Discussion: Jorgen Martensson calls for biennial WOC
in: Orienteering; News
Dec 9, 2009 9:11 AM
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http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F...
(Thanks to Michael at O-Kansas for pointing this out).
Jorgen Martensson turned 50 last week. In the interview at this link, he criticised the IOF for being a 'mafia . . . largely concerned with protecting their own position'. He also agrees with many Australians that WOC should go back to being a biennial event.
(Thanks to Michael at O-Kansas for pointing this out).
Jorgen Martensson turned 50 last week. In the interview at this link, he criticised the IOF for being a 'mafia . . . largely concerned with protecting their own position'. He also agrees with many Australians that WOC should go back to being a biennial event.
Dec 10, 2009 1:39 AM
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Went to the article, but a few problems with translation. Couldn't really tell if he was advocating biennial WOCs, biennial World Cups, or a new two-tier system for playing test cricket.
Dec 10, 2009 2:24 AM
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A few problems with translation? Reminds me of the computer translation demonstration where the English "out of sight; out of mind" went to Russian and then was re-translated back as "invisible idiot". Well, its an old joke but it fits. What is most noteworthy in the story is that in Norway it is considered newsworthy when an orienteering star of the past turns 50.
Martensson and his friend/mentor, Peo Bengtson, have done so much for development of orienteering around the world it is a shame that the IOF can't keep up with them.
Martensson and his friend/mentor, Peo Bengtson, have done so much for development of orienteering around the world it is a shame that the IOF can't keep up with them.
Dec 10, 2009 10:32 AM
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Yep, go biennial WOC's, and World Cups, the way it used to be.
Orienteering at an international level should be about the glory and competitors, not the IOF and money.
WOC just doesn't mean as much anymore.
Orienteering at an international level should be about the glory and competitors, not the IOF and money.
WOC just doesn't mean as much anymore.
Dec 10, 2009 2:34 PM
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It's not really a World Cup either,
From 2006-2010 there will be 55 individual World Cup races.
WOC is included every year, and the Europeans every other year. These events are awarded to different host nations each year with the aims of spreading the championships around.
If we look at the remaining 31 World Cup races which are awarded to individual events, lets see how they are distributed around the world
Switzerland 8
Sweden 7
Norway 6
France 5
Finland 4
Denmark 1
I think that says a lot.
The World Cup used to be about gathering the best orienteers on the best terrain for some awesome races.
Now it is about gathering some of the best orienteers in the richest nations to pay the IOF for the privilege of hosting some awesome races...
From 2006-2010 there will be 55 individual World Cup races.
WOC is included every year, and the Europeans every other year. These events are awarded to different host nations each year with the aims of spreading the championships around.
If we look at the remaining 31 World Cup races which are awarded to individual events, lets see how they are distributed around the world
Switzerland 8
Sweden 7
Norway 6
France 5
Finland 4
Denmark 1
I think that says a lot.
The World Cup used to be about gathering the best orienteers on the best terrain for some awesome races.
Now it is about gathering some of the best orienteers in the richest nations to pay the IOF for the privilege of hosting some awesome races...
Dec 12, 2009 3:37 PM
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i strongly feel a WOC every other year has hurt our domestic development and some our large domestic championships. Our elite need experience in WOC terrain so the intense travel requirements of getting in one or two camps in the host country and then the WOC itself leaves limited time to race domestically. Annual WOCs also put large pressure on limited funds and perhaps not all the top athletes are able to attend WOC every year. I'd vote for WOC in odd years and World Rogaine Champs in even years..
Dec 12, 2009 5:06 PM
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When you say "not all the top athletes are able to attend WOC every year", do you mean not all the top American athletes?...
I don't really see what the World Rogaine Champs has got to do with this, it's not like any real WOC athletes are going to run both.
I don't really see what the World Rogaine Champs has got to do with this, it's not like any real WOC athletes are going to run both.
Dec 12, 2009 6:00 PM
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Rogaine is a completely different sport!
The top guys would get there speed sapped out of them by racing a few rogaines a year
The top guys would get there speed sapped out of them by racing a few rogaines a year
Dec 12, 2009 6:06 PM
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I think Hammer meant exposure- and promotion-wise. Give the media a showcase event every year, but focus on wit and speed one year, guts and endurance the other year. The athletes can then focus on two-year cycles. Continuous, annual exposure was IOF's prime stated reason for the annual WOC.
Dec 12, 2009 6:07 PM
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P.S. Nixon/c, a certain Chris Forne would perhaps beg to differ?
Dec 12, 2009 7:09 PM
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>meant exposure- and promotion-wise.
Yes this is what I meant (although Pam James won WRC and ran for Canada for many many WOCs).
>When you say "not all the top athletes are able to attend WOC every >year", do you mean not all the top American athletes?...
Yes I meant top North American athletes. Not all the top athletes try out every year due to funds and/or available time.
Even years would be good for the WC and regional champs.
Yes this is what I meant (although Pam James won WRC and ran for Canada for many many WOCs).
>When you say "not all the top athletes are able to attend WOC every >year", do you mean not all the top American athletes?...
Yes I meant top North American athletes. Not all the top athletes try out every year due to funds and/or available time.
Even years would be good for the WC and regional champs.
Dec 12, 2009 7:20 PM
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A bigger worry of mine is that some countries will deliberately start to pick and choose which WOCs they attend and perhaps this is already happening due to the cost. Didn't NZ skip a WOC year a few years ago? Would Australia not sent a men's team last year if the next WOC was two years away.
Dec 12, 2009 8:03 PM
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Rogaine has got nothing to do with the IOF.
It's like saying WOC and the World Mountain Running Trophy should be every other year. And a lot more orienteers run that compared to rogaine.
Teams not being able to afford to go is a problem.
Another issue is nations not being able to afford to host events. There is a reason the world cup has stuck to the few countries it has, no one else can afford it. If it was every other year then people would have more time to raise funds. And it would get into some interesting countries again.
Bring back the World Cup relays too.
Vlad... that's my point.
It's like saying WOC and the World Mountain Running Trophy should be every other year. And a lot more orienteers run that compared to rogaine.
Teams not being able to afford to go is a problem.
Another issue is nations not being able to afford to host events. There is a reason the world cup has stuck to the few countries it has, no one else can afford it. If it was every other year then people would have more time to raise funds. And it would get into some interesting countries again.
Bring back the World Cup relays too.
Vlad... that's my point.
Dec 12, 2009 9:59 PM
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Yet the IOF tried to take over rogaining in the early 2000s. Why would it do so if not for the profile and potential exposure? Granted the IRF is not particularly successful on raising the profile, but not like they have been trying or had it as a priority, the IRF is about a half-dozen volunteers. I believe the IOF saw a highly marketable opportunity.
Dec 12, 2009 10:29 PM
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More like they saw another opportunity to rape in some money, like WOC every year, and signing with a rich country to stage world cup finals on a 4 year contract
Dec 14, 2009 12:48 PM
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As a WOC spectator...
When there was a biennial WOC with one world champion, I used to know who it was. Jorgen Martensson was THE World Champion in orienteering. Now with six times as many "world champions" I've no idea. Its a short step from not knowing to not caring.
Last night there was a vote for BBC (i.e. UK) "Sports personality of the year". David Haye is World Heavyweight Boxing Champion - at least he's done everything humanly possible to be that. Thirty years ago, a World Heavyweight Boxing Champion would have won such an award without bother (in fact it went to an elderly soccer player). Not now: there are too many "World Heavyweight Boxing Champions" to know who is who.
The British public has taken the short step from not knowing to not caring about boxing. The IOF should beware of sending the orienteering public down the same pathway.
When there was a biennial WOC with one world champion, I used to know who it was. Jorgen Martensson was THE World Champion in orienteering. Now with six times as many "world champions" I've no idea. Its a short step from not knowing to not caring.
Last night there was a vote for BBC (i.e. UK) "Sports personality of the year". David Haye is World Heavyweight Boxing Champion - at least he's done everything humanly possible to be that. Thirty years ago, a World Heavyweight Boxing Champion would have won such an award without bother (in fact it went to an elderly soccer player). Not now: there are too many "World Heavyweight Boxing Champions" to know who is who.
The British public has taken the short step from not knowing to not caring about boxing. The IOF should beware of sending the orienteering public down the same pathway.
Dec 14, 2009 4:01 PM
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South Africa did not attend WOC '05 in Japan as a result of WOC becoming an annual event. We would almost certainly have had some representation if WOC '04 in Sweden wasn't inserted at the last moment. It would probably be a similar case again if WOC were held outside Europe, as the additional costs of travel would make it unfeasible for most South African competitors.
The South African performances at WOC have also deteriorated since 2004 as a result of the annual system. Whereas before we used to be able to send all our top runners to any given WOC, we now struggle to find the 3 men for a relay team eager to go. We've even gone as far down as 10th place in the selection order to make up the full relay team. Quite a few of our runners have to balance family, work and finance commitments, thus opting to rather focus on one WOC every 2 or 3 years.
In South Africa, WOC is no longer the big event it used to be for the elite runners. If you can't make one, "well, there's always the next year". I think everyone here would like to see a return to a biennial World Champs.
The South African performances at WOC have also deteriorated since 2004 as a result of the annual system. Whereas before we used to be able to send all our top runners to any given WOC, we now struggle to find the 3 men for a relay team eager to go. We've even gone as far down as 10th place in the selection order to make up the full relay team. Quite a few of our runners have to balance family, work and finance commitments, thus opting to rather focus on one WOC every 2 or 3 years.
In South Africa, WOC is no longer the big event it used to be for the elite runners. If you can't make one, "well, there's always the next year". I think everyone here would like to see a return to a biennial World Champs.
Dec 14, 2009 6:27 PM
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Good point Graeme, I've been meaning to ask the IAAF, who exactly is the world running champion?...
Dec 15, 2009 12:03 PM
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Indeed, proper running, not Track and Field. With a proper World Champion like Jorgen Martensson or Muhammed Ali used to be.
Dec 18, 2009 11:44 PM
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At the 2001 IOF meeting that decided to move to annual world championships, AUS, NZ and (to their credit) Finland were the main dissenters as you didn't need to be Einstein to work out the affect annual WOCs would have on some (mainly non-Euro) nations. I may be doing them a disservice, but if my memory serves me correct USA and Canada were strangely silent on the issue.
Although it was not said, I suspect the major reason for introducing annual WOCs was to improve IOF finances as annual WOCs = double the sanction fees compared to biennial WOCs.
Although it was not said, I suspect the major reason for introducing annual WOCs was to improve IOF finances as annual WOCs = double the sanction fees compared to biennial WOCs.
Dec 20, 2009 5:41 AM
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The last sentence (and similar in other comments on this thread), while a worthy sentiment, seems to be under the impression that the IOF is an all-powerful and enormously wealthy organisation along the lines of the IOC or FIFA.
In reality, the IOF has an annual budget somewhere in the order of US$300K (plus or minus a bit) and has, if I recall correctly, two employees. This is fairly similar to both Orienteering Australia and my state association. All would be dwarfed by the larger Scandinavian clubs.
In reality, the IOF has an annual budget somewhere in the order of US$300K (plus or minus a bit) and has, if I recall correctly, two employees. This is fairly similar to both Orienteering Australia and my state association. All would be dwarfed by the larger Scandinavian clubs.
Dec 20, 2009 6:21 AM
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Looks like the comment I was commenting on has disappeared (but hopefully the point still makes sense).
Dec 20, 2009 5:36 PM
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I think it's three full-time. Secretary General, Sports Director, and the administrative support person.
Indeed all this internecine adversariness make me want to scream, lighten up—these revenue streams to generate or possibly redistribute here are tiny, why get so upset (or excited)? and why keep being upset for 20 years? With all possible respect to Jörgen, the PWT did its job, and did it quite well; the mainstream mostly accepted the ideas and the future is here and it includes a lot of what the PWT had envisioned. Conflict may be a flywheel of progress, but possibly a lot of the dissatisfaction is from the insecure realization of your own insignificance in relation to the scale of revenue streams in other aspects of human exisence.
Indeed all this internecine adversariness make me want to scream, lighten up—these revenue streams to generate or possibly redistribute here are tiny, why get so upset (or excited)? and why keep being upset for 20 years? With all possible respect to Jörgen, the PWT did its job, and did it quite well; the mainstream mostly accepted the ideas and the future is here and it includes a lot of what the PWT had envisioned. Conflict may be a flywheel of progress, but possibly a lot of the dissatisfaction is from the insecure realization of your own insignificance in relation to the scale of revenue streams in other aspects of human exisence.
Dec 21, 2009 12:05 AM
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Let's remember these sage words next time there is a USOF budget issue.
Dec 21, 2009 12:10 AM
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Welcome. I was expecting you. The difference is that the PWT and Jörgen were visionaries who managed to get things accomplished through an alternative structure.
This discussion thread is closed.