Class N Last First Minute Time
M20 15 Hubsch William 28 09:58:00
M20 24 Ohrwaschel Nathan 46 10:16:00
M20 52 Underwood Carl 102 11:12:00
M20 64 Barker Zachary 126 11:36:00
M20 130 Stout Matthew 258 13:48:00
M20 150 Childs Ethan 298 14:28:00
F20 223 Spencer Danielle 44 10:14:00
F20 231 Ziolkoski Barbara 60 10:30:00
F20 252 Breton Anna 102 11:12:00
F20 294 Wilkinson Anne 186 12:36:00
F20 315 Parson Margaret 228 13:18:00
F20 325 Bryant Isabel 248 13:38:00
Good luck everyone. Have great races.
By the way, for those in the east coast of the US, Czech Republic is 6 hours ahead. 10 am CZ time is 4 am EDT.
Go Team USA! Run fast, run clean, run confident! Looking forward to following the GPS tracking from home!
Go fast, don't get lost and have fun doing it!
Have a great week, Team USA!
Wishing all a great week! Go O!
So everyone back in the USA should be able to watch Ethan run in real time; 2:28 pm start is 8:28 am eastern, 5:28 am pacific. And the other men too, if you get up earlier...
Love the bike vending machine. Get me a blue one!
Is it one final for long?
how are they pushing ~150 people through a single course?
Looks like a 4-5 hour start window
I am tweeting now #jwoc @ orienteeringusa
Unable to open gps tracking page...
it took a long time to load
Pretty cool. Looks like a reasonable result for Will. Some interesting route choices.
Looked like Will was running solidly through the second half of the course and was doing his own orienteering and choosing his own routes. Nice work!
He's a very fast runner. I didn't see him make any mistakes. Right now he's about 38% behind winner which is great. I don't think the result they have listed as first is correct.
Interesting that the first starting Belgian is disqualified, and the second one has a strange run, currently shown oddly in first place, but without all radio controls...
Is the JWOC tracking site down? I can't get the Live Tracking to even start loading. It's been 20 minutes of nada.
It's working for me, although I had to switch browsers and update my Java.
Nice result for Anna B at her first JWOC!
Looks like Carl finished very strong after some mistakes early. Really nice job by him!
Thanks! I took your advice and went to Internet Explorer and it just loaded in a few seconds. On to JWOC Live!
it seems one can replay a run only during a limited period of time an then a name disappears...
Overslept. Pretty good result for Will. Now trying to find someone else. Anyone else out on the course right now?
13:48 Matt Stout
14:28 Ethan Childs
Cool. I see Matt moving to the start. I think Will told me yesterday that there's about a 5 minute delay in the GPS. Is that right?
Doesn't seem like it. Looks pretty live to me, based on the times, but I guess I could be wrong. And yeah, I think Will should be proud of his run - solid all the way through.
This is so cool! Watching Matt live!
Solid start for Izzy and Meg!
Ethan going to the start. Go Ethan!
Has anyone found the "speaker sound" that World of O mentions?
Nope; still looking. Also, I keep losing my connection to the splits. But at least I see the GPS.
Ethan and Matt are about to cross paths! Go Matt! Go Ethan!
Ethan and Matt say hi in the woods :)
Lost my connection. This is killin me
Matt is on his way to 19 and Ethan's GPS went grey but was on his way to 14
Can anyone see Ethan's GPS since #14?
I can't see the GPS, but he went through the spectator control, which I believe is 16.
It's incredible that the runner currently in 1st finished ahead of 2nd by only 1.8 seconds, and the top five are all within 23 seconds of each other. Just a little hesitation, or going the wrong way around a bush can make a difference.
Sorry, I was looking at the M20 radio control!
Now I don't know what I was looking at. The radio control is messed up. Has about 300 runners on it. And times are different than they were a little while ago.
I think the runners go through that radio twice, so they each show up twice in the list.
Meg and Izzy both did great!
Ethan about 32% back. Excellent!
from the opening ceremony.
And some analysis for the US team comparing to 2011 and 2012 in terms of percent BEHIND the average of the top three---Without a doubt there is definite improvement on the Long.
2011 2012 2013
40.54% 43.84% 32.17%
56.17% 51.58% 43.34%
56.43% 86.75% 47.24%
59.41% 97.55% 57.61%
71.64% 123.83% 75.48%
90.47% DSQ 82.64
2011 2012 2013
44.89% 71.55% 42.75%
67.65% 138.35% 43.57%
xxxxxx yyyyyyy 53.47%
xxxxxx yyyyyyy 98.11%
xxxxxx yyyyyy 117.57%
xxxxxx yyyyyyy 119.80%
Hmmm, can't seem to make the table make sense. It looks good in my "edit version" but than it just all runs together without the spaces in the viewable version. Oh well.
I understand it. Example: Matt was 82.64% behind the average of the top 3. Last year, the 6th US male DQ'd. In 2011, the 6th US male came in 90.47% behind the average of the top 3. Right?
Another interesting number to think of is the proximity of, for example, the top 10 to the event site/country. Compared to other sports, orienteering has another variable which has to do with more than navigation. In Northern America it is most likely State or National Park or Forest or the like, with few distractions like farm dogs, farm animals or the like. I think familiarity with such things might also figure into some of the time So I think the time length of the US team over the years to familiarize themselves prior to JWOC with the overall terrain, but more so with the "feel" might also figure into above results.
From personal experience of orienteering in the US then orienteering extensively in Germany, Austria, and other surrounding countries there is definitely a benefit of training in the terrain. Understanding the full impacts of terrain takes time.
Carl's analysis shows what is happening to our Junior Program. We aren't on the podium but we are moving up!
I know. The great Pre-JWOC training is definitely a part of the "feel of the land" impact on the overall results and the progress.
And the lack of team members to train with is a big minus for the juniors. I think Erin and co. are doing a great job in getting the juniors to motivate each other. Now we just have to do the same in a club level so that you will have training buddies within a reasonable distance where you live. We might need to kidnap some cross country runners from Suffern High!
@smittyo: Exactly which browser and version, plus java version, did you use?
@ MJ Stout
Yes, you are correct
@liisab: totally agree, right on.
I wasn't able to get network connectivity from the meet today, but have a couple photos I'm tweeting now.
Just saw a few of Dave's photos; he got nice ones of each JWOC team member today. He needs to do more editting and then will post.
So. I thought today was really really good.
One theme was clean runs. That has been a major focus for training, both in technique and in psychology, and the team had pretty clean runs today. That is a success.
Izzy & Meg: solid performances; looked great coming in. No major issues. They, like many, said that they made some suboptimal route choices.
Anna B: wow. Great run.
Anne W: solid, no major errors.
Barbara & Danielle: They finished the course, were steady, had pretty clean runs. For both of them it was a huge step up; Danielle was much faster than the Long in NY, and Barbara wasn't able to finish the Long in NY. So this was a big improvement for both of them.
Carl: Seemed disappointed about his run but I agree with you all that he recovered well
Will: I was super happy with Will's run; pretty clean. I got a photo of him at the spectator control, but then stopped taking pictures to concentrate on tracking progress and because I couldn't broadcast them out.
Ethan: wasn't sure how he'd done when he finished; seemed pretty comfortable about his navigation; the hills were tough.
Zac: is usually, as today, happy with his performance.
Matt: very tired; his favorite part was finishing, but he did well for a tough course and his first JWOC race.
Nate: lost his map (!) and found it again.
Interesting feature of today's race: each finisher had to spend about 5 minutes drawing in their route immediately after finishing and before being released to coaches.
Here is what I was using at the finish to track the athletes
I'm jealous of you all getting to watch the GPS. We didn't see any GPS at the arena.
We were super close to the goal for the girls of top 100.
OK, I just watched Will's replay and I see that it wasn't entirely clean. But he did pretty well.
The TracTrac was great. Worked well (after the long loading routine). Very few lost signals. Not only do you get routes but speed/hesitations add to the great info. Although I didn't notice Nate looking for his map.
I flexed my time this morning and watched all but Ethan and Matt. I would be happy to pay a premium JWOC entrance fee for this kind of upgrade. A few well placed video cameras would be icing on the cake.
Addison: one major error, I think.
John Stabler: trouble at the start (the start procedure was not clear to anyone and caused some issues for all), and at one other control where everyone there gave up so he figured it wasn't there.
Jake: won one leg :-) (or at least he had at the time he downloaded).
Duncan: had a lot of trouble on control #1.
Elina: ROCKS! finished 12 of 30
Michael: injured; still made it around the course.
Dan: psyched to be running his first European race
Connor: haven't talked to him; his foot has been injured since an early training.
Melanie: has been injured; finished the course.
Tim & Ben Parson: finished middle of their packs
Stan Moore (84 yo): FINISHED!
@GuyO Firefox v21.0 Java 7 for Mac OS X (10.8.4)
One thing to keep in mind (referring to my dad's percentage analysis) is that while he may be getting closer to the leaders, our placing hasn't increased dramatically. This means other countries are getting better as well.
Maybe it's just tougher competition this year. I think one of the goals for the guys this year was a top 50 finish in the long. This year, that equates to less than 15% behind he leaders. Last year, 50th was about 25% behind.
I doubt the competition is significantly different in the aggregate, but that's possible.
The Long this year was a less technical map than the Long last year. Less opportunity to make mistakes, and easier to correct for them, resulting in compressed times. Those who would make mistakes would still make them, but they would be fewer and recovery from mistakes would be faster. That would be generally true across the board.
To determine whether the improvement in US % back was real improvement, you would have to see how other nation's % back improved, and whether the US % back improved more than other nation's.
That's what I see, anyway.
I was able to load the post-race TracTrac, but could only do the mass start reply, rather than individuals (is that possible?). "Mass" pretty much sums up what it looked like... :-)
I wish Anna and Elina could have been there for all the training! But hey there is always Next Year...
While these results do look like an improvement, % of winner time isn't necessarily the best method of measurement. This is an area that wasn't particularly hard, and while it had a lot of hills, it had fast terrain and so wasn't the toughest area, meaning lots of people were able to run quite cleanly and quickly.
This means the % of winning time can be a bit skewed and easy on the eye this year.
It was similar at JWOC 2011 in Poland. Whereas 2012 in Slovakia was tougher, or much more so 2009 in Italy was very tough.
For all of the years that I kept JWOC stats I measured % behind the winner and % back in the field. The actual placing is highly variable based on how many competitors there are and this changes a lot depending on the host country.
This even looked like much easier navigation than even poland!! Poland had a lot more contour detail I felt. And while watching the the GPS tracking you could see once people got on the right route choice it was fast fast running today and quite a few packs. Now obviously we don't have the GPS for poland and that could have happened there as well. But I agree that % of winners time isn't the best method of measurement as it is such different terrain. It might not be bad if say an individual did it against a consistent competitor, for example emily and I raced all the same JWOCs together. But not overall i think.
I calc'd up some percentage-rank stats. Thay are based on place, rather than time, with the winner near 99%, and non-finishers at 0%; ie, higher is better
Year: (#starters, #USA starters) range of percentile ranks
2013: (169, 6) 3.55 - 28.99%
2012: (174, 6) 0.0, 18.97 - 44.25
2011: (153, 6) 3.92 - 28.10
2010: (156, 6) 16.03 - 41.67
2009: (168, 6) 0.0, 14.88 - 36.90
2013: (147, 6) 2.22 - 29.25%
2012: (139, 2) 13.67, 24.46
2011: (131, 2) 15.27, 29.01
2010: (122, 3) 16.39 - 25.41
2009: (122, 5) 9.84 - 53.28
Guy, click on "Mass Start" in the lower left to deselect it. You can also speed up the replay.
carlch's stats are percent behind leaders, ie, behind average of top 3.
Others' use of "winner" might be the same as "leaders", but with imprecise terminology.
I did see the speed adjustment; set the mass start replay at 100... :-)
to see photos of US team members from the Long event.
and some shots of the US Junior team from the opening ceremony and team meeting here
Final results are posted. For M20, everyone but Ethan moved up one spot because a third Belgian who finished 130th was DQd. Three Belgians DQd in total. Must have done something terrible, like listened to IPods in quarantine.
Dave, Awesome photos. Thanks!
@MJ: 10 (default) was too slow; 100 was okay.
Really great photos! Of course, it helps that we have such a photogenic team :)
Guy, and others watching TracTrac. You can select which competitors you want to watch, both during the live tracking and afterward, if you want to use the Mass Start feature. It's a little tricky, but to select competitors, go to right side of the screen and choose Selection. It produces an alphabetical list on the right. Scroll down to the name you want and click on it. Then (important), hit the + next to the name to add it to the field of competitors you are creating. If you hit the divide symbol, you lose all of your selections. Once you've selected the competitors, go to the left side of the screen and select Mass start. You can control the speed and pause and restart at will.
Today I watched the entire field during the race, then afterward, compared the U.S. and Canadians with the top 3 Men. I find it very fun to pause at the beginning of the leg, figure out what I'd do or what the choices are, then watch the competitors to see what they did. WOC has had this for a few years now, and it's almost as good as being there. In fact, those of us with online service got to see more of the race than Barb at the event! All they need now is the cameras and video in the woods and the speaker streaming from the arena like at WOC and you can sit at home in your pjs and feel like you're at the event.
Technology has been very kind to the sport of orienteering. Thanks in large part to the awesome technogeeks that are drawn to the sport. It's the BEST!
Terrific photos, Dave. Thanks so much.
I don't claim to know anything about math, but attached are some simple calculations of improvements in "percentage back" from the JWOC Long 2012 to the JWOC Long 2013. (I hope this works!) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B567DJF6XE5kbzVSSX...
Statistically, year-over-year, improvement occurred throughout the rankings. Improvement was logarithmic, not linear. Statistically, those who finished 100 or below had significantly greater improvement than those who finished higher than 100.
These numbers suggest that, statistically, those who did not finish in the top 3 saw improvement (at all levels), with the greatest improvement shown by those who finished 100 or below. Statistically, finishers below 100 saw a minimum 20% improvement in "percentage back" between 2012 and 2013.
These numbers don't prove causation (or say anything about any given individual's improvement year-over-year), but a plausible explanation is that the terrain was less technically difficult in 2013 than in 2012. A visual comparison of the two maps seems to support this possible explanation. Times were compressed because there were fewer opportunities for error, and the errors would tend to be smaller. The runners who might be most susceptible to technical errors may (or may not) be those who finish 100 or below.
Comparing "percentage back" for a single runner, or a team of runners, year-over-year is a useful metric, but would be more useful if the difference in courses/terrain could be accounted for. If accounted for (and I'm not sure my simple math accounts for the differences correctly), the results might be surprisingly different.
Of course, the person who is 20% back in non-technical terrain, could be the winner in technical terrain. Or vice versa. Different types of terrain test different skills.
MJC: you wear PJs at home? How can you show your face around here then?
@Barb: Michael injured? He did not mention anything.
In looking at yesterdays team results its easy to look at the numbers or terrain and come up with conclusions and comparisons. From my perspective what I saw yesterday for everyone was many moments if not a whole courses where the juniors were actually using their techniques consciously. On most controls they were planning they were analyzing they were executing. It takes time for those processes to become habits, when that happens you can start running faster. Another thing mentioned above was the mental side of things. All of the juniors did very well with a few moments of brain lapses. They were focused, there were some nerves and they all handled it well. There were no huge navigational mistakes which is something new for most of the juniors.
On the course what you had is a brutally physical course. Which may not seem particularly navigationally challenging, which is not true, its just a different kind of challenge. The swiss men did very well today, because most of their terrain is on hills you have to pick and choose where to climb, you have the know the routes to take around, and the ones you have to just climb. The juniors had some good route choices early. It was apparent though that towards the end of the course they were making route choices based on how they felt. Many of them have just started really physically training. It takes years to build the strength required to run a race like yesterdays well. Even in the case of Ethan who has only really been training physically hard for a year. Its going to take at least another year for that to translate into a leap to the next level. The coolest thing is that navigation-ally the team is doing very well. Its something you can really build on in the future. There is consistency, and from consistency comes leaps in ability. The winner yesterday came through the spectator control looking like he had not just run 7.5k. That's the kind of physical strength you need to run yesterdays course well.
I think one of the coolest things to see was the fact that we did not meet our result based goals, but we met many of our process based goals. Which in my mind are more important in the long run. Our moto for this year is this " strive to run a perfect race, if that does not happen wake up the next day and strive again." The juniors are really living into this and everyone seemed excited and ready to race today, and let go of yesterday. Its great to see that they are becoming comfortable with not meeting a goal initially. This may seem weird, but its being able to put asides the the thoughts about attaining your goals and how you did not meet them, that allows you to come back the next day and do what you need to do to run well. There was very little to no negativity and and lots of positive thinking and that breeds a cohesive team and juniors that believe in what they can do.
We a have a whole week of racing to go. The support is great and all the juniors appreciate it. Thanks for all the kind thoughts.
we did not meet our result based goals, but we met many of our process based goals. Which in my mind are more important in the long run.
Erin, thanks for posting.
Photos from Dave:
JWOC team in Long
Today Dave will travel to Tour location not JWOC, to get photos of our awesome Tour competitors.
Awesome to be following, great report Erin and good luck to all for the middle qual today!!
Yes, thanks Erin for the report! I totally agree that process goals are important, and all of the guys whose GPS tracks I was watching yesterday were doing a lot of things right, at least from what I can see. Good luck in the middle distance qualis today!!!
Looks like another good run from Will today, about 10 minutes down.
Isabel has a great first split.
Yes, excellent first split by Ethan! 3 minutes down.
MJ Stout>> It looks like Matt lost a lot of time in the beginning of the course, but ran steadily after that.
Go Ethan!!! Just 4 minutes down at second radio!!
Really good run by Ethan! Just 4 minutes down! Well done!!
And nice finish by Izzy too.
Congrats to Ethan and Izzy!
The competition is fierce out there. Will and Carl with quite good results didn't make the B final. Many years those types of results would get you into B. My congrats also to Ethan and Izzy!
Wonderful running, Juniors!! Keep up the good work for the rest of the week.
And Erin, you're doing a great job motivating them to do their best -- thank you!
All, be sure to read Ethan' blog post about the Long. Good to have his perspective.
The courses and terrain were quite different today than yesterday. Very short and almost no climb. In fact, it was essentially a downhill course. Considerably more technical. which makes a significant difference. Just eyeballing the results on the M20 side, it appears to me that most of the US M20 runners did at least slightly better today than yesterday.
Matt has an injured knee. Right now they're calling it a bruised bone. Injured it yesterday, reinjured it twice today.
Yes, wonderful report by Erin. His vision and coaching are clearly making a difference. And the whole idea of the junior tour is something that all juniors can look forward to. What a bright future for the US Junior program. It's so exciting!
A couple quick comments:
Matt is recuperating; Marianne is a superstar for finding ice at the event; the medical people don't carry ice. (!) I will be checking in with Matt later, but Marianne and Erin are probably with him now. Matt injured the knee partway through the course, yet finished the course.
Several of the juniors were unhappy with their races. However, I think they did really well. I know some of them struggled, but they finished; there were many good legs, and I'm pretty sure these were some of the best performances of their lives. Even Izzy was very upset and angry about the race. (I think she is sometimes motivated by anger, so this might be good; too bad she couldn't go right out and run the final right then...) Erin and Ethan started talking about the next year of training.
great photos of the juniors
Including one showing Matt's bloody knee, and his face showing exactly how he feels about it. He will not race tomorrow.
Today was bitter sweet. We came very close to meeting our goals and were a few mistakes short of that which was pretty awesome. Ethan and Izzy had goals of making the A final Ethan was certainly close Izzy with a great race could have done it. We also wanted to have 4 of the six from each team make the B final or higher, and again we came pretty close just missing that goal. Generally today was pretty good everyone had maybe one or two mistakes. In reviewing the courses it seemed like most of the mistakes came from having a lack of plan especially going into some of the controls in and around the green areas, taking routes that where not clear, and having no approach plan. So a little rockier navigation ally than yesterday however a pretty solid day on the whole. I think the most exciting thing is that the goals we set where not out of reach which is pretty awesome, considering the age and experience of the team. Again people are making Strides forwards which is our goal for this year which will lead to continued success in the years to come. Ethan had is highest place finish ever as well as Izzy.
Tomorrow Carl, Will, Anna, and Matt will sit out to prepare for the sprint. Anna has not had any sprint training yet so that will help her get ready, Will's goals is to do the best in the sprint and he felt good about skipping the C final to get ready. It being Carl's last year I figured it would be better to prepare for the sprint rather than run the C final and he was good with that. Mat needs to rest his Knee. tomorrow Ethan and Izzy will go after it in the B final, While Zack, Nate, Daniel Barbara, Meg, and Anne will go after it in the C final. Goal to adjust the mistakes from today and have planed routes and good entry plans to the controls. Lets go USA!
Just to give you an idea of how tough the competition is, only Finland had all of it's runners make the A final. Sorry, I didn't check the womens side.
@barb: How's Michael doing with his injiury?
I like the plan, and I also think it shows good initiative. Good luck to all!
That Matt managed to finish his course yesterday and gut it out today shows that he has the heart and the determination to do well in the sport. I hope he can rest up enough to do the sprint--even if he has to take it easy. Sprints in medieval towns are unique, challenging, and memorable.
Good luck to all in the Middle final and the Sprint.
It is interesting that the JWOC organizers used the same area of the same map for both the qualifier and the final. I don't recollect that happening at recent WOC's or JWOC's though I do remember them using the same arena but fresh areas of the map.
edit: ooops, on closer inspection, I was wrong. There was some fresh map for the final
Yeah every boulder looks the same dunnit.
So today was pretty fun. I'm curious what the viewing experience was like from home, and whether anyone watched the TV coverage.
Most of our runners were happy at the finish, which was pretty cool to see. Izzy was 15th in the B final, and Ethan 21st, really nice runs. The JWOC team then went off to the Tour finish to cheer for their teammates. Later they watched the A finals. Connor told me that it was instructive to see the video footage in the woods. He realized that the best runners are not sprinting all the time. He said it would change how he approaches training and racing; he's going to go for a steady pace.
We had a nice dinner out tonight to celebrate the juniors who will be moving on to age 21 next year.
These friendships will last all our lives.
We talked about what we appreciate about each of the "graduating" juniors. Then Erin talked about how we did today, how close we got to our goals, and what we need to do next.
Tomorrow: rest day, training, and competition for the Tour.
Does anyone know what time the Czech tv broadcast of the Middle Final will be? We were told it would be today, but not the time, and there's no information on JWOC website.
Not sure about the tv, but then it isn't Thursday yet, which is the day I saw mentioned. However, it looks like the GPS tracking is now available.
Yes, you are correct, and it is Thursday there as well, but maybe not Thursday enough yet. ;)
This is what I see -
In the Sport column, it looks like maybe 3 am - 24 hours from right now?
"Connor told me that it was instructive to see the video footage in the woods." It might also be instructive for the men to watch the GPS of Monday, showing just themselves against one or two selected others (leaders), following MJChild's instructions above. Ditto the women, after their GPS'd race.
Looks like the first showing is at 17:35 CZ time (~1 hour from now?), then replay at 3 AM? May have to wait until it plays live and then view it in the video archive?
Sprint: what's going on with all the DQs for the top men?
I can see live tracking for all active runners except Anna and Danielle - no trackers for them?
I also keep losing connection for the splits.
We could not see a tracker for Izzy either. Only Meg, which was fun to watch, except that the trackers are not very accurate in terms of position.
Just came back from the sprint. Don't know the reason for all the male DQs...presumably either mp or boundary violations. The announcer said quite quickly for one "my computer tells me he's DQd".
Meg and Ethan started at the same time and went through spectator control at same time. Ethan said he'd wait for her to finish, but didn't :)
Fun day -raining now.
This discussion thread is closed.