Discussion: Cash prizes

Some Canadian clubs have recently started awarding cash prizes at Canada Cup Events for the Elite Series categories. I'm wondering if anyone can definitively tell me what the largest prizes (cash or otherwise) ever awarded at an orienteering event in North America are.

The car!

If it wasn't the car that Eric and Nikolay (and 26 other teams) won, then it was either a more expensive car, or a more expensive diamond ring won at similar events since 2009.

But those aren't really defined as "orienteering events," are they?

... and if they were, they would have never attracted the attention nor have been able to secure the necessary sponsorship! Orienteering event organizers have a lot to learn.

It doesn't quack like a duck, but it looks and swims like one.

Vlad, why do you say "... and if they were, they would have never attracted the attention nor have been able to secure the necessary sponsorship!"? Are you suggested that the sanctioning process somehow inhibits the ability to get sponsorship? Or is it rather a matter of event format?

The reason I started this thread is because the OOC is working on being able to provide some significant cash prizes at the upcoming Ottawa O-Fest in May. We're working with sponsors on this based on the fact that the orienteering market is set to explode in Ottawa at the moment. Assuming things go ahead as planned we will have a press release stating that the largest cash prizes ever offered at a Canadian Orienteering Federation or Orienteering USA sanctioned orienteering meet in North America will be up for grabs at the event. This will be the first of several stories about the event sent to the general media. I simply wanted to figure out at what amount I could say that it was the largest prize available. Based on the few answers here I think I've gotten the answers I'm looking for but it's a real shame that there aren't more events with serious prizes.

Largest I've personally given out in any one award has been $100. For either two or three years we dispensed a few hundred dollars at the Sprint Series finals.

Largest I ever won was $5.

I think there was a deal about 8 or 10 years ago to give cash to the top three in M/F21 at the US Champs, the number that I recall was $1,000, but that may have been the total. I think it was at the Champs at Lake Tahoe???

And I also think that was structured in the form of travel grants, which you may or may not want to consider the same as cash.

There were some cash prizes at the 1000-Day back in the second or third year, but I don't remember the total offhand (probably on the order of $100). However, the race that had the prizes was an unsanctioned "sprint" race (not the same as what is now considered a Sprint). There was controversy surrounding this, specifically, someone threatening to report any college students participating in the race to the NCAA such that their eligibility for NCAA sports would be revoked. (Some phone calls on my part to the NCAA administrative office revealed that this was not a concern.)

And I also think that was structured in the form of travel grants

The 2003 U.S. Champs offered cold hard cash, I'm pretty sure. bmay will soon confirm, I hope.

Vlad, why do you say

Because the bastardized activity is a lot easier to present to the media and the public than the purebred one, so it is far more likely to attract sponsorship.

Yeah, it was $1000, $500, $250 for the 2003 champs elite classes.

http://www.baoc.org/sched/s03/tahoe2day/s030912.ht...

I've written about this before and don't really want to go into it again. I'll just state that if cash prizes become the norm in orienteering, you will see the sport change in many ways, not all for the better. Note the camaradarie at the end of a running race and compare it to the environment at a bike race. There are cases to be made for both, but they are very different. Make real sure you want to go there because it's a one-way street. Once infused, it's almost impossible to get money out of a sport.

Money was infused in 2003 and a few other times... where'd it all go?

ebuckley, how do cash prizes affect the atmosphere at the end of a race? Granted more people at a race will change the socialising afterward but I wouldn't call that a direct result of cash prizes. Of course there are going to be pros and cons to any change. Cash is one way of attracting interest to the sport and if we can give a bit of cash from a sponsor to our top elite athletes who will use it to train and compete at a higher level - something I definitely support.

What would your eligibility criteria be Jeff? If you're giving a decent amount I would be concerned about non US entries from big names.

Doping follows cash. I don't think the figures being discussed are material enough to incent doping, but everything has a tipping point, and the Fourth Law of Thermodynamics (people respond to incentives), always applies.

I don't watch pro cycling, as I personally don't find doping-infested athletics interesting, and I can't speculate as to whether Ed is referring to that or not, but, if you start throwing real cash around, then you need to budget more of that real cash to man the doping tent and the lab fees.

non US entries? like... Canadians?

But seriously, if big name orienteers are coming to the event then there's an obvious easy story for the media. And I think a chance to race against some of the world's
best without spending a ton of money to fly to Europe is as good an attraction to serious North American elites as a thousand bucks no?

I wasn't planning on restricting it... but do others think otherwise?

I'm not sure, I think both are valid approaches, that's why I asked the question, as I think it's pretty interesting. If the money is significant, it could pay for a trip for a big guy, and the accompanying media/racing chances. But on the other hand, it does seem like a missed opportunity to invest in home orienteering, considering this un-named foreign athlete likely already gets rather a lot of financial support in comparison. It's an interesting question.

And oopsie. I've had a very bad day today, really no offence intended on the US slip up :) I obviously meant North American.

So like a semi-rigged appearance fees like they do at some running road races?

I think the idea of several stories about the events sent to the general media is the most important part of this, as consistent media releases help a great deal. OOC did a very good job getting some press for the Ont Champs, which this can build on.

Bjorn Kjellstrom of Silva once donated a trip to Sweden for the O'Ringen 5 Days plus $400 spending money. That was for being the top Canadian male at the 1972 Canadian Orienteering Championships.

Jeff, Back in the 1980's most of the triathlons in Ontario and Quebec used some of their high entry fees to give prize money to the top finishers. I think your mom might tell you that the OAC triathlon was an exception. If you had asked most if not all age-classers if prize money for the elite helped encourage them to participate they would have said no and probably added that they would rather have lower entry fees than prizes for the pros.
A few years ago when OOC was hosting the National Team selections some of the club members volunteered to billet team candidates. It seemed to work out well. I think billeting and ridesharing services are the most valuable incentives clubs can offer -way above prize money for a few.

i like the idea of attracting good elites. some cash will do that. not sure if this is a WRE but something like this ('anyone i.e. first 10 elite athletes worth over 4000 ranking points, or top 200 on IOF ranking list could have free entry and combined with a hotel that want to play along free accommodation for the weekend" )

That is the organizing model for AlpeAdria cup and it works. A regional event with free entry and accommodation for each region (W18: 2; M18: 2; W21: 3; M21: 4; W35: 2; M35: 2). http://www.alpeadriaorienteering.com/. In most cases organizer get support from local community and regional event attract other runners as well.

It is not an elite event but support runners who want to become elite runners.

It's a mixed bag. Sometimes a free entry, free accommodations, and a free flight aren't enough to sway top WRE-pointers.

Interesting thread. Despite the fact I could have made some serious dough if clubs were willing to give out $1K/win between 1995 and 2000 (over 100 race wins) I'm not a fan of prize money at orienteering races. However, I do think that host clubs can do a better job on providing valuable and/or useful prizes at their races. Nev Monster mentioned that Ottawa has one of the toughest outdoor gear markets in Canada and so there must be some good sponsors willing to provide some nice shoes or jackets. The nicest prize I ever won was the Canadian Champs at Wakefield (hosted by Ottawa OC). Gord Hunter commissioned an original painting of the Gats. Thanks again Gord, the painting hangs proudly in my house. Anyway back to the topic of cash prizes. I think that money could be better spent to waive entry fees and perhaps even offer some travel assistance to some of the top elites. Call it appearance fees if you want to. For example the organizers of the 2010 NAOC waived entry fees for many of the top elites to help attract a stronger field and we followed their lead for GLOF that same year. I think that makes for a good press release. "Canada's top orienteers in town for major race". Also, a press release stating the largest pool of money for an orienteering race (even at $1K) could backfire when the public compares this to the cash prizes offered in other sports. For example,

http://www.arrs.net/PM_OneYr.htm

The best advice on this thread is from ebuckley.

I appreciate both the direct answers to my initial question and all the advice I've gotten in this thread. I want to clarify that any prizes we'll be offering, cash or otherwise, will not stand alone but will be combined with other incentives. We started offering free entries to Canadian High Performance program members and US national team members last year and will be doing that again this year. We'd like to add to that in an effort to build a reputation both inside and outside the orienteering community as an event that goes the extra mile. We certainly will be doing our best to keep the event as welcoming as possible and as always, will be encouraging billeting. In recent years we haven't done this formally but rather has been set up on an individual basis. I don't think we're at the point yet with this event that there is much benefit to doing this formally but when the time comes we'll definitely consider that option.

Lastly, in response to Gord's comment about people preferring lower entry fees and no prize money. There is no intention of significantly changing the fee structure. Any prizes would come directly from additional sponsors such as Inov-8, Trimtex, MEC, etc.

Whatever happens, regular press releases will be a primary focus.

Ideally your prizes and entries are separate income and expenses. Entry fees pay for the costs of putting on the event. Prize money (and non-cash prizes) is provided by the sponsors in return for exposure.

Entry fee money should not be used to provide prizes, but can certainly be used to offset discounts. Funds from the sponsors can be used to offset entry fees, but the other way (entry fee money for prizes) doesn't fly that well with participants (you are using MY money to subsidize THAT guy).

And to agree with T/D, using entry fees to fund prizes gives the event a distasteful flavor of gambling.

I am a big believer in waiving entry fees and subsidizing travel - call it an appearance fee if you want, either approach works. To me, and I imagine most young competitive athletes, this is a huge incentive. The biggest expense in my budget is travel and entry fees to races, by far and away.

Though, isn't enticing top elites by waiving/reducing entry/travel costs doing the same thing? MY entry fee would be subsidizing THAT guy, wouldn't it? And then THAT guy would win all of the prizes provided by sponsors (Inov-8 shoes, Chevy Sonics, etc.).

(I'm not necessarily against this, just playing devil's advocate)

Yes it's the same thing, but it makes what's going on more palatable to those who find the flavor distasteful.

Same thoughts as T/D. I also like organizers who think about media and good press releases before the event. Orienteering need this. But I have an experience that some sponsors don't wan't that their name is mentioned in press releases. They give us their products and no money and their company media strategy was very clear how should be used company name, slogans,...

...using entry fees to fund prizes gives the event a distasteful flavor of gambling.

Does the Highlander have the distasteful flavor of gambling?

Token prizes like a bottle of cheap wine don't have much distasteful flavor other than to those who drink it. Prizes that are given to all who can achieve a preannounced standard are different than prizes to whoever bests the competition.

I think cash money willl attract more people and support the orienteering events, but it will change the socialising afterwards.
that's inevidably

I have been playing with the idea of having cash prizes or gift certificate prizes in the CNYO park series this spring. The reasons for that is that you might attract a few higher end athletes to come check out the race. I do agree with the idea, that having money as prizes could detract from the social friendly competitive aspect of the sport. I like the idea of having cool useful prizes such as nice jackets and other things, and have been considering that approch. I also agree with waving fees and paying for travel. I would question though how does that get new people into the sport, weather at a competitive level or not. Has anyone played with the idea of giving a great athlete from anther sport money to come to an orienteering race to check it out. To me that would seem like a pretty poor investment, because you have no idea if they will get hooked or not, its a gamble. I think cash prizes would be a better way to attrackt better athletes. In reading most of the coments it would seem like this is really a debate on the direction the sport should go. Right now there are no people in the sport who are sustaied by their ability to compete. Most people have full time jobs to support themselves and then train on the side. As much as money can bring negative aspects to competition, you really need money to be able to buy food, pay bills. Wiaving entrance fees helps because you can save money, but who is going the by the athletes food when he is not at the event? I think if you are looking at the sport on a competitive level you have to consider that a person who makes money in races and from sponsors and contracts will be able to focus more on training and do better consistently at a higher level than a person who has to work 40 hours a week to support themselves. There are a number of examples where this is not the case, but on average this is true in most competitive sports. I have a number of friends in the running world who can make 2-3k in local road races a year which allows them to work less hours and train more. There are also people who can make 10k in a year easily by traveling around more. They also get their race fees waved and put up in a hotel. Local road races have a competitive atmospher when there is money involeved. But the reality is that 90% of the competitors are their because they love to run and race, and test their ability. They support the high end athletes. The NBA, NFL, MLB would have a hard time running if there were not millions of fans. The questions is what is the best direction for the sport of orienteering? I think however that to ever have athletes who can conistently perform and be top 10 in WOC races each year, there needs to be more finacial support for them so they can devoted more time to their training. One way that being discused here is cash prizes. Another idea I have been playing with, is how could a club bring in enough money to be able to sponsor an athlete profesionaly. The club would have to bring in 50k a year, and then give about 40-45 to the athlete. To do that you need races and events that attrackt alot of people. Also you have to look at the fees that are charged. I know our local meets are very cheep, compared to a local road race entry fee. But will raising prices detour people from the sport. Its a great question to play with. It would be nice to get feeback from clubs and people who are testing the waters with these differnt ideas to see what works best in this sport and feel right for the sport.