney bike shed) norco fluid (mal's) come to mind on price and durability. GT make strong xc hardtials but... its a GT.

What are they talking about?


;-}

Mountain bikes - hardtail (rigid frame) vs dualie (we call full suspension in the US which has a pivot and shock system on the rear triangle of the bike)

Drop the hard tail and never look back. There is no reason not to go full suspension. They are now very light and the improvement in handling more than makes up for any weight difference. In addition, if you are on the bike for a long event, the full suspension will be easier on your body. also consider going 29er. get out and demo alot of bikes until you find the bike that fits you. For what its worth, I ride a turner

I have both a HT and a FS bike, and prefer the FS bike, even in races. Have owned many different HT's, and 4 FS bikes. Like the post above, I think you really need to demo or borrow a whole bunch of different frames (and sizes if you're not sure), and go from there. So much more important to get the right fit than the right brand.

FWIW, I really like my Titus Racer-X (and liked my Specialized Epic before that too). My Scott Scale was more of a weight-weenie project, and although it's fast in firm conditions, I think for 90% of the stuff I ride the FS bike is better.

I would personally avoid the big name bikes like Trek, Giant, Iron horse,... You are paying for the name and are usually trapped into a compromised build that is a function of the product managers production budget for the bike. Instead, start with a good frame and build the bike that contains components that fit your riding style. There are great Full suspension bikes frame available for as little as USD $600. Put $2000 into a build kit and you will have a kick-ass bike.
Alternatively, look at the non-big brand bikes for good set up.

Look in to a 29" hardtail (and possibly FS).

Definitely test a 29'r a few times before buying. Much different ride on technical trails... I just got one and I love it, but it's a much different ride that I'm still getting used to.

That's the route I'm going. I've found I can get over just about anything on my 29'er single speed (not even a front suspension) that I could on my old Epic. I've got a Kona 29'er HT on order.

For endurance events, it is nice to have a FS bike just because you take a bit less pounding and don't have to pop out of the saddle going over small stuff. Still, I haven't had any trouble finishing 12-hour events on a HT. Also, while the extra weight may not seem like that big of a deal when you're riding it (though I'd debate that), it sure does when you're carrying it. If you plan to use the bike for Adventure Racing, the HT is the way to go because it will likely be on your shoulder at least some of the time.

I have to disagree with ebuckley on the HT for AR. My FS is under 25lbs. I could get a HT under 20 but the improvement in technical riding ability and ease on the body for longer events makes a FS the only way to go for AR. There was a recent article about MTB pros using FS in XC racing. HT are becoming rare in pro races.

Aimless - you talking 29 hardtail? or 26 hardtail? As we're talking completely different breeds here.

I'm getting the hint that pro's like to have a 26FS with a 29HT in their quiver.

if you want to go fast - get a hardtail.
if you want to learn to ride a bike really well - get a hardtail.

xc dualies are for old people who are trying to avoid having their backs give out halfway through a race.

main advice would be to talk to the bike shop/s about which frames they have issues with breaking. yeti arcs are pretty bad - Dan's team rode them, and every one broke at the chainstay. merida had a bad rep for a while.

and 29er dualies are the answer to a question nobody asked.

I am no mtn biking pro. I have seen guys on 29ers ride some impressive stuff and am considering getting one myself. There are a number of FS 29 and that is what I would lean towards but I don't think the technology is quite there yet. I think that specialized will be coming out with one next year.

Bomb, I think that more pros than not are using FS in XC races now. With little weight difference, why wouldn't they? FS handles and climbs better and that's a fact. Yes it is true I am an old person and my racing is mostly endurance events. But I keep my core pretty strong and have never had my back go out during a race.

I have an old hardtail in the garage for sale cause I will never go back.

Aimless - "FS handles and climbs better and that's a fact"... what? fact? haha i guess you're joking, of course there's no way a FS can climb as well as a hard tail - even with a lockout there's still more flexing going on.

"I think that more pros than not are using FS in XC races now", no way, for example, i was at the worlds last weekend, sauser (i think) was about the only one on a FS bike - and that was a rough course.

the only real "fact" is FS bikes weigh and cost more! you can't argue with that... there's more bits ;) the rest of it comes down to what you like and what style riding you wanna do.

my advice to ya Luke - if you wanna ride XC or enduro type races (eg Angry Doctor 100km) get a hard tail! if you really want a FS bike but still wanna race XC get something without too much rear travel (ie don't listen to old mate lachy dow). but if you wanna be doin big jumps and don't care about going quick in XC/enduros get a real dualie. just remember that for the same money a HT bike is gonna have better bits and be lighter than a FS bike. don't get a 29er unless you're gonna do a lot of racing on fireroads, they handle like volvos on twisty singletracks like at Majura. don't listen too much to old blokes. and don't rule out scotts - ALL frames crack eventually...

how come americans never understand jokes? there are some funny americans around - arj barker, homer simpson, dubya etc.

Overwhelming!! It seems there is no clear consensus...not that i really expected one. I test rode a Scott Spark for a bit today, but i must say it felt quite heavy and non-responsive, compared to what i'm used to. Im getting a Cannondale Rize for Sunday, so we'll see how that goes.
On another note...If i were to get a HT, what do you guys think about whether i'm better off buying a frame and building it up, or just getting a complete bike from a store?? Which will get me a better bike for less muller?
And any opinions on Alternative materials? Ti or Carbon? I want it to last at least 6 years of pretty heavy riding...

Shep: Dads 1992 Kona Cinder Cone has fallen off bike racks, more than once, and it has no cracks!! Good old days... The most recent Scale 40 only lasted 5 months, Not Happy John!

shep you funny. One thing is clear to me, Austrailan's like their 26 hardtails. Can we discuss SS now?

Old Bloke checking out now

Maybe things are different down your way. Here's an article on 2009 nationals up here in the US. bottom line

1st 29r
2nd FS
3rd 29r
4th FS
5th 29r

10th went to FS 29r

http://www.velonews.com/article/95579

Let us know when your ready to move into the 21st century.

Old Bloke with Bad Back

PS We could argue bikes all day

how come americans never understand jokes? there are some funny americans around -[...] dubya etc.

That's a good one! Leave it to an Aussie to turn national pain and embarrassment into a funny-haha.

The 29 inch wheel craze reminds me of the Elevated Chain Stay craze of the 80's. Not too many elevated chain stay bikes left. I wonder how long 29 inchers will be around?
Personally, I was underwhelmed when I tried a 29 inch bike.

In general, you get more for your money if you buy a complete bike. The downside, of course, is that someone else is making component decisions for you. The upside, of course, is that the person who's making those decisions is probably one of the few people on the planet that thinks about that stuff more than we do. So, if money is a constraint (and the original post indicates it is) I'd go with the complete bike unless you've got a bunch of good stuff already hanging around.

FWIW, my new ride is the King Kahuna 29'er from Kona. A lot of the XC racers around here have one as the scandium frame keeps the price down and it's still plenty light and strong. It's about the price you were looking for (I think, not really sure about the exchange rate right now).

horses for courses... no doubt FS bikes are getting better, and for some races 29ers are gonna be faster. just buy one of each Luke ;)

yeah Cristina you gotta laugh about that clown, its the best medicine ;)

C'mon Shep, lay of the Yanks. After all, we have Senator 'F-I-S-K-A-L' Fielding.

Yeah, but Fielding went on a 'fact-finding' mission about climate change....to the US. And look what he came back with. :)

I disagree with the 'fadness' of 29rs. probably 2/3 of the people I ride a 29r SS as their main mtb, and half of those have sold all their other bikes cos they never got used any more.
I started riding one a few months ago, and while it takes a few rides to get used to it, I love it now. Its much harder to ride than my race bike (extra 5kg, fully rigid, SS) but I've found my bike handling skills have improved heaps, and its an awesome can of harden-up for hills (cos a bike is not a shopping trolley!), and I go way faster when I get back on my race bike.

Bomb, I hope you are right about 29'er. A breakthrough in technology that fundamentally changes the sport would be great - as did suspension. Unfortunately, the mountain bike world is full 'innovations' that are now dead or dying. Here are a few:
- Biopace chain rings
- Shimano Servo-wave brakes
- Elevated chain stains
- Grip shift - well they are still around on cheap bikes
- Kevlar lace spokes
- Soft tails (not full suspension but the ones with 1" of travel)
- Trek's parabolic top tubes (big last year, quickly disappearing)

I am curious about the strange 45 degree bend on some bikes down tube that has mysteriously appeared this year. I am betting that they will be gone in a year or two. Well intentioned innovations or marketing ploys? Well, I don't know.
Lets hope that a few years from now, when you are riding your 29 down the trail, people dont stop you and say "hey! thats one of those old 29'ers that were hot a few years ago!"

Why are you bothering to ask this question here? Usually best to go to a source or two, not that orienteers don't know about cycling, but we are primarily orienteers. Plenty of threads with just this question and a much bigger pool of cyclists answering on mtbr.

By the number of responses, it seems that there are plenty of people who are knowledgeable and interested in this topic on this forum. We are getting feedback from people who have interest in the same sport (orienteering) so everyone's perspective on the issue somewhat aligned.
For example, I really don't care what a downhill riders view is on the topic. Go to a general biking site and who know what kind of biking deviant may get into the thread.

Thankyou all for your help.
Probably going to stick with a HT until funds accumulate enough for a quality All mountain for weekend funsies!

ride a 29r SS as their main mtb, and half of those have sold all their other bikes cos they never got used any more.

That's pretty much my story. My 29'er SS (full rigid) is now my primary bike, whether it be running errands or blasting singletrack. I sold my FS 26" and traded my 26" HT for a 29'er HT. I agree the handling is a little slower on realy tight stuff, but I think the extra speed over rocks and roots more than compensates. You can always 3-point a switchback if you need to.

Bernard, maybe acjospe has a point, check out rotorburn or cyclingnews, these guys

- Biopace chain rings
- Grip shift
- Soft tails (not full suspension but the ones with 1" of travel)

are far from dead!

I don't know what the questions is, but dualie for sure.
I used to be a hardtail freak until I actually started riding a dualie. A dream up hills, so much easier on the body downhills and generally better at everything. Dualie beats a hardtail hands down for endurance events especially.

WOC mtbo in Israel - I only saw about 4 full sus bikes, rest were light racing hard tails.
British national XC series. Probably 3 full sus , rest on hard tails.

WOC mtbo in Israel - I only saw about 4 full sus bikes - Yeah, and one of them (AJ) won two gold medals!

Neverthless I agree that Luke should stick with HT until he saves more $$ or gets a generous sponsor!

A problem with young blokes getting full suspension is that they might get sidetracked into the thrills of downhill or freeriding tricks and give up orienteering altogether.

I am curious about the strange 45 degree bend on some bikes down tube that has mysteriously appeared this year. I am betting that they will be gone in a year or two.

I'm guessing that the object here is to give a bit more horizontal compliance while preserving lateral stiffness. The knock on aluminum frames is that they transmit too much vibration (at least, that's what the lighter riders tell me; at 170 pounds, I've never had a problem with vibration). Who knows what innovations will hold up and which will be discarded? I do think that 29" wheels (which really aren't that new - cyclocross riders have been using them for 100 years) are here to stay.

Apparently Hitler's angry over the state of 29ers in the World Cup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jElwljxGGs

XC is for sissys
get into downhilling

;-)

What is it about body armour that makes everybody else seem like a sissy? Seriously. When I put on my hockey gear, I just want to start going around saying "make my day."

Downhilling is a good sport for people who don't really have any cardio capacity or endurance.

Haha I knew someone was gotta bite, I'm so evil! Bernie, you know I've got some cardio and endurance! but boy is jumping all over the place ever fun!!!!

But darn right Eric, there is something about the armour! makes me awfully cocky, even though I look like a Gay Vador with my pink full face!!!

MC- I know. Having fun too. I did some ski area dowhilling in the late 80's when it first started.
Back in those days, there was no armor - just lycra. Helmets were all but optional, bikes did not have suspension. Brakes... well you can imagine.
I recall terrified screams as you realized that you were about to eat it big time. I remember bodies tumbling, blood, broken bikes, the strange calm when you are lying there after the crash.
I miss those days.

Oh yeah, I tried it once at Bromont probably in the early 90's, but I did wear my helmet ;-)