Discussion: Top 16

With Sport Canada funding a possibility for orienteering - at some point in the future - there will be an increased focus on reaching Sport Canada's target of "Top 16 or top half (if less than 32 finalists)" at any of the World Championship categories.

What potential do you see for us to reach this? We've done it a couple of times in the past, and come close with the relay teams. But how to we consistently deliver these kinds of results?

If the relay counts, then that's probably our easiest chance.

So, have your best runners focus on the relay, and the relay alone. Specific training for that event, specific training for the terrain involved. Have them taper during WOC and plan to peak for the relay day - while their competitors are largely prioritizing individual races.

It can be done - to date most Canadians tend to burn a lot of energy on the individual races, and honestly we're just not fit enough to race in multiple disciplines at the WOC plus hope to run the relay at 100% physically and mentally.

IIRC, the Swiss men really emphasized the WOC Relay as a priority in the 1990's, with commensurate results.

My $0.02.

What about a Sprint "Specialist". A really fast runner that doesn't even bother to train in the forest but does a lot of sprint training. Might be easier to recruit a really fast runner if they know they'll be running in parks, willages, etc. Also, I think the amount of time needed to become really good at sprints is considerably less than the amount required to become really good in the woods though natural speed is more important in the sprint.

Top 16 in Relay = 2 people qualifying regularly for finals, plus a third not too bad. The girls might manage it soon. Guys, not for five years at least.
Top 16 individual - build on and up ARK and the like, get kids doing athletic and orienteering training from age 10 or 12 several days per week... wait for ten to fifteen years...
... or ask Ms Kemp nicely ;)

Does Emily's JWOC 13th count?

Honestly, especially on the men's side, I think we're going to have a really hard time making the top 16 in the individual races. 16th or top half seems weird as a measure, since 16th is quite far from the halfway point.

I think the women's relay is our best chance, especially this year as it's such special terrain and two of us have spent the year in France. We were only one place out last year.

You weren't sixteenth last year, Carol? Woo must have it wrong... and yeah, the girls can do it again...

I thought Canada was 16th in the women's relay last year.

but not top half -

@AZ - ahh

@Carlch, looking at the men's top-16 in the sprint last year, they are all better navigators than anyone I can think of in the US or Canada.

Here is a quick summary of Canada's Top 16 Relay Results at WOC.

Only two times have those top 16 finishes also been in the top 50% for the men.
1978 Norway
1987 France!

Our women have never been in the top 16 and top 50% but in Norway last year were less than a minute from reaching that goal!!

MEN
placing (year, total teams)
8 (1978, 20) *****
9 (1987, 23) *****
11 (1974, 15)
11 (1976, 18)
11 (1979, 19)
12 (1983, 22)
15 (1981, 21 )
15 (1997, 22 )

Women
10 (1978, 17)
11 (1981, 18)
12 (1979, 17)
14 (1974, 14)
15 (1976, 18)
16 (2005, 22)
16 (2010, 28) **missed top 50% by < 1 minute

Actually, Wadd, in 1997 there were at least 32 teams starting that relay. I know because that's the number we wore. I think there were actually 33 teams starting, so we were top 50%.

There is an error in the IOF database for that year. If you look carefully, there were 10-12 teams left out of the results list (I guess they lost a page). Look for USA, for example - they are one of the 10-12 teams missing from the database.

IOF results archives online show 23 teams for the 1997 men's relay... is it possible the other teams were unofficial teams?

As for improving WOC results... we need more training focused clubs providing much much more map time.

Again, no - there were 32+ official teams there.

Anyway, we are currently a long way from top 16 in the Men's relay, but it could be achieved if there was a focus on it.

The Women's relay is just about there already - and with a focus on that it could be done pretty consistently.

I'm not saying this is necessarily what we SHOULD be doing, just saying that I think it's might be one of the less farfetched ways to achieve top 16 and top 50%.

Cjross
Unfortunately only senior world champs count.
Oh, and the Olympics

What is strange about the 'top 16' criteria?
(the 'top half' only comes into play if less than 32 finalists)

Well, it just seems like top half is so much more attainable than top 16 (~35%). The top 16 women in the world seem really out of reach right now (for me) but top half in the relay feels very possible.

Focusing on getting top-30 individual results every year at JWOC could be the way to get good senior results in the long run.

Well, it just seems like top half is so much more attainable than top 16 (~35%).

Nobody said it wasn't supposed to be difficult.

Well, I didn't mean that it should be easy, just that top half in the relay and top 16 in an individual race don't seem to be comparable.

Anyways, that's not really the point. To answer AZ's original questions, I think we do have the potential to achieve that result in the women's relay and the three of us on the team are all still improving, so we have the potential to maintain it for a while. (Not to mention all the junior girls we have coming up.)

Why 16 rather than a more round number like 15? Based on some calculation or previous results?

The rule is supposed to generally apply to all sports, so top 16 probably comes from sports that are contested as knockout tournaments or heats/rounds (e.g. tennis, boxing, short-track speed skating, snowboard-cross etc., where you have eg., quarters, semis, etc., typically contested by people in multiples of 2 or 4).

Just pulled out my WOC'97 map book and yeah you are right Wil there there were 33 teams that started in the men's relay that year so add that to the list of years that Canada was top 16 AND top 50%. Not sure why that didn't click because we set top 15 as our goal before hand. Regardless, the key to Canada's 1987 and 1997 relay performances were strong first leg runs by Oivind Naess and Wil Smith, respectively. Here is the updated list for the men.

MEN
placing (year, total teams)
8 (1978, 20) *****
9 (1987, 23) *****
11 (1974, 15)
11 (1976, 18)
11 (1979, 19)
12 (1983, 22)
15 (1981, 21 )
15 (1997, 33) ******

Since coming to France, namely since coming to train with le Pole France, I've been able to see how the elites train.... and I must say that it takes a lot of dedication. Thierry once told me that your talent in orienteering is only 10% of your result; 90% is your preparation. So the question is whether Canadian orienteers are able to put in the hours of preparation in order to get these top 16 results. Quite a few of the top french runners are paid a percentage of their salary but don't work at all (or they work part time instead) as part of a government initiative... which opens up a lot of time for training and competing. Already we've made so much headway with getting orienteering recognized as a sport, with training camps across the country and the the Rising Star Award... and I'm so excited about it all!!!... but could this ever be a possibility for elite orienteers in Canada? I know that it's a big decision to make (what?! cut down on working and train?)... I always had trouble deciding whether to go to class or to training (hehe training consistently won)... but maybe making this into a kind of longterm thought/goal could help us get into the groove of aiming for those top spots at WOC.

Supporting laBaguette: Gueorgiou, Gonon and Peyvel (ex-team) were in the same class in primary school.

In the past few years, Poland has had a couple of Junior European Champions (or EYOC?) and JWOC medals develop out of a small Warsaw school with some good coaches.

>but could this ever be a possibility for elite orienteers in Canada

Yes. Place in top 16 and get carded and receive financial support from Sport Canada.

...oh and classes should always come before training....

Its all about time management!

how much is the funding if you make top16?

The COF recently announced that we are now eligible to apply for Sport Canada funding. This eligibility applies to what Sport Canada refers to as "national scope" We didn't meet the eligibility requirement for "international scope". The "international scope" criteria requires an average of one top 16 and top half finish at least every second year. We've only had one so far in the last decade (Sandy in 2005) so we would need to have top 16/top half results each year for the next 3-4 years to meet the current criteria. Sport Canada only recognizes senior World Championships. When we meet the "international scope" criteria, we can apply for additional funding from Sport Canada, and then there may be some carding opportunities for athletes. You can find carding program info here, including a list of the Canadian athletes who currently receive carding how much they receive.

Top 16 and top half results from Ski, MTBO and Trail O would be useful as well.

Interesting that we give money to professional curlers like Kevin Martin (18K) and tennis players like Milos Raonic (10.8K) who most definitely don't need it, especially Raonic who has made half a million in prize money in 2011 so far.

I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that Sport Canada assigns a certain number of cards to each National Sport Organisation (NSO - for us the COF) and it is left up to the NSO to distribute these cards to their athletes. Perhaps unfortunately Sport Canada has no say in who actually ends up with cards. All they can do is lessen the number of cards that NSO gets - if the NSO decides to give cards to already rich athletes theirs not much we can do with this system.

More info on the Athlete Assistance Program (AAP) here: http://www.wtfcanada.com/pdfs/Athletes/AAP%20Polic...

Doesn't it happen in other sports (ie ski disciplnes) that athletes can gain their top 16 status through results in world cup races, not just world championships? Wouldn't that hold for orienteering as well? If so we should hold more world cup races in North America. We once had a Canaidan girl finish fourth in a world cup race in Hamilton.

Gord, In order for a national sport organization to meet the "international scope" criteria in Sport Canada's Sport Funding and Accountability Framework - which generally is the precursor to any athlete specific carding within the sport - the top 16 and top half results need to be from Senior World Championships (or Olympic Games), not World Cups.

I actually think getting a top 16 at World Cup is harder anyway because the quotas for the powerhouse nations are much greater (6 or 8 athletes) than the 3 athletes/nation at WOC.