Discussion: Optimal training time for orienteering

I’m moving this to a new thread, since we’ve strayed from the original topic a bit (nice to have some decent discussion on AttackPoint).

Vlad wrote:
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And, as much as this can be arguable, one doesn't really need more than 15 hours per week of training to be a top-class orienteer. O is quite different from cycling in the time investment part; O event series don't last 4 hours per stage for 2 weeks, they are 1.2 hours for 5 days. Training for that is proportional.
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There are many top coaches that would share this view, but I don’t think it is axiomatic. I never raced a stage race more than a week long. Most of my races were under two hours. Yet, I was only competitive when training over 25 hours a week (usually a lot over). Granted, the edge was more obvious in the long races where people who didn’t do big miles were summarily dropped in the last hour, but you didn’t see them winning many of the shorter ones, either.

It’s certainly true that most top marathon runners train less than 15 hours a week (100-140 miles at under 6:00 per mile). However, many shorter distance runners (400 – 3000m) train considerably more. That’s because they do a lot of strength work as well as base mileage. Cross-training is also common in this group.

Olympic-level distance runners tend to have significantly lower VO2-max readings than their counterparts in other aerobic sports such as Swimming, Cycling and Nordic Skiing. This is attributed to the fact that they train so much less than the athletes in these other sports. The feeling among most top running coaches is that the weight gained from cross-training is too high a price to pay for the extra aerobic capacity. Running more than 140 miles a week is just too hard on the body, so they’re pretty much stuck.

Orienteering is different, though. I think a bit of strength comes in handy when moving through thick vegetation. I’m not suggesting that a bodybuilder can run 6 minute K’s, but certainly the premium on lightness mandated by an extended sub-5 minute mile pace does not exist in orienteering. I think you could put in the extra hours to raise your VO2 max a few points and have it pay off in an orienteering event.

The fact that many of the world’s best orienteers don’t train more does not imply that there is no benefit to doing so. For many years it was felt that swimmers would see no benefit of long training since their events are so short. Then, in the 1970’s the Australian team decided to try it and see what would happen. The result was that Australia became the dominant power in world swimming in the space of just a few years. Now all elite swimmers train at least 20 hours a week.

It may be that there is no benefit to extended training for orienteering (though I don't see a down side to more low-intensity technique work), but it also may be that nobody’s really given it a try. It takes 3-5 years to make a significant change in VO2 max, and not all athletes will respond the same way. Is anyone aware of an elite orienteering team that tried extended training long enough to judge the results?

There is no coasting in running like there is in cycling, or downhills like in x-c ski.

I think one of the big limitations for runners and orienteers is how to train more and keep the injuries away.

I also think that many people put too much of an emphasis on pure running speed. Jani Lakanen's PR for a 10K is 32 minutes whereas Carsten Jorgenson has run a 10K in 2000 in around 29 minutes. That is 9 minutes for a 90 minute race. Despite this difference in road speed, Jani regularly does much better than Carsten in orienteering. Maybe Jani is a more efficient runner in orienteering terrain, but I believe it comes down to orienteering skill. Perhaps rather than increasing the number of training hours, maybe it would be better to increase the *percentage* of hours devoted to good quality orienteering training.

Everyone is different. Someone will do better with technical training, someone needs more training on running speed.

The point here is that NONE (excluding Mike W probably) OF NA OERS is even remotely training at the level that top male elite is training. Vlad is trying rightly to point - WITHOUT GOOD PHYSICAL BASE (read running speed and endurance) NOBODY CAN REACH GOOD WORLD CLASS RESULTS.

Speaking about volumes, I got it from my previous coaches and published books that optimum is between 100-150K per week for 10-20K runner with ~20 to 30% of that attributed to speed work during the peak season. That translates to 8-12 hours only for running. Adding special O training and recovery hours you easily arrive to 15 hours.

Rule of the thumb is that if you want to shave 10% off of your results you have to double your efforts. Looking at the training logs here at Attackpoint I can only say that we have great potential as we are training at 1/3-1/2 of what is required :)

One more thing to add is that just to come from 30-40% to 100% will take 3 to 5 years as the one must do it gradually building the levels stepwise. It took me 3 years to come from nothing (as I stopped running for 7 years) to the level I am at right now. It easy to loose than to gain :(

Want to run faster? Train faster. Want to run longer? Train longer. Want efficiency? Do both.

I think that Sergei has hit on something here.

Want to win a world championship? Run the fastest time.

As someone who is fairly new to orienteering but with a good many years of running training, I would like to offer the following qualification. Do as much running training off trail and in O terrain. It doesn't help to develop an efficient "marathon" shuffle when you are running around the woods with a constantly changing stride. A *lot* more flexibility and strength is needed. Even more so at multiday events.

I went to my first "out of TX" O event at the Rocky Mtn 1000 day. I was in decent road or track race shape but just running the courses hammered me -- particular after multiple days. My O-skills are no where near that of the top guys. But I was also impressed by the plain running strength and power of the leaders.

It was clear to me that aside from working on my O skills, my running training has to be different than training for a local road 5 or 10k - need more strength. Yes or no?

Upon review, I guess I'm repeating what jeffw said above...

When my wife and I went to New York for the West Point meet this year, we had a heck of a time running on the rocky ground that they have there. I guess we'll have to run up and down some dry stream beds to prepare for northeastern terrain next time.

It was clear to me that aside from working on my O skills, my running training has to be different than training for a local road 5 or 10k - need more strength. Yes or no?

You have already touched on the need to run off the trails. By strength are you suggesting hill climbing? If so then by all means yes, you should put this into the mix as well.

I guess what I'd like to point out is that it is much harder to apply a measured effort and get calibrated feedback while running off-trail on bad surface. Certainly to be efficient for O, one needs a different running style than one that's best for road races. It doesn't mean that track workouts cannot be effectively incorporated into one's O-training.

From my own biased perspective, interval runs on bad surface and through vegetation tend to become slowish slugs quite early into the session. It is hard to get into the proper speed regime. Interval sessions on track or trail seem to me more suitable for developing speed. I think that this speed won't go away if one does off-trail running at a slower pace (<~O race pace) in addition to the speedwork on track or trail, but the style that's more efficient for the woods will remain. I think that 2 – 3 off-trail sessions per week are sufficient, which would be covered by 2 O-events per week plus maybe another run. Those are my personal, speculative opinions.

An aside for Jeff: Jani Lakanen's PR for a 10K is 32 minutes whereas Carsten Jorgenson has run a 10K in 2000 in around 29 minutes. That is 9 minutes for a 90 minute race. Despite this difference in road speed, Jani regularly does much better than Carsten in orienteering. Check out the WRE table. It has the results from all major races since 2000. I don't believe the word "much" in the "much better" above is merited, at least as far as 2000 – 2002 results are concerned.

Play more basketball, which is certainly not a marathon shuffle as tomwcarr mentioned, but it is as close as running in the woods gets (jumping, bending, avoiding contacts 'twigs' and so forth.) It's good for agility, strength, and speed. Tested myself by playing every summer long, while still being in Belarus, worked perfectly in the woods.

> By strength are you suggesting hill climbing?

Yes, but I would try to do the hill climbing on a grass hill or trail. And to address Vladimir's comment, one that can be used as a regular barometer of fitness. To the hills I would add (and plan to) bounding/plyometric drills that often include hopping, skipping, lunges, strides....

I agree with Vladimir that slogging around in brush is not entirely productive and that track workouts have their place in a training regime with cycles and periodization. Trail and/or grass loops used consistently can also be a good fitness measure.

For me, at present, I'm am not fully prepared for the high foot and knee lift running, dodging & weaving, jumping and sometimes climbing, needed on O course. On the otherhand, in a very brief conversation with EricB at Rocky Mtn he said that as his O technique got better he was more efficient through the terrain. I have multiple things to work on.

Check out the WRE table. It has the results from all major races since 2000. I don't believe the word "much" in the "much better" above is merited, at least as far as 2000 – 2002 results are concerned.

Thanks for this link. Well I did an interesting (at least I think it is interesting) comparison of their head-to-head results for this time span. In 2000-2001, Jani had better times in 8 races out of 10. On the 2 that he didn't "win", he lost one by 6 seconds and on the other it was a qualification so maybe Jani didn't try as hard once he had it in the bag.

Now in 2002, Jani beat Carsten in 4 out of 7 races. I'm not sure if Carsten improved or Jani got slower. Looking at the world cup points, Carsten scored higher on the winning races than he did in 2000.

I think I've got more trivial ideas, too:

Want to be a better yogi? Do a lot of stretching.
Want to be a better cyclist or triathlete? Do a lot of cycling.
Want to be a better swimmer or triathlete? Do a lot of swimming.
Want to be a better weightlifter? Lift a lot of weights.
Want to be a better basketball player? etc.

... you get the idea... (Note "a lot of" in the above before you get all upset.)

Speaking about speed, I can also add that there is big difference between sub-32:00 for 10K and 35:00 and it takes "a lot of" training (per Vladimir) to go faster. Just think about 10% difference that the one already has in place before the race even starts. I doubt that any USA orienteerer can safely say that he/she can run 10k sub-32:00 (even 35:00). To be withing 10% from top to qualify for A finals at WOC your running speed MUST be below 35:00! And we are not speaking about O techniques...