Discussion: Which sport is missing or doesn't belong on Olympics?

Very nice analysis on our national web TV portal. Beach volleyball and BMX (party atmosphere) are probably the most entertainment sports from last Olympic innovations. One new sport which might also become very popular in Rio 2016 is Kite surfing.

The most popular non-olympic sport in our country is Climbing and the most funniest comment: "Each country must send one man/women to Modern Pentathlon! It is the most olympic sport!"

As it is completely unknown sport to me I went to London webpage to read more about it. I can understand triathlon but this I can't (ride, fence, shoot, swim and run)?

The only thing modern about the Modern Pentathlon is that it is an event of the modern Olympics ie since 1896 as opposed to the ancient Greek Olympics. One hundred years ago the events of the modern pentathlon represented the skills of the complete sporting gentleman. Perhaps every hundred years or so they should reconsider the event that compose a 'modern' pentathlon.

Yup, old school military skills make up the "modern" pentathlon.

Out) Rhythmic Gymnastics, closely followed by synchronized swimming

In) Orienteering of course and maybe mountain / fell running

An argument could be made for:

Out) everything except track & field events and marathon
In) tug of war

After watching some of these Olympics I'm even less convinced that orienteering belongs or would benefit from being in the games. It surely hasn't risen the profile of most of the sports since I still know nothing about them - I keep flipping through coverage and finding myself exclaiming, "what, that's a sport?" or "wait, this sport is in the Olympics?" There are too many other things going on for any new, niche sport (and orienteering will probably always be niche, I just hope we can have a slightly bigger niche) to get any real interest from people. It's also too nerdy. And that's okay. :-)

Out) Dressage. I'm not sure I have ever laughed so much at a sport as I did on the Olympic recap last night.

I take Cristina's point but there's no doubt that Cycling had benefitted massively in the UK from our last Olympic haul. And I now know what the word ippon is, although can't quite identify the move.

I was on the IOF Council in the late 70's and early 80's when there was a lot of talk about orienteering getting in to the Olympics. I was skeptical then and became more skeptical in the years simce UNTIL the recent WOC. Watching those icons move and weave across the computer screen was very compelling. Particularly in the relay I found my self asking why certain orienteers were heading in certain directions and 'how did he miss that control?"
I think GPS tracking along with strategically placed cameras for live coverage bring the sex appeal/ spectator appeal necessary for Olympic inclusion.
The next problem would be getting enough IOC heavyweights to want its inclusion.
The final issue would be what changes to the sport would the IOC demand. Have you seen their BMX racing on a paved track? What's with that?

All the swimming events that are not freestyle should be out. Either that or add backwards running and crab walk versions to all the track events.

In - winter: Snowshoeing
Out - winter: ice dancing

In - summer: Rugby
Out - summer: reduce number of medals in swimming and athletics.


I don't think IOF is big enough to get into the Olympics and I blame that on the splintering of 'adventure sports' across too many Federations. If FIS can cover alpine and cross country skiing then it should be possible for adventure sports to be together too. I think it would be MUCH better for there to be an International Federation that incorporates adventure racing, rogaine, and orienteering. Then that Federation could promote their various sports through partnerships with both national federations and more importantly for-profit event organizers (the AR model) with the aim to enhance visibility potentially through the Olympics.

The other approach is for IOF to contract out event management. Imagine if IOF had made a contract with WWOP and the Park World Tour many years ago for them to develop an annual Urban WOC with sprint, sprint relay, and long distance disciplines. IOF gets some money up front but WWOP could have controlled where the race would be hosted given their tremendous promotional and more importantly development machine. I think the sport would have been a lot closer to the Olympics with linking to professional for profit event management organizations than it is today.

I like Athletics but not all disciplines e.g. Race walk. If I am correct athletes must always be with one foot in contact with the ground. How many judges are along the 20K or 50K course and how can human eye see this?

"The next problem would be getting enough IOC heavyweights to want its inclusion"
Gord, do we (orienteering) get any official sympathies from any of the IOC council members in the last 30 years or we are still playing by the rules and trying first to get 75 official members?

To play devil's advocate, how's the model working for AR? The sport's pretty much dead if a marquee U.S. expedition race attracts about 14 teams, mostly locals. Not that I think the model is broken—the idea of making a viable sport out of what only a small number of people can or would want to do even if tiressly promoted is kinda broken, I think the model is solid, but that's my opinion that seems to be being disproven by data. Perhaps if the model were imposed on a sport with a far lower barrier to entry and far better penetration worldwide, things could work?

Ippon... putting someone on their back, with force.
Can also be achieved from a strangle, choke, arm lock or pinning a fighter on their back for 30 seconds. Awesome sport.

If mountain/fell running was to be brought in, I fear it would be the softy version aka trail running on non technical/steep/rough terrain. Wouldn't be worth seeing.

Out - all sports - winter or summer - that have judges. At times judged events seem more like popularity contests, not athletic events even they do require high level athletic skills. I do appreciate athletic skillz required to do certain things however judging contains lot of objectivity.

Yesterday I watched BMX coverage first time in 20 years probably and I loved it. Paved track for BMX makes sense to me - it equalizes playing field for all the competitors and reduces luck factor because track might be uneven at certain spots or what not.

I tend to agree with reducing number of swimming events. Michael Phelps was proclaimed to be best swimmer ever in history but if you check where he medalled - he's only medals in free-style are in 200m. Every other medal is - in Cristina's terms - niche medal. Ian Thorpe on another hand medalled exclusively in free-stile swimming.

Some other Olympic athletes might be phenomenal in their sport but have only one chance to medal in their selected sport. For a record - I think Phelps is still phenomenal athlete but is he more phenomenal then - let's say Karch Kiraly who played volleyball at world's elite level still in his mid 40s.

Don't you guys watch NBC or listen to American media? Michael Phelps is the greatest Olympian in history. There is no comparison.

Yeah - unfortunately I do watch tape-delayed, soap-opera scripted, often incompetent color commentator commented, commercial filled Olympic coverage by NBC targeted for desperate house wives. "Thanks, Mom"

Squash should be in, it's significantly bigger and more global than orienteering

Isn't squash a winter sport?

I am so happy that they have Ryan Seacrest as part of the show, too.

In - summer: Rugby

Rugby Sevens will be there in 2016. For inclusion in the Olympics, the Rugby Sevens folks basically said, "We'll get rid of our quadrennial world cup if we're in the Olympics."

I really like this approach. If the Olympics is not the sport's biggest international stage, then that sport doesn't belong. Therefore, I'd remove soccer (World Cup). I also wouldn't have a problem removing tennis or golf (joining in 2016) because they already have enough high-profile events (4 annual majors in each).

I'd also say that sports must be completely human-powered, so that would eliminate equestrian, shooting, sailing, and modern pentathlon.

I'd raise my eyebrows at trampoline, rhythmic gymnastics, synchronized anything, since they are all judged sports and seem weird to me. But that's just me.

I don't have a problem with "too" many swimming and athletics events. Yeah, there are a lot, but there have always been a lot. Racewalking is like the breaststroke of running. And there are four types of things to throw (spears, balls, balls on ropes, and discs). Plus rowboats of different sizes, sailboats of different sizes, four types of biking surfaces, different types of wrestling, different methods of lifting weights, and different types of fencing swords.

Additions? Squash and karate seem like good fits because of what's already in the Olympics. Sport climbing and orienteering seem like they could go in together as "terrain sports" or something.

Also, there should be an orienteering/volleyball/softball triathlon, so that I could be an Olympian!

Out:
Boxing - because it's a barbaric concept (not saying it's not entertaining; just don't support a 'sport' based on punching each other).
Race walking - because it's silly (if you want to get somewhere fast you run; you don't walk).

I'm not taking sides on whether race walking should be in the Olympics or not, but another point of view (somewhat analogous to upnorthguy's comment) is that a contest to see how fast you can walk is like having a contest to see how loud you can whisper. (Plagiarized from a local sports commentator.)

After having watched too much Greco-Roman wrestling in the last week I'm completely convinced that it should be removed from the games. It's mostly just two guys pushing each other around and then waiting for luck of the draw to end the match. The freestyle can stay, it still seems to actually be somewhat about wrestling.

Also remove all the inferior swim-styles, it's the same people winning the medals anyway. Nobody is doing skijumping with parallell skis or roll and straddle highjumping anymore...

In: How about a 4x1500 meter relay? The games doesn't have any team event at all for middle/long-distance running.

Orienteers punch controls

I would definitely get rid of many of the gymnastic and swimming events, as they are all too similar to each other in the abilities required to perform at the highest level, and allow athletes to win too many medals, in comparison to other sports.

For proof, look at this list. Of the thirty athletes who have won the most Olympic medals all-time, twenty-one of them are gymnasts or swimmers. Ridiculous!

A friend of mine once had criertia for events that he'd toss out of the Olympics if he were king. I don't remember everything, but I'm pretty sure that he wanted to get rid of all judged sports and tournaments.

There are a number of things that I'd reform if I were in charge. I might go to four Olympic things, one every year: Summer, Winter, Judged, and Mental. Because people still want to watch figure skating and diving, and having a quadrennial games for things like bridge and chess would be fine. I'd also open the Winter games up to indoor sports that don't require it to be cold (e.g. weightlifting, basketball) to even things out.

Tug of war used to be in, but I think the problem is that it becomes degenerate, with matches that go on for hours with nobody moving. So you have to change it to be held on something like a metal surface, barefoot only.

If orienteering wants in, I think the approach will have to be to go for a single event. Trying to get multiple races in is asking too much, and won't happen. I think a coed relay would be the best bet, but a goat race would also have merit.

Modern Pentathlons has an Olympic pedigree that would make it hard to eliminate. From another web site.
"Modern Pentathlon was championed by Baron Pierre de Coubertin, the founder of the modern Olympic Games, and has its origins in a 19th-century legend. The story goes that a young French cavalry officer was sent on horseback to deliver a message. To complete his mission, he had to ride, fence, shoot, swim and run – the five challenges that face competitors in Modern Pentathlon today."

And the best argument I can find for the inclusion of judgement sports remains the opportunity for intelligent commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKFWE1xt_x0

I understand its technically and physically hard, but would anyone actually swim butterfly if it wasnt a racing technique?

I orienteer because I enjoy it. It is very unclear to me how having orienteering in the olympics, where it will be molded into something unrecognizable and violated in every imaginable way by the incompetence of television sports commentary, will add to my enjoyment of the sport.

If you think the Olympics wouldn't modify orienteering look at the BMX racing that took place at the Olympics this week . . .. on a paved surface!! Might as well put orienteering in a football stadium.
Sport to go - Tae kwon do. When I was a kid we were told that in our fights we should not kick. That's all they do.

Criteria for inclusion of a sport in the Olympics:

1. It has to be a sport that people would participate in even if it wasn't an olympic sport (e.g exit triple jump)
2. you have to raise a sweat doing it (e.g. exit all rifle shooting)
3. no subjectivity in determining the winner (exit gymnastics etc)
4. human powered only (e.g exit all equestrian sports)
5. the olympic games is the paramount competition for the sport (e.g. exit soccer)

Olympics include 26 sports and 302 finals.

Some disciplines in swimming and in other sports are very similar but each of 26 sports have better chance to include additional new discipline into Olympics.

Two reasons.
OUT - History and tradition is O.K. but sports with no recreational base would need to go one day because eventually sport will end up with very small base of good athletes and with only a few spectators.

IN - When one sport is included nobody wants to built expensive velodrome or sport hall just for one final, nobody wants to see athletes and especially stars just once and with more finals you sell more tickets and everyone are happy. I am wondering did someone need to buy a ticket to watch triathlon on London streets or it was needed just for the finish arena?

Shooting and TrailO comparision
Our Bronze medal winner in Men's 50m Rifle Prone is now 49years old and he already look into how to prepare for Rio 2016. He said that only age-sightedness can prevent him to practise this sport on high level. Judged events are far ahead of these remarkable athlete skills you need for shooting. I think if shooting can be Olympic discipline than we should push TrailO instead of FootO because you at least need also some other additional mental skills for top level compare to shooting. Shooting and Archery are probably the only two sports where human body is not so much important (decisive) and skills needed are not to difficult to learn and to maintain it on high level. So, body could stay "young and fresh" and that's why shooting is ideal sport if you want long lasting career for lets say 40 years. Great sport, like TrailO. In this context I remembered that someone has mentioned that all WOC runners should have alongside their profile also athletic's time on 5K, 10k, 21K, marathon. Yes and yes. We need to present athletics skills more to get new admirers and to inform others what is also needed to be good at high level in orienteering. It is not just mental sport.

Which sports and disciplines are our competitors for inclusion?
IOF says many times that orienteering will not be included before some other sports or disciplines go out from the games. So, which are the olympic sports and disciplines with the smallest number of athletes, country representations, expensive to organize, small audience and with small number of sold tickets, TV interest? Can orienteering match with these numbers, data?

The triathlon was mixed - some ticketed. I presume the temporary stands and finish arena, and some free.

Who has gone in and out in Olympic history. Here is an upadate report from IOC july 2012 and news about which 8 sports are running for 1 spot for 2020 Olympics. Squash produced a separate promotional page when seeking inclusion in 2009. http://squash2016.info/. Maybe IOF should do something about it too but on permanently base.

And here is one link how the new IOC inclusion system will work from 2020 onwards.

"A new system has been introduced, which consists of 25 core sports with three “floating” sports. The process is further complicated because, after next year's London Olympics, one of the 26 sports performed there will be cut from the list of core Olympic sports."

At this very moment, I'm thinking that rhythmic gymnastics should be cut, and replaced by distance running.

Wait, what? Distance running is already in the olympics you say? You say that the 5000m race is being run right now? Wouldn't have guessed it on NBC....

It was an absolutely awesome race! Slow start and killer last 2-3 laps.
The Canadian coverage gives viewers options to follow live feeds online of almost every sport.

NBC has a live internet feed, but it's blocked by my cable provider unless I purchase an upgraded cable TV plan.

I guess it's smart business to keep the real sports behind a paywall. And I would have even payed $5 or $10 to watch the race. But I'm not signing an annual contract.

Out - Marathon Swimming. Nothing really seems to happen until last 100 meters.

Seems like Orienteering has little chance of inclusion in the near future without doing something different. Maybe we should look to combine with Adventure Racing, Rogaining and Ultrarunning to get more clout with IOC. Orienteering offers an organization that has been around for fifty years and has a long standing relationship with the IOC while the others are relatively new.

Do we actually want orienteering to be in the Olympics just so it can go on almost everyone else's "sports that shouldn't be in the Olympics" list?

so true.

Maybe we should look to combine with Adventure Racing

... not unless you want a deadweight. Adventure Racing, as in the sport within its currently accepted paradigm, is a fad whose time came and went with Mark Burnett. Adventure racing (lowercase) is what orienteering is about; it should just say so.

1: Terrain running
2: Long distance swim at open water, mass start.

as for (1), not just easy grass running like traditional cross-country race, but muddy, hilly course that involves something else than just having a good running motor.
(2), there doesnt seem to be any endurance swims other than triathlon. Seems like winning time for most swims are less than 10minutes. could you imagine all running distances no longer than 5km?

Get rid of: Most of the indoor swimming (Seriously: 34 gold medals??). If you can win more than 3 medals, theres obviously too many distances.
+ Track and Field that involves throwing things. The only thing field does for track is distract viewers from the running events that are really exciting.

The rule of thumb I guess is getting rid of all sports that involves animals or costume changes.

Regarding 2: http://openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Olympic_...

How about adding 'Team Marathon'.

Use the XC running approach of adding the finish places of the top 3 runners. 1st=1, 2nd =2,... Lowest score wins.

Today's results would have resulted in:

1) Kenya
2) Brazil
3) Canada

;-)

Beside these 8 sports: baseball, karate, roller sports, softball, sports climbing, squash, wakeboard and wushu we are competing also to at least additional 4 sports: dance, bowling, surf and netball.
Chances of success are 1/13 = 7,6% or lower.

If we look from a positive side and we think that we deserve to be in the Olympics how our SWOT analysis will look like in comparision to other sports which are well ahead of orienteering and are in waiting room now?

"There needs to be exceptional circumstances for a core sport to be dropped from the program, such as a drug scandal, corruption or a massive drop in popularity."

One "all-round" IOC criteria which attracted my attention is POPULARITY! It would be interesting to know how this criteria is measured and what means "a massive drop". I suppose that criteria "drug scandals and corruption" will not prevent cycling and football to lose status of core sports.

I also think that IOF doesn't really know how popular is orienteering in each country and how we stand against those sports in each country. For Slovenia I can say that at least karate, sports climbing and dance are a lot more popular and more practised than orienteering. They also have better status and better financial support as a sport.

Many of you (including me) mentioned one of sport disciplines which should be first on OUT list:

- Race Walk (Athletics),
- Rhythmic Gymnastics (Gymnastics)
- Synchronized swimming (Swimming)
- Dressage (Equestrian)

or events:
Marathon swimming and reducing the number of events in one discipline (Swimming, Athletics,...)

and whole sports: Boxing, Wrestling and more radical proposal: all judged sports and tournaments. Other sports which might have (or it is just my imagination) the lowest chances to stay in the Olympics are: Modern Pentathlon, Wrestling, Archery, Hockey, Weightlifting.

Because Orienteering is a NEW sport only reduce of a few disciplines or events will not be enough for orienteering to go in. We can expect that in the near future Karate could go in instead of maybe - Wrestling. Kite surfing and wakeboard might go in under Sailing as NEW disciplines as this would be more easy way than NEW sport. And of course baseball/softball/ or squash might go in instead of Hockey tournament. Sport climbing might be good solution instead of Weightlifting.

So we end up with Archery and Shooting as both sports are very similar. Maybe our best chances are here as an outdoor sport. Maybe also under NEW Athletics discipline "Outdoor events" - Mountain running/Fell running and orienteering.

@hammer
Brazil seemed to do really well. Looks like they were the first guys with all team members in.
Fun fact: Ethiopia would be dead-last in team marathon. Who would have thought?

Tennis out.
worst olympic sport ever

syncronised swimming can stay in, its kinda the funny obscure sport that makes the olympics unique

@ Hammer re Team Marathon: in order to emulate other sports like Equestrian and Gymnastics you would need to have two marathon races - doesn't seem practical unless you double up on the number of runners per nation. Then nations would have the problem of deciding who runs in the team event and who in the individual.

All these people wanting to get rid of weight lifting and throwing sports: are you high? These are like the original sports!

Grog: Look, Zog, big rock!
Zog: Me lift rock over head, throw rock far!! How far you throw rock?

Off topic of this thread, but how about that men's volleyball match between Russia and Brazil? I turned it on when Brazil was up 2 games to zero, and ahead something like 22-16 in what would have been the deciding 3rd game had they won it, only to have Russia come back, win that game, and then the next two! Very exciting; amazing match on both sides. Yay Russia!

Back on topic: Rhythmic gymnastics HAS to go. I don't really like sync swimming either, but I can appreciate the amazing athletic ability of the sync swimmers. Rhythmic gymnastics is like sync swimming but without the impressive athletic ability needed for sync swimming.

I agree with only having sports where the Olympics are the pinnacle event -- therefore, no tennis or golf, or NBA players in the basketball competition.

I don't agree with eliminating any sport that requires judging. For the most part, I think the judges do a very fine job of making the best gymnast, diver, etc. the winner. There can certainly be controversies, but there are controversies in any sport that requires officials making judgments. (Controversial calls in soccer, etc.)

I think squash would be an excellent addition -- played in a lot of countries, clearly requires a high level of athletic ability.

It was pointed out that some of the Russian volleyball teams line-ups were taller than US basketball teams average height.

> (Controversial calls in soccer, etc.)

Yes Canada is well aware of that from these recent Olympics.

And interesting judging deprived Victoria Pendleton of at least one medal in the track cycling...

All these people wanting to get rid of weight lifting and throwing sports...

Tradition sometimes needs to go in the museum :)
Who really watch weightlifting, wrestling and how healty are these sports? Maybe they will preserve only Modern Pentathlon on the long run as a sport which embodies the idea of Olympics and others will have to prove its popularity. In 21st century is no need anymore to prove who is the strongest.

Rhythmic gymnastics any sync swimming are ideal sports to target specific fimale audience and I doubt that this group could be satisfied with orinteering.

I have to stick up for weight lifting. So long as they keep there house in order dopping wise it's a perfectly good sport for the Olympics. Simple enough rules and equipment to be cheap and accesible world wide. Watching on TV is not so bad, there is some tension and drama and you can work out how has won yourself.

If I was making changes it would be out with dressage, rythmic gymnastics and synchronised swimming. In would be Squash, and an Iorn-man triathalon distance with no drafting. No O....

Leave in weightlifting (as long as people hold their tongues about their opinions of the lifter's appearance). I'll never forget Vasiliy Alexeyev in the 1972/76 Olympics.

I heard a suggestion recently that all of the judged sports should be altered to work like H.O.R.S.E. basketball (definitely a favorite in my neighborhood growing up, at least). A gymnast or a diver does his/her thing, then says, "Okay, now you do it", and if the others can't do it they get an "H". Challenges continue until all but one athlete has spelled horse and been eliminated.

In 21st century is no need anymore to prove who is the strongest.

Really? This seems like the whole point of the Olympics. Maybe there's no need to prove who is fastest, either. A contest to see who can pick up the biggest rock seems like something that is unassailable. Weightlifting is one of the last things I would get rid of.

On the other hand -- Diving? (As an example.) I watched diving the other night. A bunch of guys doing not quite the same thing, one at a time, and without the commentary, I would have no idea who was doing it well and who was not. There are a lot of things that are worth doing in this world that don't seem well-suited to the Olympics. I'd put Diving in the same category as Guitar Solo. Both take skill and prowess, but...

When "popularity" comes up as a criterion, I have to wonder how much it's a question of how many people like to participate in the sport, as opposed to how many like to watch it. The number of people who do Skeleton, Ski Jumping, Hammer Throw, and Pole Vault has got to be pretty small. Although the latter two seem like pretty decent Olympic events.

(Would the "human powered" criterion that some mentioned above eliminate half of the Winter Olympics?)

Keep weightlifting. One of the things I like about it is that the winners are often from nations who don't win a ton of medals overall.

Ditch the synchronised drowning. Those girls spend so much time making themselves look pretty and then bring it all down with nose plugs. WTF? Plus, surely a major criteria for the inclusion of any sport in the Olympics in this day and age would be no gender exclusion.
If we have to have synchronised swimming, let's see the blokes in the budgie smugglers! :-)
and, no, there is no indication of an "inclination" in these remarks

And the same goes for Weightlifting. Very small number of people practicing this sport on elite level and probably it is not a worldwide sport. Maybe there are other interest behind this sport which makes this sport on recreational level a big business. And I also haven't seen any World cup or World champs on TV so far. I just wanted to say that these might be the "popularity" factors why Weightlifting could be one of the sports to go out.

And we already have shooting which symbolize the military power aka "who is the strongest". As one of our commentators said: This is the first event (medals) on the Olympic programme and this is not by coincidence. It gives a clear message to the global audience (by the corporations) that Olympic games are peaceful games but we have tons of bombs ready.

I also don't understand why we need both Diving and Trampoline events as they look very similar. But if you need to pick one of the sport (with Olympic criteria about sex, tradition, VIP interest, etc in mind) among: Rhythmic Gymnastics, Synchronized swimming, Equestrian and Weightlifting which one would you choose? Ask women and you will get half of the answer.

Hopefully we won't see the women weightlifters smuggling budgies any time soon.

Baseball, basketball, golf, tennis. If the Olympics isn't your major trophy, don't waste every one else's time.

Let's get rid of the 'Coach is Boss' sports like Basketball and Volleyball - or alternatively change the rules so that once the match starts the coach has no influence, ie cannot swing personnel changes or call timeouts.

@kofols:

With all due respect, are you really as sexist as you sound?

"But if you need to pick one of the sport (with Olympic criteria about sex, tradition, VIP interest, etc in mind) among: Rhythmic Gymnastics, Synchronized swimming, Equestrian and Weightlifting which one would you choose? Ask women and you will get half of the answer"

"Rhythmic gymnastics any sync swimming are ideal sports to target specific fimale audience and I doubt that this group could be satisfied with orinteering."

or do you just harbor notions that make the world seem a pretty crazy place:

"It gives a clear message to the global audience (by the corporations) that Olympic games are peaceful games but we have tons of bombs ready."

C'mon. Really???

Sort of apropos this subject, if a bit rambling, this article is interesting. He may really be onto something about the downstream effects of Title IX and how it has played into Olympic outcomes. I hadn't connected the dots before.

So the Olympics is about satisfying an audience (and being concerned about target markets at that) rather than providing a venue and opportunity to determine who is the best in the world? Kinda puts it up there with WWF or Idol.

Equity is more about the money and resources made available for training and racing and the US certainly has a lot of that through the TV deals with the Olympics and the NCAA programs. Satisfying an audience then becomes important for keeping those TV deals or increasing their value. Several people have mentioned reducing the number of medals in track and the pool but that ain't gonna happen if that is where the US gets most of their medals and where the Olympics gets its biggest TV deal. (the US did not win most gold medals in the previous two Olympics).

Conversely, if the U.S. isn't winning, we kinda don't want your sport. Keep training!

So, basically "If the US is good, keep the sport! If the US is bad, we don't want the sport!"

I don't think that the numbers will bear this out...

Simmo: "Coach is Boss" is really just a matter of tradition. I've seen handball games where the coach would call a timeout just to let the players talk to each other. The team manager can choose whatever style of leadership they want, and if you believe your players are smarter than you, then just let them make all the decisions. The only real reason there is a coach in these sports is because someone has to be responsible on the bench and it can't be one of the players.

Women's softball was eliminated mainly because it was felt the US was too good at it, so I definitely don't buy the theory that if the US isn't good at it, the sport isn't going to be in the Olympics. Plus that wouldn't explain badminton and table tennis being in the Olympics (both of which I think belong), or a lot of other sports that we're pretty incompetent at (compared to other countries).

Lots of the people here probably have a bias towards sports where the competitors are skinny and where you break a sweat.

If you went to a forum where people cared about, e.g., strength training (which I sometimes do), the attitude is more like: pffft, marathon runners, you can barely tell those people from famine victims! That's not a sport.

Ok, let's look at the last 20 years of Olympic sport additions and subtractions.

New Sports:
BMX (2008)
Trampoline (2000)
Taekwando (2000)
Triathlon (2000)
Beach Volleyball (1996)
Mountain Biking (1996)
Badminton (1992)
Canoe slalom (1992)

Collectively, all of these sports add 27 medal events.

Of those new sport additions, the US has won the following %'s of the medals:
Beach Volleyball: 30% (9 of 30)
BMX: 25% (3 of 12)
Taekwando: 7% (8 of 112)
Mountain Biking: 7% (2 of 30)
Canoe Slalom: 6% (4 of 72)
Triathlon: 4% (1 of 24)
Trampoline: 0% (0 of 24)
Badminton: 0% (0 of 91)

Now let’s take a look at the 8 new medal events to the swimming and athletics sports, which have been historically dominated by the US.

Men’s 10km Marathon Swim (2008)
Women’s 10km Marathon Swim (2008)
Women’s Steeplechase (2008)
Women’s Pole Vault (2000)
Women’s Hammer Throw (2000)
Women’s 4x200 Freestyle Swim (1996)
Women’s Triple Jump (1996)
Women’s 20km Walk (10km in 1992, increased to 20km in 2000)

And here are how many medals the US has won in these events:
Women’s 4x200 Freestyle Swim 33% (5 of 15)
Women’s Pole Vault: 25% (3 of 12)
Women’s 10km Marathon Swim: 17% (1 of 6)
Women’s Steeplechase: 0% (0 of 6)
Women’s Hammer Throw: 0% (0 of 12)
Women’s Triple Jump: 0% (0 of 15)
Women’s 20km Walk: 0% (0 of 18)
Men’s 10km Marathon Swim: 0% (0 of 6)

Subtracted Sports:
Baseball (2008)
Softball (2008)

Here are the %'s of medals won by the US in each sport:
Softball: 33% (4 of 12)
Baseball: 20% (3 of 15)

------

In the past 20 years, the US has won 11.0% of all medals won (510 of 4619). Looking at the above percentages, there are definitely new sports and medals in which the US excels (Beach Volleyball, Women’s 4x200 Swim, Women’s Pole Vault, and BMX). But there are also many more sports in which the US has never medaled.

Summer Olympic Medals 1992-2012:
11.0% Medals won by US in all sports (510 of 4619)
06.8% Medals won by US in new sports (27 of 395)
10.0% Medals won by US in new medal events in swimming and athletics (9 of 90)
25.9% Medals won by US in eliminated sports (7 of 27)

Basically, the US’s medal-winning average has decreased due to new sports, eliminated sports, and new events in swimming and athletics. Looking ahead, Rugby Sevens and Golf will be added as new sports in 2016. The US wouldn’t be expected to medal in Rugby Sevens, having never reached the knockout stages in any of the 4 world cups 1997-2009. However, the US would be expected to do well in golf, having won 47 of the last 84 major championships from 1992-2012.

I just found out that Modern Pentathlon competition in London Olympics used laser pistols. That's pretty modern if you ask me...

A lot of people say that sports where the Olympics isn't the major championships shouldn't be in it.

Would the bastardised version of orienteering that would suit the Olympics be the major competition, or would people still consider orienteering in forests the real deal?

Ooh, I have been proven wrong numerically. That's awesome! (but shouldn't be an excuse not to train).

I agree that sports where the Olympics isn't the holy grail should be dropped...but that would mean men's road cycling should go as well, because TDF would still be the most prestigious event to win. That would be a bit of a bummer but it would be a fair deal just to see tennis dropped. No, I don't hate tennis but simply do not believe any of these guys would swap a lone major for an Olympics. I also reckon Roger let Andy win or at least didn't have the heart (desire) to beat him - what a nice guy.

Whatever happened in the Olympics, Federer is one of my very favorite athletes--for so many reasons.

There is push to include Basketball 3-on-3 in next Olympics.

http://olympics.yardbarker.com/blog/olympics/artic...

I played in two 3-on-3 tournaments in Latvia just before moving to US. It was blast from players perspective! I certainly would not mind seeing it in Olympics.

I'd be in favor of 3-on-3 basketball replacing regular basketball, and also stipulate that no current NBA players are eligible. (Using the argument that the Olympic BB championship isn't as important to any NBA players as the NBA championships. But probably for any people playing in other basketball leagues, even professional ones, the Olympics would supersede any other type of championship.)

If you're going to have a sport in the Olympics, it seems to me that the point is the find the very best in the world at that sport...and thus it's hard to justify keeping people out.

Ah, the old cycling debate. Don't compare stage races to one day races, they are not the same and cannot be compared. The Tour de France is the king of stage races. But there is also the World Champs, and the spring classics as well. An the Olympics is right up there as a one day race. It suffered because of the amateurism rules back in the day, but look at the start lists in recent Olympics. The thing wrong is the lack of people allowed to ride. A lot like other sports.

@Nixon

I'm happy you have an arguable reason to keep the men's road race in. I was not wanting it to go. You do however say it is "right up there", and many still like it to be an absolute pinacle. What is that pinacle now for a single stager? Paris-Roubaix? (I wouldn't know)

@j-man; -1
Of course you might get this impression. Perhaps you did not understand the whole context in which I wrote these 3 sentences.

1) Many women like these two sports (Rhythmic Gymnastics, Sync swimming) which are the only women's sports in the Olympics. And many people here have expressed their opinion that both sports should go out. So, did you forget to label them as sexist? I hope you are not saying that we need men's Rhythmic Gymnastics, Sync swimming, too. In my opinion I just used 3 most mentioned sports in this thread and my choice - weightlifting. So if men and women must pick one of these sports to go out what would be the result? And... if you ask women... you read wrong. The question means that we should respect women even if these too sports are totally unacceptable by the men. So if large % of women would say that Rhythmic Gymnastics and Sync swimming must go than....
Maybe it would be interesting to see how differently men and women rank Olympic sports by importance, popularity, etc.

2) Yes, women taste for sports is different.
It would be interesting to have cross-table to see which 5 to 10 sports someone like if his/her first sport is orienteering or Rhythmic gymnastics or weightlifting.
I just expressed my opinion that maybe woman who likes Rhythmic gymnastics probably will not watch TV and TV commercials during orienteering event.

And
3) It is not my statement. It was made by one of sports philosopher.

So, are you nationalist? Probably not but you sound like you are.

What would be wrong with men's rythmic gymnastics? Just ask Usain. He would say he's got a lot of rythym as well as being a legend.

Nothing. But I like men's sports and I have only one parfum, one gillette and I don't use make-up. Maybe P&G has the same wish, who knows.

@Leepback

Year on year the worlds is the pinnacle, then I'd say Parsid-Roubaix, Flanders and Milan-Sanremo are all equal.

It's hard to put the Olympics in a place as it's so infrequent. I'd say above classics but below Worlds. But I think that's a good thing.

If Olympics is the be all and end all of a sport, then that sport only comes into public attention every 4 years. That's not good. The general public don't take the World Athletics champs seriously, although last year Mo Farah was getting some good coverage.

I think Olympivs should massively important in the sports, but they should have something to carry them over. And what about someone who gets injured? 7 years with nothing to aim for?

I'm not convinced that the Olympics is the pinnacle for any but a few sports. It's an oddball big deal that happens a few times during an athlete's competitive career. But it is what the general public is most aware of because of how it's packaged.

This could make for an interesting list. Pink socks?

A nationalist? For shame!

My issue with judged sports - such as gymnastics, diving, half-pipe, mogul skiing, most of X-game sports - is that what is the next level at sports mentioned. Let's look at half-pipe. When sport was just in it's infancy it was probably good enough to make it to the finish line to win such event (ok... intentional exaggeration here to make a point). These days if you can't match Sean White's death defying trick you have no chance - competitor has to go up 20 feet up in the air, make triple somersault while grabbing board with one hand, pants with another hand repeated 8 different times at high speeds. Sean White set current standard and I would not be surprised that other competitors will be matching most of his tricks by next Olympics. Then somebody else will have to come up with even crazier and more dangerous tricks to stand out. It's the same in gymnastics but not to such extent as in half-pipe. When Nadia Comăneci's first perfect 10 was broadcasted few times during Olympics my thought was that these days she would not get out of qualifying rounds with her routine.

There is no doubt that it does require top level athleticism, years of dedication to get to that level but I would argue that circus acrobats need to have the same type of athleticism and dedication.

Kofols is making me angry.

@Gil
That sounds like 'faster, higher, stronger' to me.

@Whitesheep - not exactly. In any Olympics other sport 'faster, higher, stronger' does not translate into 'more dangerous'

I didn't want to be rude but I have only returned echo back to your statement that I'm sexist. No one can't fight with stereotypes so you should not use it if you can't stand behind it.

"We develop stereotypes when we are unable or unwilling to obtain all of the information we would need to make fair judgments about people or situations."
How and why are stereotypes formed?
https://www.msu.edu/course/psy/442/stereotypes.ppt...
http://remember.org/guide/History.root.stereotypes...

Back to thread: Check Hammer's post. It is great.

" No one can't fight with stereotypes so you should not use it if you can't stand behind it. "

I have no idea which of the potential meanings of this statement you agree with.

From what I understood, kofols was recognising that there are differences in the taste of men and women, and was proposing not discriminating against women. You may disagree with his conclusions, but I don't think there was anything evil in what he said.

@becks, @j-man and @kofols - please let it go. What I am seeing here is stuff lost in translation.

ndobbs and Gil, I agree with you both, and this will be my final line on the matter.

Argh want to type more but won't. If kofols would kindly refrain from making anymore statements about women not liking weightlifting I would be much happier. I know many women who can probably clean twice the weight he can. I know no rhythmic gymnasts, although there is a guy at cross fit that can do handstand press ups.

I can't fight against @j-man first statement which started all this misunderstanding, but with no answer it would be like he is right. An apology to j-man and others to say a word nat........ I am definately not stand behind it because I don't know him and I wrote this just to give him a similar strong feellings about how I feel when he said s.....

@Cristina... were you looking for a list of which Olympic sports for which the Olympics is the pinnacle? There are so many competing conversations here...

Yep, though the list would clearly include some subjectivity. I'm sure some here could do it mostly off the top of their head.

On a related note--since I am always asked this, and have to wing it--can someone please refer me to an explanation of why orienteering isn't in the Olympics, or the corollary--the requirements for a sport to be included? I know it is somewhere on AP.

It would probably easier to list the sports where it is not the pinnacle.

@j-man Its not in the olympics because it never successfully applied.
It is recognised by the IOC as a sport (along with chess, powerboating and 30-odd others). We never even got to the first stage (demonstration status), unlike lifesaving, ballooning, La canne, kaatsen, glíma and budo.

Incidently, kitesurfing isn't a new olympics sport, it's a new discipline of sailing.

graeme--can you explain further? Is it really due to lack of concerted effort? We never applied? My sense is that there is a received wisdom that we are not worthy/eligible, so certain prerequisites need to be achieved first. Is that a misapprehension? Are we really mostly lacking audacity? That would be a shame, but not surprising.

1980 "Miracle on ice" is still hugely celebrated hockey moment, as well as Summit Series of 1972 talked not just by hockey fans. I am willing to bet that 99 out of 100 surveyed could not tell who won Stanley cup in 1972 and 1980.

Olympic hockey might not be pinnacle of the sport for US and Canadian professional hockey players but Olympic Hockey (and World Championships) is huge deal for Latvian national team players - including Latvian players who play in NHL. Latvian team has not been contender for medals however occasional national team wins against hockey mega-powers were hugely celebrated in Latvia not just by hie-hard hockey fans (in 1998 3:2 win against US; in 2000 3:2 win against Russia; TBD against Canada:) ).

I cannot speak first hand but I can only speculate that 2004 Olympic basketball wins against US were celebrated in Puerto Rico, Lithuania and Argentina. I happen to follow basketball but I don't even remember who won NBA title in 2004 but I will always remember that 2004 was first Olympic year when NBA pro based US national team lost.

Pinnacle of Golf are major championships however Ryder cup and Solheim Cup get similar TV coverage as any of majors.

Fabio Cacelara has extensive collection of TDF yellow jerseys however it was clear that he wanted badly to win road race at London Olympic. For latest TDF winner Bradley Wiggins' six Olympics golds served as spring-board to his professional. Similarly for many Latvian hockey players Olympics are opportunity to showcase their talent which for individual athlete is as important as representing their country in Olympics.

Seems like only in tennis Davis cup does not get as much attention as French Open, US Open, Wimbledon and Australian Open.

I think I listed enough examples to illustrate why removing "none-pinnacle" sports from Olympics might not be such a good idea.

There are some prerequisites to being in the Olympics.

One is to have a governing body officially recognized by the IOC. The IOC recognizes the IOF, and therefore orienteering is a sport. (Unlike, say, ultimate frisbee, which is not recognized.) Most officially recognized sports that aren't in the Olympics compete in the World Games.

Next up is participation.

For the Summer Olympics, a sport needs to be widely practiced in 75 countries across 4 continents. For the Winter Olympics, it's 25 countries and 3 continents.

However, just because you meet that criteria, doesn't get you in. For the Summer Olympics, the IOC wants to keep a limit of 28 sports, 300 events, and 10,000 athletes. There were 26 sports in 2012, but all 28 spots will be taken in 2016 (golf and rugby sevens). For 2020, there's a short list possible additions: baseball, karate, roller sports, softball, sports climbing, squash, wakeboard and wushu. However, any addition would require a subtraction elsewhere.

The Winter Games are different story, though, as there's no published maximum of sports, events, and athletes. In 2005, the IOC confirmed that Ski Orienteering would be considered to be included in 2014; however, they decided in 2006 not to include any new sports.

Basically, it's easier to get into the Winter Olympics, and it looks like the IOF has already pushed for that, and been denied. However, that was 6 years ago, so maybe another push could get us in for 2022.

"For the Summer Olympics, a sport needs to be widely practiced in 75 countries across 4 continents."

Is this actually for being in the Olympics, or for new sports to get in? I'm obviously extremely biased, but seems to me like there are currently several sports in the Olympics that don't fulfill this requirement... that are less widely practiced than orienteering.

Surely modern pentathlon is widely practiced.

Some complain that a sport where Olympics is the clear-cut pinnacle is not healthy.

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/...

No matter where you stand, the grass looks greener somewhere else. Except that the green in people's eyes is not really grass.

@socks--excellent summary. Thanks.

But, that does beg the question, as pi + Cristina note--about this widely practiced thing. Surely more people do orienteering recreationally or competitively than many Olympic sports. How can that not be the case?

Also, something else I found after I wrote the above post, is that 40 countries across 3 continents is enough to suffice for women's sports. I also didn't find anything specific about how sports get subtracted. There is some shroud of secrecy.

Here's what IOC-head Jacques Rogge said about reinstating baseball:

"To be on the Olympic program is an issue where you need universality as much as possible. You need to have a sport with a following, you need to have the best players and you need to be in strict compliance with WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency). And these are the qualifications that have to be met. When you have all that, you have to win hearts. You can win the mind, but you still must win hearts."

Baseball suffers from being in the summer when MLB players are playing. I know that the NHL and WNBA have breaks in their seasons during the Olympics to ensure that the best players play.

I also read that Rogge tried to get baseball, softball, and modern pentathlon removed back in 2002. The baseball/softball verdict came in 2005.

Also: It looks like September 2013 is when the IOC will vote to remove Modern Pentathlon and replace it with one of the following: baseball, karate, roller sports, softball, sports climbing, squash, wakeboard and wushu.

Looks like Modern Pentathlon is the low-hanging fruit.

Let's take a look at how we stack up against Modern Pentathlon.

National Federations (with websites*)
47 for Orienteering
41 for Modern Pentathlon

The continental breakdown is pretty similar: overwhelmingly European, plus the usual suspects on the other continents: USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Japan, China, Korea, Brazil, etc.

*It's 2012. If you don't have a website, you don't exist to me. For kicks, I clicked on the IOF's link for Cyprus, and it took me to the mountaineering and sport climbing federation, which has no references to navigation, etc.

Facebook Pages
15,943 likes for Orienteering
33,179 likes for Modern Pentathlon

Athletes with World Rankings
2025 men, 1090 women for Orienteering
267 men, 198 women for Modern Pentathlon
I have no idea is this is apples to apples.

Annual International Events
Junior, Youth, Senior, Masters World Champs, 5 rounds of World Cup, plus "Champion of Champions" for Modern Pentathlon

Junior, Senior, Masters World Champs, 4 rounds of World Cup for Orienteering

Also, Modern Pentathlon has a Biathle, which is running+swimming, which is just a lame version of a triathlon, or a pentathlon without any of the James Bond stuff.

One more... Google Trends.

USOF (predecessor to OUSA) did extensive effort to get into the Salt Lake winter Olympics. At one point we as good as were approved to use the same venue used for the crosscountry ski races, but they required that we come up with a significant cash contribution (at least $1 million, although it may have been more - my memory is inexact). As far as I remember, if we could have come up with that much cash, we could have been in at least as a demonstration sport.

I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member, unless the membership fee were disgustingly high?

One thing which might help in the long run is IOF's World games participation rules. IOF must try to raise max. 40 participants to at least 50 or 60 participants. How we end up with 40 in the first place? In my opinion it would be better to have only 2 disciplines with 60 than 3 with 40.

Our NOC supports World games and if we could send the best athlete to WG this would be huge recognition for orienteering in our country. WG athletes and games already get some media lights but WOC it is still in dark.

So, somehow we have to figure out how big is our potential world-wide audience and also how big is orienteering audience in each IOF member country. TV, web, mobile, etc. It all counts. We can't just wait 3-5-10 years to get into major broadcast systems. TOP Olympic sponsors needs to know this before 106-member International Olympic Committee vote to include Orienteering.

Today it is very rarely that WOC organizers or IOF present these data. SUI published TV data for SUI but I am more interested in webpage data because it gives very good information about world-wide interest for elite orienteering.
http://www.woc2012.ch/en/news/108-up-to-25-percent...

I think it would be more interesting to see the merger of some of the more marginal sports rather than the removal of them. For instance wrestling is about as boring as watching sap flow and cross country running cant make it to the olympics because nobody from outside Africa can make the top 20..
however something like full contact cross country would level the playing field for some of the more buxom countries and holy shit it would make for some exciting viewing.

Seriously though I cannot see how Orienteering could justify an olympic spot whilst the sport remains so euro dominated that switzerland can come 1,2 and 3 in the mens WOC sprint (supposedly the most spectator friendly format) and win the womens gold too. If sprint orienteering ever made it to the olympic demonstration stage and that happened it would be the last time the phrase Olympic Orienteering was ever used. Countries like the US, China, Australia, South Africa and Brazil need to be realistic gold medal chances before the sport considers promoting itself for inclusion in the olympics.

full contact cross country running....would make for some exciting viewing

ToughMudder into the Olympics !!!!

I was reading about how new Olympic sports get selected and the factor that is not discussed in this thread is name recognition of the sport. If I understand it correctly IOC consists of 105 members, 1-2 members per country (countries ever hosted Olympics allowed to have 2 members).

Based on my experience not too many folks outside of orienteering community knows what orienteering is in Northern America. 90% of those folks associate orienteering as a scout activity, other 9% think it's some kind of treasure hunt activity, remaining 1% think that orienteering is related to hash harriers (to which I reply orienteering is worse - we do the same as hash harriers but at the end we don't drink... but that's another story for another time).

I was ready to punch my co-worker recently because of orienteering. Every time I left early to help with orienteering camp or to participate at bi-weekly orienteering training he asked where I am going to which I replied every time that I am helping out with orienteering camp and explained what it is. Next morning he'd ask me "how was your orientation yesterday". For crying out laud, dude! it's been six weeks and you did not get name of the activity right, yet! (Maybe I should have roughed him up so he remembers what is "O-R-I-E-N-T-E-E-R-I-N-G" for rest of his life and at the chance if I get arrested and get in local news orienteering would get some local news exposure....). I have had another similar incidents - maybe not as annoying as the last one - where different folks would ask about orienteering, I'd explain them once, twice, three, etc. times but whenever they meet me next time they think that I am that crazy guy who drinks water from marshes.

Chances are that IOC representative to countries that are not orienteering mega-powers have the same scewed view about the orienteering and why would they vote to include scouting activity or treasure hunt or Hashing or "orientation" into Olympics and watch some crazies re-hydrating from marshes.

As far as name recognition goes bowling has lot better chances of being included in Olympics then orienteering. Similarly I am willing to bet that there are lot more regular folks who have heard something about "modern pentathlon" then orienteering even facebook likes ratio is 1:2 in favor of orienteering.

@Gil
I was also looking into structure of IOC. Membership as you mentioned was changed in the last 10 years. Now they have four classes of membership.
Check under membership

In general:
- The total number of IOC members may not exceed 115 (currently 109)
- 15-member Executive Board
All about IOC organization and who's who.

I have checked for my country and we don't have anyone on power. If we want to play hard we should know that. Is anyone in these committees fan or have any relation to orienteering? Who are our friends? Who we know or who are our closest representatives? How many friends have new IOF president between those folks? A lot of questions to be asked our new president when he will mention Olympic goals again.

In addition I read that new sports need first to go on Executive board (check in previous posts which 8 sports are on this stage of the process). Executive board could made a short list and than IOC members make the final decision. From 2020 onwards will be new rule: "New sports will be included or others dropped by a simple majority vote (compared to currently requiring a 2/3’s majority)."

I don't know how far Ski-O has come but FootO is still in the documents and trying first to meet all requirements. Beside 75 countries I don't know where orienteering is short to meet these requirements.

Finally we come to the real hurdle - IOC politics. Anyone read "Lords of the Rings"? Orienteering has no realistic chance of ever getting enough IOC votes and I don't think the sport should debase itself trying to get them.

Hear, hear.

I concur.

Orienteering has no realistic chance of ever getting enough IOC votes and I don't think the sport should debase itself trying to get them.

No one has managed to convince me that orienteering would benefit more from being in the OG than it would be harmed, and this should certainly receive many points on the "pain" side of the hedonic calculus calculations for this issue.

"Countries like the US, China, Australia, South Africa and Brazil need to be realistic gold medal chances before the sport considers promoting itself for inclusion in the olympics."

I don't think that this criteria play very important role. China is dominant in Table Tennis and you have some other olympic sports which have this geographical disproportionate distribution of medals (Athletics 5K, 10K,.... ). What is important and what IOC want to hear is: number of countries participaing in WOC, number of countries in the final, number of countries which organize national championships, etc

On the other hand we need a BIG audience in these countries even if their athletes can't bring home any medals. And also this could be solved on olympic manner with only 1 or max. of 2 athletes per country and qualification rules which include athletes from all continents. Check women's Mountain Bike event with only 30 athletes. Today's orienteering World Games rules are very close to that.

@O-ing
I think IOF know that very well but play this game just for the sake to achieve other goals. As non-commercial sport we can't allow ignorance with - our WOC will always be above Olympics. Which world-wide corporations - potential sponsors (exclude football) want to be present in a sport with no Olympic ambitions! We should keep this for ourselves and sell only what we need to get better access to IOC & national funds, sponsors and media. Orienteering is considered to be a sport for smart people so we can hope that our IOF representatives are smart enough and know how to play 2 different games at the same time.

My intuition is that IOF is too much open, honest, truthful and fair to the IOC to be able to pull the right move at the right time. Like David in the battle with Goliath.

it is important for not to be dominated by just one or two smaller countries.
Table Tennis is largest participation sport in the biggest country in the world, it can afford to be dominated by one country because even if the final is played between two guys from the China there will still be 100,000,000+ TV viewers in that country tuning in.
Orienteering on the other hand isnt the most popular sport in any country, it is very much a marginal niche sport. not many people outside of europe know what it is let alone care enough to watch it on the TV. the only way you will get television audiences tuning in from china and the US (and they are the audiences you want) is if athletes from those countries are gold medal chances. christ, i tune in to watch rowing if i think australia might win a medal and that sport as about interesting to watch as a game of noughts and crosses.
if the sport wants to be part of the olympics (whether this would benefit the sport or not is another question) it needs to have medal prospects from both China and the US.

"the only way you will get television audiences tuning in from china and the US (and they are the audiences you want) is if athletes from those countries are gold medal chances."
Do you know any NBC data or AUS data?
It would be interesting to know this correlation and how strong really is in each country. Yes, it is normal that number of viewers goes up when home athletes have good chances to win but for marketing and sales it is more important how stable this audience is in both cases. If you have enough viewers you don't need these "national peaks" and people who don't have any strong preferences are the best buyers. On the other hand many sports could be infront of orienteering just because people can understand them no matter who have the best chances to win. I also can't watch many sports like: sailing (almost medal for us), diving, shooting (medal for us), equestrian,... but they get their viewers somehow. In near future (or it was possible already) you will be able to decide which olympic sport you would like to watch on TV in the case of overlapping and TV Ratings will be very clear for each sport. Maybe TV will lose importance and whole audience will shift to computers, tablets and phone apps.

And what could be our potential orienteering world-wide audience? I think beside orienteers we must take into account also large groups who practice mountaineering, hiking, trail running + scouts.

So we come back to popularity. Orienteering is very popular in SUI but we still don't know nothing about China, US, Australia, South Africa and Brazil. At least I haven't read any official reports with realistic numbers. So, does orienteering posses any magical atributions which might give viewers reason to watch TV, to watch orienteering sport drama? "We" are very confident that we have it more than other sports and IOF know that this might take several years or decades that people will have interest to watch orienteering also outside EU but they are very optimistic. Do they have numbers and we don't?

Lumberjacking isn't in the Olympics but have HUGE tv deals. Obstacle running isn't in the Olympics and gets 10,000 per race. Before the internet era and booming TV contracts the Olympics was needed to gain exposure so I can see why IOF moved that way. But I think what orienteering needs is TV exposure so I was happy to read somewhere recently that IOF is in talks with Eurosport (or did I imagine that). The Olympics would be great but there are other ways to grow the sport or perhaps other steps that should be undertaken first and getting rid of the 'stigma' that orienteering is an activity of just pace counting and compass games is v. important (esp. here in North America).

@Cristina - I am 50/50 about seeing orienteering in Olympics. Whoever pointed out that actually with help of latest technology orienteering could be made TV friendly - cams at each flag, GPS tracking. Even if orienteering is never included in Olympics effort to get orienteering in Olympics could expose orienteering to new audiences and increase popularity of the sport.

Olympics is money, money is development. A table scrap from USOC was enough to launch something as venerable as the 1000 Day.

So, after doing the research on this... orienteering in the Summer Games are completely out.

- There's too much politics.
- We don't have the name recognition.
- We don't have the money ($1 million for 2002).
- We don't have the required international participation (The IOF claims a lot more countries than are actively orienteering).

And, we'd have to replace an existing sport. As much as rational people want to see Rhythmic Gymnastics removed, it won't open up a new sport, because it's under the umbrella of gymnastics. Same with Synchronized Swimming (aquatics), Trampoline (gymnastics), Race Walking (athletics), and BMX (cycling).

So in order for orienteering to get in, it'd have to completely replace an entire sport. When the IOC meets next year, there's only one sport that they are considering for removal: modern pentathlon.

And fundamentally, orienteering is just like modern pentathlon. Both originated as military training exercises. Both have about the same international footprint, in both participation and geographical diversity (at least within an order of magnitude). Neither are easily understood by the average person (I quizzed my friends last night about what 5 sports were in the pentathlon, and none of them had any good guesses after running and swimming... and these were friends who claimed to have watched a lot of Olympics). Neither are really all that spectator-friendly.

So basically, we're just as "good" of a sport as modern pentathlon, and that's the first sport on the chopping block.

Instead of talking about where our sport doesn't fit in, what about where orienteering would fit in?

I've linked this before, but what about the Teva Mountain Games?

It's been around since 2005, there's a summer and winter version. There's already road biking, mountain biking, running, a mud run, sport climbing, kayaking, and others. Plus 2,500 athletes, prize money, sponsors (Garmin!), a gear show, and TV coverage. Sure, it's a much, much smaller exposure footprint, but it would be exposure to the people that already like to do stuff outside and get dirty.

Seems like it would a good fit for foot, bike, and ski orienteering. We've orienteered at ski areas before (Northstar and Whistler), so it seems like it would be within reach, right?

Looks like they already have things planned out for 2013. Orienteering at TMG in 2014?

I like it.

Yeah I agree with PinkSocks (always do though). Lumberjacking isn't in the Olympics but it is on TV a lot. Same for a lot of other sports and activities. Big sponsorship follows TV (and in some cases drives it or makes it possible).

In the pre internet and TV sports station explosion getting visibility really had to go thru the Olympics. Now there are other options. IOF should perhaps focus on getting a TV deal for a series of races. I recall reading that they were in discussions with EuroSport but for it to really take off in Nor-Am it needs to get onto one of the bigger networks. Perhaps IOF should make a deal with a media group that group taking the bulk of the advertising money they can raise through packaging some high profile races for live TV. Contract out the sport as an alternative to other shows. If it gets on TV in North America the sport will do quite well and the athletes will do better as well with sponsorship. Not enough money in the sport...yet.

I do to. I can't remember, was orienteering ever a component of similar events? (Like the Gorge Games, which went bankrupt about 5 years ago?)

Frankly, if the Olympics is the only way you can hope to thrive as a sport, you don't belong in the Olympics. Corollary: if you truly believe that orienteering deserves to be in the Olympics, than you believe that orienteering has enough inherent quality to succeed without the Olympics. So stop letting the barriers paralyze you, stop waiting for some IOC savior, and start figuring out how to shape this amazing raw material into a package that gets people excited. Do it well, and the Olympics will eventually come courting you.

Is it possible to think about a scheme where each orienteer in each country pay around 2-3 eur per year as additional membership fee and then using this budget to finance the production of WOC and WC races and to cover all broadcast costs. A very rough estimate: around 300.000 active registered orienteers world-wide. Private Orienteering TV channel (part of major cable networks) as an alternative option to Eurosport. All sponsorship money goes into this budget, too.

We are quite big target group for some international sponsors and it could be much better model for small countries to promote orienteering than model "pay on demand" like it was used for WOC 2012.

I've linked this before, but what about the Teva Mountain Games?

Most rational idea (and post) of the whole thread. I'd ask you to marry me if it wasn't for the whole pink socks thing.

Pink Socks has good ideas.

re: link between people watching and your country's chance of a medal - if you're in Australia it was pretty much only on TV if there was an Aussie with a chance of a medal. Our free to air coverage was woeful. So, for us at least, the link between medal chances and viewer numbers would have been strong :(

In last 24 years Table tennis (1988), Badminton (1992), Triathlon and Taekwondo (2000), Golf and Rugby (2016) were accepted as new olympic sports. All other sports were treated as new disciplines and events (governed by same international sport federation).

Summer Olympics
2016
- kiteboarding at the expense of windsurfing (men and women)
- Most probably: Basketaball (from 12 to16 teams and 3-on-3)
2012
- women’s boxing and tennis mixed doubles
2008
- women’s steeplechase
- BMX (men and women)
- Open water swimming 10k (men and women)
- Table tennis Team events (men and women) instead of doubles events
- In fencing, women's team foil and women's team sabre replaced men's team foil and women's team épée.
2004
For the first time, the wrestling category featured women's wrestling and in the fencing competition women competed in the sabre.

Winter Olympics
2014
- ski slopestyle (men and women)
- snowboard slopestyle (men and women)
- snowboard parallel special slalom (men and women)
- ski halfpipe (men and women)
- women’s ski jumping
- biathlon mixed relay
- figure skating team event
- luge team relay

The decision to include a discipline or event in the programme falls within the competence of the IOC EB. The inclusion of disciplines or events in the programme of any edition of an Olympic Games is decided by the IOC EB no later than three years before the opening of the Olympic Games.

Our chances as a sport are almost ZERO, probably also ZERO as a new discipline under FIS (SkiO) or IAAF (FootO). IAAF already has under its umbrella also non-olympic sports (cross-country and WMRA - mountain running) which mean to them a lot more than sport which is called orienteering. And in addition also IAU (International Association of Ultrarunners) want to come under IAAF.

This was mentioned before but it is worth to mention one more time. Olympics are looking for new trendy sports and our best chances are in the field of technology.

As other new trendy sports? as skateboarding, orienteering must also look how to fulfill two major issues which are:
- Sports also must demonstrate "added value" through potential new sponsors they'd bring or by increasing the Olympics' TV appeal.
- We need to find sports attracting ages between 16 and 24.

Here is a very good summary "Surfing in the Olympics" and we could see how International Surfing Association present Olympic ambitions to its members. IOF representatives should read it to learn how they should (must) communicate with its members.

Also keep the competition in mind. The mission statement of CMOUSA is "Our mission is to work towards the inclusion of Corn Maze Orienteering in the summer Olympic Games".

This must be fun. :-) I need to find a farmer next year with a good sense of humor.

1) Maybe is not true or it is just a coincidence but ALL Olympic sports seem to have standardized courses, playing fields, sports equipment,...

2) Maybe is not true or it is just a coincidence but surfing is left this thing "soul of surfing" aside and goes on with Wave parks.

3) Maybe is not true or it is just a coincidence but our true "soul of orienteering" should be keept inside of WOC programme and for Olympic games we just need a special Olympic format and I don't mind if we use any kind of Maze or trying with Orient-Show. When we will be able to propose additional o-disciplines than forest maybe could came back on the menu.

If we need/want money and Olympics are money before anything else why people think that OG will change our sport? It is just one event each 4 years? We should be more practical and stop complicate if we really want to skip some other sports.

So, forget about sprint, middle, mixed, urban, forest and find a way how to make a standardized competition o-arena. We only need an area which is 3-4x times bigger than Olympic Stadium. If Olympics can built a BMX course than it should be also possible to built an Orienteering Maze monument. And the legacy of orienteering would be an extra, cool, modern playing field for children and anti-stress area for people in big cities. Good opportunity also for Olympic's architects and it could be one of the most prestigious Olympic's buildings.Two in one: sport and recreational public facility.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by standardized courses, playing fields, etc., but if what you mean is that they are standardized across the world (so anyone coming from anywhere will have experience playing on that standardized field or whatever the sport is played on), that's definitely not the case.

A couple of examples to the contrary:

1. Downhill and XC ski racing.
2. White water rafting.
3. Mountain bike racing.
4. Bobsled, luge etc. racing.
5. Sailing (often wind and wave conditions that are specific to a locality).

The only factor which should be standardized is area in km2, let say 1,5 km2 and maybe some "guiding principles" for architects. All other things (objects, grass, paved areas, tress, paths, etc should be left to imagination. Some kind of public park in the form of imitation of nature so environment can accept this and can live its own life. More natural than artificial or man-made things. And free to enter, without any spectacular waterfalls or disney stuff. To give a small area back to nature. Sheikhs can build an new island so we should know how to revitalize a much smaller area.

All examples are very good; "standardized courses" but still very different at each Olympics.

I think this is an example of changing the sport so much that maybe we don't want to go there. No doubt there would be some new sources of funding of O were in the Olympics, but it probably be for this 'arena orienteering'. It sounds like it would be fun to do, but I'd rather keep the traditional stuff primary and stay out of the OG.

Standardised stadium O proposal:

0.1km, map: I
0.2km, map: U

There could be parallel courses, mass start knockout qualifiers, semis, finals... Jamaicans may win.

It would be way more intense then sending people out on a mountain for two and a half hours.

Golf, really?

Rugby sevens, either it the proper game or not, same issue with the U23 Male With Exceptions Football Tournament though the Female Tournament is not compromised.

How would orienteering - insert any sport you like - benefit? How would the average O punter benefit? Very little. How would those involved in the industrial side of sport benefit? Some would make a good living, very few probably and others would lead a grand life going from Conference to Conference far removed from the average punter. Or may be I am too cynical.

Politics, heard a radio news story including interviews from both sides about the inclusion of kite boarding and exclusion of windsurfing, sounds like a fine exercise in politics.

Add cross country running to the Winter Olympics.

I saw the end of the Modern Pentathlon in Sydney one feature I did like was the hare and hounds approach to the running, the leader going into the running has a start over the field and they win if the can hold that lead.



More endurance versions of sports and delete duplicate sprint versions of sports. Reportedly MTB is been targeted for removal, it requires technical skill and requires faster, higher and further skills however apparently track cycling wants to run more of the same events.

Multi day sailing event.

A long distance paddling or rowing event.

Remove any sport that gives an advantage to those with technically superior equipment.

However in the end keep the field and track-the running, jumping and throwing - and I will not care about the rest.

Cable TV once every four years is my answer to commercial TV, apparently the local commercial broadcaster around here went to the baseball at the moment Kiprotich executed his plan in the Men's Marathon, well done, come again in four years time.

The director of the men's and women's marathon must have been the same person who did Sydney unable to tell a narrative just endless jumping from one group to another. It is simple thing, they run from A to B for two plus hours the first person across the line wins it is not a music video clip

I just saw a recording of the horse-dancing, and it seems a shame other performing animals are excluded. Pigeon racing would be hard to televise, but lion taming seems to fit the TV-friendly bill nicely.

Rabbit Hopping would be another candidate ... and if it could somehow be combined with lion taming and pigeon racing, perhaps we have the triathlon of performing animals? One penguin short of a circus, but that would be in the Olympic spirit, right?

Eriol was right! Greco-Roman wrestling is out.

Our media report that Modern Pentathlon and Taekwondo were on that shortlist too based on Olympic Programme Commission's report. They have mentioned TV, tickets sold and popularity around the world as main criteria.

Modern Pantathlon has it all though!

I've been a little slow on catching up on some sporting news, but I finally realized they are actually dropping wrestling from the Olympics. To me, this is insane, especially on a conceptual level. After all, the Olympic motto was Citius, Altius, Fortius. No more--we seem to be moving apace towards Kofol's world...

Yea, I'm pretty shocked, too. I did all of that research last summer looking into the qualifications for Olympic consideration, and I just don't understand how a sport like wrestling gets the boot and modern pentathlon gets kept in.

Wrestling is popular all over the world, it doesn't have a socio-economic limitation to participation, it's been in the modern games since the beginning, it was in the ancient games, and really, it's probably one of the first sports ever invented, on a primal level. It's certainly more Olympic than any of the other combat sports (boxing, taekwando, judo).

And modern pentathlon basically has pretty much the same international footprint as orienteering, and we all know how close we are to the Olympics...

In my reading - Wrestling isn't so popular in hispanic and asian countries or with women. In the last games it had unsold tickets and empty seats. And while the weakness of the position was evident to many, the governing organization didn't appear to work the political front. The sport that came out on top - Modern Pentathlon - did play the game and changed its game to make things more attractive.

Any Olympic ties to the classic games are perhaps nostalgic - it's a major industry with an objective of maximizing participation and profits. (IMHO;-)

it's a major industry with an objective of maximizing participation and profits.

I agree. It certainly has veered far from the amateur ethos of its early days. (Admittedly, it is hard to find much that does look like an amateur sport from back then, save, perhaps orienteering.)

Anyway, let's just get rid of the tripartite vulgate tripe, and embrace the future. I'm buying my tickets to the "2020 Olympics, brought to you by Red Bull." See you there.

...I just don't understand how a sport like wrestling gets the boot and modern pentathlon gets kept in.
Pentathlon has "Juan Antonio Samaranch Junior, vice-president of the sport's governing body and a member of the IOC executive board". Pentathlon has just 2 events and number of athletes able to participate in Pentathlon is very low ~70 (hard to bring new sport in when you have overall limitation of number of athletes) compare to 18 events and 5x more athletes in Wrestling. So, more expensive sport with better political representation has won. It is not something new and unfamiliar.

I like jman motto, maybe..."2020 WOC, brought to you by Red Bull" would be quite a great achievement. And yet still we do not know how to become a major sport, although we will always be a small sport.

Other reasons that wrestling got excluded:

1. Corruption inside the sport with frequent allegations of "fixed" matches.
2. Failure to create rules that make the sport interesting and fair.

yet still we do not know how to become a major sport

We do. The IOF just doesn't have an adequate entertainment budget for IOC members from emirates and stans.

You would think that the emirates and stans would have done something about the wrestling if they cared, because their people are pretty good at it (relatively speaking.)

Fun fact of the day:

29 nations won medals at the 2012 Olympics in wrestling.

26 nations participated at the 2012 Olympics in modern pentathlon.

In other news related to this thread...

The Teva Mountain Games are now the GoPro Mountain Games

I think orienteering should try to get in there for 2014.

Vail would be an awesome venue for sprints.

I would think there are 26 reasons why wrestling got the boot from the Olympics.
The IOC was committed to making cuts from the core sports so they went down the list alphabetically. As they went through the list each sport kept being saved. Then there was one sport left. "Hey we've got to do something," said the wine swilling mob. The only sport left took the brunt of their need to be seen to do something. if wrestling had been called 'body groping' or something like that it would still be on tghe program and volleyball would be gone.
Just a thought.

Replace the run section of modern pentathlon with a sprint orienteering event, where at each control you have to shoot a bikini-clad wrestler before proceeding to the next one. Everyone wins.

Wouldn't it be appropriate for wrestling to push to be switched to winter Olympics instead of excluded completely? It's an indoor sport that can be done any time of year, and would take pressure off the "overcrowded" summer games.

Basketball is another sport that always seemed to me like it would fit more appropriately in the winter games than on the summer...

My understanding is that a requirement for a winter Olympic sport is that it has to be played on snow or ice.

"Only those sports which are practised on snow or ice are considered as winter
sports."

From the Olympic Charter, Section 6.2.

Re: "...WOC, brought to you by Red Bull..."

We´ve already been there. The 1976 WOC was named "The William Younger World Championships in Orienteering" after the main sponsor, a Scottish (?) brewery...

The Olympics. A proud symbol of international cooperation. Showing how the entire world can come together and agree to sacrifice our idealism, history and sacred symbols in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

The Event may be named as “[Company Name] World Orienteering Championships”.

This marketing approach is still in use by IOF but it is a little bit intrusive nowadays. More subtle approach is http://www.schladming2013.at/en/home/

And modern pentathlon basically has pretty much the same international footprint as orienteering
I read your analysis and if we want to be fair to Pentathlon we need to produce our own report based on IOC rules to see where we are. If IOC share these information in transparent way, why IOF is not able to do the same after each WOC.

IOC report about 26 core sports from 2009.

From my observation we are not even close to Pentathlon. On sponsors field we are weak and so on.....It would be great to know what are our true strengths in comparison with sports which were on this IOC shortlist (Taekwondo, Field Hockey, ...) or on the other shortlist of contestants for Olympic spot?

Also these data are part of a standardized format and we should be able to capture, process and present it.
- Average percentage of national federations which organised national championships
- Number of tickets available and sold during WOC
- Number of media accreditation requests at the last two world championships
- Average number of hours of television coverage per day of competition during WOC
- Number of territories where the last two world championships were broadcast
- Number of territories that paid for TV rights for the last two world championships
- Benefits received by the IOF from its five major sponsors
- Television production cost

Hmmm. The IOC thinks that summer games have too many sports and wants to reduce. But they want the winter games to grow. Maybe the solution is to rethink their narrow definition of which games are eligible to be included in the winter games. Practically any indoor arena type sport could then be shifted.

That way Australia could compete at more events and we might win a few instead of leaving it up to snow and ice rich countries like Canada, Germany and the USA to collect all the glory.

Perhaps iron ore and wheat stockpile skiing should be in the olympics? If different swimming strokes are in, why not different ski surfaces. I was going to suggest sheep shagging, but Australia could only win silver at that.

Google trends puts Wrestling & Orienteering both on a distinct downtrend over the past decade - but with Wrestling 50x more popular than Orienteering...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=orienteerin...

Orienteering vs. Pentathlon actually has Orienteering in the lead over the past decade - but with Pentathlon holding steady, and Orienteering in persistent decline, that's much tighter...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=orienteerin...

And among off road running alternatives, while Orienteering still wins the past decade, it got passed by Trail Running in 2009, by Mud Run in 2010, and by Zombie Run in 2012...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=orienteerin...

Perhaps the decline in that last graph indicates a switch to WorldofO?
@Simmo.. I don't know about the sheep shagging, but I think NZ is certainly winning the search count for orienteering. Do they sit up at night repeatedly searching for orienteering on Google?

Mud and zombie runs have only become popular recently though so they can hardly be compared to a well established sport. Give them a few years.

Wyatt the wrestling figures are distorted by the US, where almost noone has heard of Greco-Roman, but pro-wrestling is mass entertainment, and more comedy than sport (plus the results are all fixed). Can you produce the same data but for Greco-Roman wrestling only?

Pentathlon figures spiked in July/August for the olympics. I'd suggest Orienteering would be much further ahead in a non-olympic year.

Through the years, Olympic wrestling has provided a number of stirring moments, perhaps none that surpassed the shocking Greco-Roman victory by Rulon Gardner of the United States over the heavily favored Aleksandr Karelin of Russia — who had not lost in 13 years — at the 2000 Sydney Games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9yiCuX1hV8

I've watched Taekwando once and it was similar fight with video replay needed to decide the winner/point. Combat sports have so many variations and techniques and all want to be at the Olympics (Boxing, Judo, Taekwando, Wrestling) and we have new in the row (Karate, Wushu, where is sumo?). They've dug their own grave.

I would love to see sport climbing at Olympics but I suppose it is time for another sport with racket.

In some places basketball is played on ice. Sort of. I remember an issue at the Boston Garden years ago, late in the season, when the air conditioning was having trouble keeping up and the ice was melting such that water was leaking up through the floorboards (which would be removed when it was time for a hockey game).

Google trends can be used to compare words not sports. Just look at the regional map and try to guess which countries have their own spelling or word for "oryantiring", "bryting", "viisiottelu" and so on...

Taking Wyatt's analysis further, and limiting it to the English-speaking world, this is undoubtedly what all the cool kids are doing. (If there is any consolation, all flip-the-fishes without exception would be in the noise of this plot; for all practical purposes, everyone's gone muddering.)

Don't you have this in the US?

They must do given the way the organisers brought the crap spelling across to Australia.

Yes we do! we also have zombies, pirates, and vampires.

Masturbation should be an olympic sport. You could have the sprint finish, the long jump, the high jump and a mixed relay, which us orienteers are clearly a fan of.

Been training a lot for it CillinC eh?

Easy way to test for drug use, just have an 'aim for the petri dish' event.