Discussion: c8
in: dersu; dersu > 2011-04-16
Apr 17, 2011 4:30 AM
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Approaching c8 from north to south, I thought I was coming in a little east and intended to hit the reentrant and turn right, but when I came over the edge of the hill looking down into the reentrant, the control was directly in front of me. So I did not really see the other knolls, but I would not be at all surprised if somebody concluded that it was slightly east of where mapped. Although my exit to the south was pretty clean and I did not notice anything that didn't seem right after I left the control, so maybe I turned a little on the last 100m of my approach - it was pretty thick up there.
This is a great area, but you can't set controls in complex terrain by pace counting from hundreds of meters away (which is how the course setter described placing number 9) and expect them to be accurately placed. You have to READ the terrain and confirm each location from multiple approaches.
Now don't get me wrong; I REALLY appreciate anyone who sets courses. But a good vetting would sure have helped this course.
This is a great area, but you can't set controls in complex terrain by pace counting from hundreds of meters away (which is how the course setter described placing number 9) and expect them to be accurately placed. You have to READ the terrain and confirm each location from multiple approaches.
Now don't get me wrong; I REALLY appreciate anyone who sets courses. But a good vetting would sure have helped this course.
Apr 17, 2011 8:28 PM
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I think that you are being overly critical. I could tell by the nonchalant "circles" on the master map, that I wasn't going to be need to be very precise. I drew very big circles, and for the most part when I got to the middle of my circle and looked around there was a control in sight. The exceptions were 8 and 9. In both cases, a little bit of searching found the controls.
I remember you saying that there were 4 incorrect controls, so after the run, I had four possible candidates: 5, 6, 8, and 9. The only ones that I was absolutely sure were in the correct place were 4, 7 , 10, 11 because there was only one place for those.
After I went to pick up controls, I now think that only 8 and 9 were misplaced. 8 was very close (I don't know why I didn't see it earlier.. maybe it was behind a tree). 9 wasn't in the depression that I looked at first, so I went to the next depression and there it was. The problems with 5 and 6 were that the map was too vague at those spots. For instance, at 5 , there were at least 3 ditches on that spur.
I didn't understand the difference between dark green and medium green.. maybe later in the year it shows up.
I remember you saying that there were 4 incorrect controls, so after the run, I had four possible candidates: 5, 6, 8, and 9. The only ones that I was absolutely sure were in the correct place were 4, 7 , 10, 11 because there was only one place for those.
After I went to pick up controls, I now think that only 8 and 9 were misplaced. 8 was very close (I don't know why I didn't see it earlier.. maybe it was behind a tree). 9 wasn't in the depression that I looked at first, so I went to the next depression and there it was. The problems with 5 and 6 were that the map was too vague at those spots. For instance, at 5 , there were at least 3 ditches on that spur.
I didn't understand the difference between dark green and medium green.. maybe later in the year it shows up.
Apr 18, 2011 12:35 PM
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I missed this meet, but I regret hearing about misplaced controls at ICO meets, especially on this map, which I feel may be the most interesting in the ICO collection.
I can't comment on whether Mike is being too critical, but I agree that close terrain-reading is the best way to set/vet in this terrain. Indeed, with no lack of detail and features (especially in the "knoll zone" part of the map), a setter shouldn't need to pace-count from a long distance to set a control. It is a target-rich environment.
When Scott Belmar and I fieldchecked this area right after the map was done, it was clear that Svistun used a certain amount of terrain simplification for the mapping in the feature-rich areas. It took a little bit of mental calibration before we could read the area successfully, because we had to understand the rough size thresholds that she used as her mapping parameters.
This is the design appeal of the area, for a competitor on the run will need to make this assessment quickly, but it does require more attention to detail from the designer to make sure that everything is correct. One can't set controls here the same way one would set at, say, Eagle Creek East.
To echo Mike: Kudos to anyone learning to set courses, as continued meets are vital to the growth of the sport. The activity of vetting after setting is often overlooked at local meets, but some properties demand it more than others.
I can't comment on whether Mike is being too critical, but I agree that close terrain-reading is the best way to set/vet in this terrain. Indeed, with no lack of detail and features (especially in the "knoll zone" part of the map), a setter shouldn't need to pace-count from a long distance to set a control. It is a target-rich environment.
When Scott Belmar and I fieldchecked this area right after the map was done, it was clear that Svistun used a certain amount of terrain simplification for the mapping in the feature-rich areas. It took a little bit of mental calibration before we could read the area successfully, because we had to understand the rough size thresholds that she used as her mapping parameters.
This is the design appeal of the area, for a competitor on the run will need to make this assessment quickly, but it does require more attention to detail from the designer to make sure that everything is correct. One can't set controls here the same way one would set at, say, Eagle Creek East.
To echo Mike: Kudos to anyone learning to set courses, as continued meets are vital to the growth of the sport. The activity of vetting after setting is often overlooked at local meets, but some properties demand it more than others.
Apr 19, 2011 1:49 PM
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The biggest misplacements were 2, 3 and 9. Since you started very late and the event staff knew about these problems by then, perhaps the master map had been corrected at least for 2 and 3.
2 (hilltop) was on a spur more than 100 m to the northeast. Fortunately, after standing on the hilltop, the logical route was to continue on up the spur to the northeast to see if perhaps there was an unmapped hill farther up the spur. At some point, you could then see the control ahead, but had to cross over a small creek/reentrant to get to it. This was far enough apart that both the hill and the spur could easily have been simultaneously used as control sites without protest or confusion.
3 (hill, north edge) was on the next hill to the east. I lost a lot of time on this, because after crossing the target hilltop, I continued on down the broad spur another 100-150 meters, expecting to see another low rise that might have been confused with the hill. No luck, so I worked my way back up, then spotted another orienteer going to the control across the stream on the next hill/spur. A possible approach direction could have brought you right past the flag, and if you looked carefully, you might have been able to catch a glimpse of it from near where it should have been. This placement apparently was intentional (the course setter said he had made the change in the field, but had forgotten to change the master map).
9 was the next depression to the southwest. I clicked 1:02 from pausing where it should have been to finding it. Then the code was incorrect, so I spent an additional 4:36 making a tour of surrounding depressions and reentrants, to verify that the one with the correct code was not hiding somewhere nearby.
2 (hilltop) was on a spur more than 100 m to the northeast. Fortunately, after standing on the hilltop, the logical route was to continue on up the spur to the northeast to see if perhaps there was an unmapped hill farther up the spur. At some point, you could then see the control ahead, but had to cross over a small creek/reentrant to get to it. This was far enough apart that both the hill and the spur could easily have been simultaneously used as control sites without protest or confusion.
3 (hill, north edge) was on the next hill to the east. I lost a lot of time on this, because after crossing the target hilltop, I continued on down the broad spur another 100-150 meters, expecting to see another low rise that might have been confused with the hill. No luck, so I worked my way back up, then spotted another orienteer going to the control across the stream on the next hill/spur. A possible approach direction could have brought you right past the flag, and if you looked carefully, you might have been able to catch a glimpse of it from near where it should have been. This placement apparently was intentional (the course setter said he had made the change in the field, but had forgotten to change the master map).
9 was the next depression to the southwest. I clicked 1:02 from pausing where it should have been to finding it. Then the code was incorrect, so I spent an additional 4:36 making a tour of surrounding depressions and reentrants, to verify that the one with the correct code was not hiding somewhere nearby.
This discussion thread is closed.