Discussion: a question for the womenfolk

I'm pretty new to orienteering and never did any real camping or anything like that as a kid. There's been a couple of times I've been at an event and had a full bladder and there were no toilets nearby - others told me to just go behind a tree. As a female I'm not sure how to do this without either completely removing pants and exposing myself, or risking making a mess of myself. I'm wondering what is the correct technique to maintain modesty and stay clean? I'm too embarrassed to ask anyone face to face.

a) go in the opposite direction to the bulk of the orienteers and find a tree/pile of logs/bush, preferably wider than yourself.
b) squat down behind the tree, initially still with pants on, and peer around. If you can't see any other orienteers then chances are they can't see you. (If anyone does come your way they will be on the same mission, and will avoid you.)
c) lower pants to pee, use paper, and either bury paper if it's not a water catchment, or carry out in ziplock bag to put in general rubbish later.
d) use alcohol hand gel afterwards if you wish.

I'd guess that most of us have either been seen by, or have seen, someone going behind a bush, during our orienteering career. I remember one local event where it was too windy for the toilet tent to stay up and so anyone who asked for the toilet was given a shovel, with the sign TOILET attached!

Thanks jennycas. To be honest "most of us have either been seen by, or have seen, someone going behind a bush" wasn't really what I wanted to hear. Would rather not be accidently exposing myself - especially when its possibly to men or children. I have heard of female urination devices which you can use still fully clothed but they look complicated and like a bit of a hassle to always have in your pocket or bag.

I'm not a big one for getting changed in public, so I see your point. How about the 'sarong or beach towel around the middle' approach? That should be manageable :)

Or, ask a female friend/acquaintance to come with you and keep guard while looking the other way. They say women always go to the toilet in pairs...

If your back is to a shrub or thicket or something, and you squat really low, you're pretty well covered. You'll be able to see if anyone's coming and can shout a warning if you'd like, but in a low squat you aren't likely to expose yourself even if someone comes by. Honestly, though, usually it's the person running into the pee-er that is more embarrassed than the pee-er herself. :-)

I have used one of the "female urination devices" out there. I bought it for peeing while flying (my old job involved navigating a plane that had a urinal, often no curtain and no real toilet) and it was nice for that on the rare occasion I needed to use it. I tried it while hiking and it indeed was a bit of a hassle. I would much rather squat behind a shrub.

I think this is something that needs addressing here in the US. I was astonished when I moved here and realised there would not always be bathrooms available. I've been doing this since I was a kid and it's not really a modesty thing (though I can understand that), but in the UK we generally can't run meets without bathrooms. Part of the contract for using the place would be the hire of at least one portapotty. This would make everything more comfortable for many people.

Perhaps at the average WCOC meet where there's 40 competitors the expense is too great, but I've been to NEOC meets with a hundred or so (including kids, which makes no bathrooms extra difficult at home) people that have had no facilities. This is poor.

(And yes, perfectly aware that having to get them makes organising more hassle).

There's a difference between being seen while peeing and being exposed. If somebody sees your head and you're squatting, they'll turn and look the other way.

the expense is too great

That's just part of how the orienteering culture is too cheapie to care about even the basics. How many event directors would order a portapottie if the park district didn't require it? My guess is less than 10%.

I am the 10%!

Just wait until the club starts nudging you for overspending...

Just wait till the Aussies wake up and see this thread...

For the cheapo clubs, dig a trench and build a screen.

Pink Socks - you rock.

Just wait until the club starts nudging you for overspending...

Nudge back along the lines of "is my continuing to direct events important to you or not?"

This is certainly an issue at the start area because the men are running off into the woods in all directions so the woman has trouble finding a safe direction to head (for privacy and to avoid embarrassing the men). Perhaps saving a little time to go farther afield would help.
A side note, but so important: KNOW the poisonous plants such as poison ivy and oak and nettles and be VERY careful to stay out of them. I know both men and women who have used leaves of poison ivy or oak as toilet tissue...
Here are a couple more suggestions for at-the-start or during the race. 1. Wear a fashionable little skirt over your pants, which provides an in situ privacy tent. 2. Wear a long teeshirt that easily stretches over the rear curve. 3. With lined running shorts or underwear, it's typically possible (without having to pull them down) to pull aside the elastic narrowest part of the shorts enough to do your business. And don't forget the daily tick check. Best of luck and comfort to you!

I am trying to remember a formal orienteering event I attended where there have not been restrooms available, but cannot. So I am not sure how large an issue this is. Most parks have there own facilities. But if the forest used does not have convenient restrooms, rented portapotties are a must, whatever the cost. The alternatives are disgusting and environmentally damaging.

Of course getting these portapotties to remote starts are another issue. All that nervous energy can get the best of us, even if we have gone down below at registration/parking.

@ ndobbs - at least there is a screen, which is surely what elef would prefer.

Seriously, in the Western (and best) half of Oz we hire a portaloo for most events, at all the others we use two change shelters each with a portable toilet over a 1m deep hole. I don't go to many small events in the Eastern half, but all the big events use portaloos, and there is occasionally a screen and trench just for males wanting a pee. The benefit of this is smaller queues for the portaloos.

The main problem with portaloos is not the expense, but finding a volunteer to collect it, tow it to the event, and then return it, especially if the hire company doesn't open on Sunday (the day of most events). At bigger events using multiple units we can afford to have them delivered on a truck.

Cost is relevant too - averages out to about $2/competitor for an event with 80 people, which takes away any profit margin at our smaller events. Some of our clubs use the portable camping toilets which someone (presumably with a long-drop on their own bush block) has the joy of taking away and emptying.

GAOC always rents a port-o-potty unless there are facilities nearby. Just part of the cost of doing business. We don't have a rule that any particular meet has to make a profit, just that we need to at least break even over the year.

However, I think the question is more about being caught short out in the terrain. My sister is a big fan of these and uses them while hill-walking, etc.

We *need* people to piss in the scrub out here - otherwise wee'd never be able to map intermittent watercourses!

@CHARLIE-B ... and the products are presented in pink control circles...

To get yourself mentally past this hurdle, start by getting comfortable with the common practice of changing your clothes while standing next to your car in the parking lot.

Right to jj's above - go to a European O meet to see how things are done!

I think keeping from accidentally exposing yourself is totally different than being comfortable with changing/peeing in public. I work with junior athletes, and my changing habits/peeing habits are way different when I'm around them than when I'm around orienteering peers.

I find that usually announcing my intents means that people respect my privacy, but I also try to find some sort of greenery to hide behind.

Private Eye (I think) ran a poetry competition in the early 1980's to find the best clerihew about sport.

One of the winners was:

Orienteering,
peering,
at maps
alfresco craps

Thanks to Stan Hale for lodging this gem in my mind where it has been stuck, unlike nearly all other pomes.

In a lot of Australian areas providing portable toilets is a condition of getting the permit to use the land. Still a lot of bushes being used though, particularly at remote starts...

One of the more bizarre pre-race conversations I've been in was on such an occasion, alongside a fellow competitor who in real life is a Canberra cop; the subject of the conversation was the legal requirements to sustain a charge of "urinating in a public place" in the Australian Capital Territory.

German 5 Days in 1991. Day One. Really had to go. Wide open forest and people everywhere. Couldn't find a suitable "private" spot. Found a very deep long ditch....so got into position and then in mid-stream...three elite men come barreling down the ditch. Apparently there was a checkpoint at the end, around a corner out of sight. They all giggled as they passed me! Swallow pride and move on. On a side note...one of the elite men who witnessed my peeing saw me every day until the end of the races. He would smile and say, "Hello Canada! How are you?!" every time! :)

Backwoods, you could have responded: "Piss off, elitist!" :).

Wow, I'm surprised to see that this thread has taken off. Some of the suggestions/instructions are very helpful. In particular Oslug I found your third suggestion very helpful!

@undy - thanks for the poem, a keeper.

I think you'd be hard pushed to find an orienteer, of either gender, who hasn't enjoyed many an alfresco pee. I think the wandering off with an attempt to squat behind something is enough for other orienteers to avert their gaze, same with getting changed pre and post race. Just remember that noone wants to watch you pee so people will be respectful. It would be an awful shame if the sport became popular with perverts.

For goodness, sake, just pee behind a tree. Haven't you read the excellent books "How to Shit in the Woods" by Kathleen Meyer (American) or "Shitting Pretty" by British GP Dr Jane Wilson Howarth (and I contributed a couple of anecdotes.
On expeditions in the arctic, with youngsters, mainly British, in Greenland, Svalbard and Canada, I've observed that at the start, people find boulders or trees behind which to pee, nut as the expedition progresses, they become less fussy, resulting in peeing behind pebbles and shrubs!
Can't condone crapping without burying / removing waste, but peeing is another matter, as long as you don't leave paper behind, and select soil, rather than hard surface.

Find a pretty wide tree. Squat, lean your back against it. You can now take your pants down just enough to go. If you are squatting enough and keep pants above your knees, they will still hide the front from view, and the tree takes care of most of the backside. (And all butts pretty much look the same anyhow.) You just have to be careful to miss your clothes.

This isn't always available, but my fave spots are where there is forest next to an open area. Because of the light/dark contrast, once you duck into the woods, you will be invisible even if there isn't a shrub or felled tree (and there usually are in S. Ontario.) It may be disconcerting to see people go by in the sunny open area, but they definitely can't see you! Like a creepy one-way mirror, ha.
I admit I've never had to go in terrain that isn't forested, though.

Kate actually wrote about this subject a while back.

http://team-virtus.com/2012/08/13/you-go-girl/

On expeditions in the arctic, with youngsters, mainly British, in Greenland, Svalbard and Canada, I've observed that at the start, people find boulders or trees behind which to pee, nut as the expedition progresses, they become less fussy, resulting in peeing behind pebbles and shrubs!

There are too many commas in this sentence. Please remove at least seven of them.

How does one get rid of commas when there aren't trees or bushes around?

Actually, am amazed that no one has invented some kind of go-girl-like underwear.... the go-girl thing of thinner material, and built into the underarmour

I've often wondered the same about military uniforms, especially given that some ladies I've known in combat convoys have had to pee in a bottle while wearing the standard front-fly pants (it's apparently possible). Chafing/discomfort from a relocated fly may be the issue.

I especially appreciated orienteering when I was pregnant because it wasn't a huge issue to be out on a course and have to pee every 15 minutes...

Sounds like it was more a case of frequent issue rather than one huge issue.

Luckily we have cups located on our courses.

Ah, so tRicky's woken up to this thread...

Surprisingly, no one has made mention of the wide variety of terrain which it is usually necessary to water during the course of a rogaine (unless you're really dehydrated).

Or of the varying degrees of humiliation involved in having to provide a urine sample to a watching drug-tester.

I like: "turn around, I have to pee."

cmpblly - From personal experience, being female, peeing in normal army uniform (British Army, early 1990s) wasn't too difficult, but peeing in full NBC kit (Nuclear Biological Chemical) even in a normal toilet, was more of a challenge - 2 pairs trousers, over underpants, overtrousers with straps over shoulder, but under overtop, all wearing gqas mask and hood, which resticted view of what you were doing.

And think of astronauts and multi-day big wall climbers and being marooned in a tent in a Himalayan storm!

Sorry but I have to......Just do it.
We all do and we all need to!

Re: peeing in uniform - never had to wear NBC gear long enough to worry about it, but I can imagine that it's much worse than a flight suit, which needs to be totally unzipped and taken half off in order to pee. Annoying, but doable. Everyone has a different technique, I think, but I would always stuff the arms in the pants after unzipping so as not to drag a sleeve through anything related to toilets.

@ elef's initial query, practice at a time and place you know you are completely alone. Find a technique you feel comfortable with. Then, on race day, you only have the public part to worry about...and that's mostly in one's mind. There are some good pointers here that boil down to this - make sure your posterior is as far away from your feet/clothes as possible (in vertical alignment). As mentioned, squating low helps. So does holding onto a small tree or branch in front of you and leaning back.
So what qualifies me as a man to say this? Bathroom needs beyond peeing and more importantly, being married for over 20 years. :)

hahahahha.... ! i am just thinking of how you go out "hunting" for a good spot, ... its kinda like trying to find a control... a good combination of certain features,... and voila!

One bad feature a friend of mine found during an archeological trip in Scotland: she squatted over a downed tree, but right over a wasp nest. They were not amused. And she was not very happy for quite a while.

copepod, I've done the same and totally concur. I even remember a sign from inside the latrine where we were training with CS gas during cadet basic - it said "sit down, relax, take your time." I recall laughing (inside) as some cadet sergeant was outside hollering at me to get a move on, which was clearly just not possible in full chemical and field gear. But remind me not to go orienteering in full MOPP, or a flight suit for that matter.

I guess that just underlines the importance of carefully selecting your outfit if you're concerned about ease or modesty - some are better than others!

On rogaines, when I was competitive, my partner and I used to syncronise "whistle stops" to minimise stoppage time. Either that or we would make the stop as quick as possible so that the other could keep moving and we would still be in voice contact. Do the business and then run to catch up.

Amateur, Mr Rogaine. You only need to stop for a second to get the flow started, then you just keep walking (and aim carefully).

Classic Fletch, I was going to pretty much say the same thing! (digressing to men-folk here).

Sounds like a lot of dribble to me.

what a great thread - I am going to take Len's advice and go practice my peeing technique now.

Any sugestions about how to do a number 2?

for number 2, wear a skirt.

'turn around, I have to poop.'

Rob, that is something your parents probably should have taught you. I commend you for being able to 'hold it in' all this time.

Robplow - When you're in a remote location (i.e., don't have a shovel handy), please go farther off course and away from a creek. Do your best to dig a hole with a stout stick or sharp rock or find an existing hole or lift a sizable rock, then re-cover your business afterward. My spouse had the misfortune to step in someone's business on an O course this past summer. A clean stick, handful of ferns, rock, or clump of moss should be helpful for cleanup. Again, watch that poison ivy. And please find the soap before the snack table.

the same question has to be asked for men, i am struggling with confidence when i go to the forest to pee. Im not sure if I should make a big deal of whipping my schlong out or should i just do it subtly like a snake escaping from a cage.

Ladies, your technique is all wrong. Yours too, ColmM.

This is how it's done.

Unbelievable. 2 weeks, a bunch of replies and no mention of poison ivy/oak.

We don't have it in Australia.

And in any case, Oslug mentioned it two weeks ago. :)

Why would you pee on or wipe yourself with poison ivy?

Because it's there! :)

Christina: I turned around. Are you done yet?