Before world champs there is only one 24h rogaining and I am Europe then. We need another one. Preferably in May. Please?
Sure I'll knock one up for you but it'll have to be June.
Here is one that is also in WA, just where you are!
sadly that WA is not this WA.
there is already a race in June.
australian sarcasm meet european bluntness. In a 24 hour spelling bee rogaine in some WA
The reason there aren't more of these things is because these things cost thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, of dollars to put on, and when people don't come, the organizer is in deep stuff. I suggest the
Eco-Endurance Challenge, they don't seem to have a problem with attendance.
Part of the reason for the at-least-one-24-hour-rogaine requirement for the WRC was so that people (not just elite rogainers like ledusledus) would be prompted to view the WRC as less of a novelty and more of an event worthy of preparing for, so that organizers of lesser events like us would see some increase in attendance. This isn't working. We are unlikely to put on another event that requires 300+ hours of work for 42 people, and I would imagine most clubs and non-clubs on the West Coast are in the same boat.
I originally just had "Sure I'll knock one up for you" in my original post, knowing how much work it involved to put one on.
I'm organising the August one next year (in the calendar in the above link), which just happens to be a week before the WRC but thankfully we here in the original (and best) WA don't need to worry about shelling out tens of thousands of dollars for permits (although the number of landholders I am expecting to contact daunts me a little). I can expect around 400 for attendance, which makes it all worthwhile.
I hate to break it to you tRicky, but that other WA beat us by
one year. :)
Our permits aren't in the tens of thousands (last time it was U.S. $1650, this time we cut a deal at $450, if we had 400 people it would have been $3250). But it all adds up, especially if you make a map professionally and the professional needs to eat.
We just use dodgy contour maps so it doesn't cost much at all!
Juffy is the new Greg Hunt ;)
Where we are, using dodgy contour maps costs us more attendees than realistic entry fees. You just can't win this one.
We have the contours already, and it doesn't pull aut roads at all, or vegetation the way we need it.
I'm sure I posted something here.
Anyway our base maps have contours (not intricate) and some tracks. Our setters tend not to do any updates and the local rogaining populace pretty much thinks rogaining maps are like this so don't complain overly but then we've promoted it as a social sport so 95% of our attendees treat it as such and come along to enjoy a weekend in the bush and food.
If someone in North America wants to take the social-sport-with-some-tracks model and run with it, they are certainly free to do so and have been for a long while.
Haha I don't necessarily agree with it; that's just the way it works here :-)
The same people triumph so no sense overdoing the preparation. Maybe it's arse-about down under and out West?
Who says our O-Maps are perfect, I am sure I found a rock that was missing once
I haven't played much with bay area data - just some little clips - and noticed it doesn't do that well there, would take some tuning.
http://routegadget.net/misc/joegrant.gif
Thanks Jagge for looking at one of my most favorite places. The obvious reason for why the contours are all wrong and distorted is, of course, that they were never right in the first place on that 1983 map. Just about every pre-lidar map in the Bay Area has severe geometric distortions, obvious when you try to upload your track into RouteGadget.
Vegetation is a more serious issue. It would be most important to give rogainers the correct idea of which places are impassable, or near impassable. I found that the patches of chaparral on the south-facing slopes are easy to see in the photo, but my vegetation density algorithm (far more primitive than Pullauttin) doesn't pick them up. North-facing slopes have stuff that is impossible to see under the canopy either way (photo or lidar veg density).
Also, that Santa Clara County lidar has ~1.3 m post spacing, which may not be fine enough for Pullauttin to get the rock features. In any case, more of my time recently was spent on tracing roads in the photo than on making vegetation usable. Pullauttin can't quite do linear features yet, can it?
Doesn't do that well? Looks pretty good to me!
Consider doing the CNYO Regaine, usually in May. Not a 24 hr rogaine, but a 24 hr. event of four short rogaines strung together with mandatory rest breaks in between so that you can go solo. ideal for practicing technique of route planning, map interpretation, and a lot of night work. good practice. not the thing if you are just looking for a 24 hr. event just for doing a 24 hr. event. of note - the 24 hr event requirement goes away during the later phases of registration for the wrc, so if that is your concern just go ahead and apply to the wait list now - slots are allotted preferentially based on date of application for the non prequalifieds, so earlier
application is bettrer than later.
A multi-stage rogaine. Nice. Could be tougher than 24hrs straight.
Yep I agree. I always though multi-day staged ARs were harder than continuous ones given you generally had to get up at stupid o'clock to start over the next day.
Vegetation is a more serious issue. It would be most important to give rogainers the correct idea of which places are impassable, or near impassable.
Here in the second best WA our rogaine maps don't show vegetation changes at all (except occasionally pine forest that already appears on the base map), hence why you get complaints from seasoned orienteers about the unfairness of it all whereas the social rogainer would be more likely to complain if there were colours on the map because they couldn't read it. It would take forever to update a 1:50,000 map that filled an A3 sheet (and not cost effective for areas that are only used once every three to five years) so we go with what works best here and doesn't drain the coffers.
The 24h rogaine is more a need for good training before WRC than fulfilling the requirement.
In April, you could do the Rock Creek Ramble and clear the 10-hour course, and then go back out and pick up all the controls.
And then there is a 50 k before. We will do that in April.
Maybe you should consider ultra running instead. The same demanding endurance profile, a positive social culture, and, of course, no financial whining and other negativity promulgated by the for-profit operators of competing products that have both structural cost disadvantages, and inferior market appeal. (As an aside, the latter is fine, whining about, however, is pretty lame, especially by putative "capitalists". I ain't got no PhD in economics, but my "horse sense" in the Dismal Science suggests providing a product people want and a price point they want that is superior to the competition is a better idea than whining, but WDIK?).
If people don't want to pay what the events cost, events won't happen. If people like you, who are largely incapable of creating anything useful in this world, put down organizers, which you have been fond of doing regularly on this forum dating back years, these events certainly won't happen. As simple as that. You should also check your references; we are a nonprofit, and the absolute majority of ultras you speak of are for-profits.
There are no complaints about fees and few put-downs in the trailrunning culture precisely because participants understand the dynamics; if you don't support the organizers, there will be no events. I hope the attitude you carry does not poison that dynamic, since you've been frequenting trail runs recently.
You should all move to the second best WA. Rogaining has a positive social culture, is very affordable (approx A$30-$35 for events, which includes food) and is not-for-profit. The only downside is our vastly inferior maps ;-) and yet we've still produced national champions.
The rogaining culture in N.A. seems to be very positive. Sharing food, transportation, lodging before and after, co-authoring articles for publication. Very convivial, so what Randy is talking about seems to be as obscure as the idea that ultra running is training for rogaining (the two sports are quite divergent, both are well worth while, but participation in one would be unlikely to prepare yourself for doing well in the other). The non positive culture experienced by many of us is the attitude of other map and compass enthusiasts, notably "classic orienteers" towards what they consider to be an inferior sport that competes with their events for venues, personnel and resources. This is taken as about as literal a quotation as I can manage from the classic O enthusiasts emails, so don't blame me for sour grapes, they aren't mine.
As a participant over the years in classic O, large trail running events such as the Cruce de los Andes, numerous 24 hr. rogaines, scrambles, sprint courses, etc., I have not noted a negative culture in any of them. Only the current attitude towards Rogaining and other "non Classic" O events by orienteers has been frequent, notable, and of concern to those of us who are administratively and personally invested in the growth and diversity of sport.
Back to the original question of the thread - the lack of 24 hr. events in the North American calendar is a concern to many of us, and we are working toward and asking/receiving assistance in this from Rogainers in the U.S. and Australia (much appreciated). OUSA is also kicking in support in regards to the WRC, so perhaps we will be more successful in building a more enthusiastic calendar of events by promoting more cooperation between entities, a goal well worth pursuing.
Maybe we should start an informal free-style poll: "If a 24-hour rogaine were to be held in the general vicinity of X in months Y through Z of 2014 or 2015, I would most likely come". If you have a cap for what you'd pay, and are willing to put that info forward, please also indicate it.
I have more time for 2014 than thought a couple weeks ago, since we aren't having the 2014 Street Scramble season, but we are still unsure whether our planned 24-hour event or the Adventure Trex will proceed (the shorter rogaines almost certainly will). In any case, either one is after the WRC. There are between two and four weekends open in the local club's schedule that we can possibly contemplate for a 24-hour rogaine, but two of them clash with the other two North American 24-hour rogaines, Eco-Endurance Challenge and CNYO's event, so there really isn't a chance we will be able to add something even if there are say 50+ people coming forward and saying they'll come to the Bay Area and do it.
As much as I am hopeful about the development of rogaining in North America, one of the sad possibilities is that demand just isn't there for the 24-hour variety to justify the costs of putting them on, unless the event is a World Championship. We can still hope that organizers subsidize these events from either the proceeds of concurrent shorter events, the club coffers, or personal largess, but this isn't sustainable.
Incidentally, there were a few attackpointers indicating they might attend the June 2014 Sage OC Rogaine in Kamloops. The same event was later added a second time by another poster once it had a name and website, so I deleted my original post from the the events listing. So there is no confusion,
Rage the Sage is the same event as originally posted, then deleted.
I think perhaps this may be the Rogaine ledusledus was referring to in his original post, but can't attend as he will be in Europe. I know I was certainly happy to see this being organized in my backyard 2 months before the WRC.
Thanks for adding the event, Bryan! This makes for 3 24-hour events in 2014, plus the WRC. Perhaps this is all the market will support.
I personally sadly cannot attend this one because I already made plans to be at the European Rogaining Champs, which is the previous weekend.
What happened to the Street Scramble season in SF?
Maybe it got swallowed by money in orienteering?
We're regrouping. We couldn't afford to do decent promotion, so weren't gathering enough attendance to pay the direct event costs (our Street Scramble staff has always been unpaid, including all of Get Lost!!'s principals). We have just gained three people who are dedicated to making Street Scramble a success; some of them will specifically work on promotion. We plan to relaunch Street Scramble as an interactive app-based game for runners, cyclists, and hikers in late 2014.
Vlad, has CNYO set a date for 2014? Don't see anything on the OUSA or CNYO schedules yet. Just want to make sure I block out potential weekends early, even if dates are tentative.
I don't think it has, but whatever weekend we would have available in July is likely to be the same or within one week of the CNYO rogaine. Anyhow Eric Smith will know a lot more.
Thanks, I just inferred from your previous comment that a date had been set. Will sit tight and wait for official word from CNYO.
The Rogaine Committee was notified that CNYO will hold its annual rogaine in 2014 in the usual general July timeframe, but I don't think we heard the exact date.
Other than CNYO Rogaine and the WRC, no other events have been scheduled with certainty in the U.S. in 2014. Eco-Endurance Challenge has been announced, and we just learned about Rage the Sage. Montbleu may have one and they may not; Get Lost!! may or may not have both a 24-hour event (September) and the Adventure Trex (November). MerGeo may or may not have a 24-hour event at the Three15er in October.
I am not sure what the appeal to the races after WRC are. You train for WRC, trash yourself there and then do something else.
I have lots of motivation to go do something before. After that it is re-evaluation time and probably money saving time again.
Competitors in the WRC that are coming from across the pond may have several weeks vacation time - a tradition in many countries. Offering additional events in O and Rogaining before and after the WRC might be of significant interest to these folks, especially if they are held in different parts of the U.S./Canada.
No you don't understand. You do the World Whatever Champs then get bored of that sport after achieving a world ranking and go do some other World Whatever Champs afterwards.
There is Rogaine world ranking? Please share the link. If I am high enough I don't even need to do the World Whatever Champs next year. Might go straight to preparations for the Wife Carrying World Championships.
I don't understand what tRicky is saying. But as a matter of record - I am right, he is wrong.
We had a state ranking once that was based on how well you'd done in the previous season but allowed you to 'drop' one or two low placed events in case you went "social". I just assumed the world ranking would be similar to that. However, ledusledus is right in that I am wrong.
What I am learning from this thread is that rogainers have a much better sense of sarcasm (defined as the ability to not take tRicky's comments literally) when compared with pure orienteers - the complete literalness is noticeable if anyone (other than tRicky) has been reading the thread on Money in Orienteering.
Now, if I only were a psychoanalyst, I could write a thesis on why rogainers are better at sarcasm. Possibly it's something to do with our pain threshold?
Seems like we have... a single vote for a 24-hour rogaine before the WRC.
The reason we won't consider a rogaine before the WRC is that we have a single non-hot-weather venue, and it doesn't really work that well as a rogaine venue. I didn't think that any piece of steep terrain could fail as a rogaine venue, but live and learn.
I'd prefer to see an eastern 24 hour in the May/June time frame, but that appears unlikely (E2C is a possibility). Will hope CNYO does another regaine this year...
For all WRC competitors who want additional O events leading up to the WRC, Rocky Mt. Orienteering Club is hosting the 2014 US Classic Champs in Lake George, CO, the weekend before: Aug. 9 - 10. In addition, the week before the Classic Champs, Laramie Range Orienteering Club will be holding some races in Wyoming. All information can be found here (and new info will be added):
2014 US Classic Champs
All clubs that want publicity about their pre- and post-WRC events spread far and wide should contact the Rogaine Committee. We'll be sending flyers and emails to several other countries and large events.
Two votes for a pre WRC rogaine
There are at least 20 people that have signed up for the WRC from WA (the best one). Maybe we can all get together and do a 24 hour training event or two some weekends in April and / or early May. Plus the June BC, Canada event and here you go, three 24 hour practice events. More people will join for sure.
We have multiple maps in a good to great condition for a rogaine that does not need additional work.
Just agree on a fee to use the map/ get area permit.
Get someone to throw 60 circles on it. I am sure we can find volunteer (use easier checkpoints on prominent features)
Get bunch of biodegradable streamers, and spread them to the top 2 - 3 teams that will probably be first to visit each checkpoint.
Make teams use GPS watches if we insist on some kind of replay/results.
Yes, No, do I sound childish....
After organized adventure racing died for most practical purposes in California (not to put down the surviving organizers; they produce awesome events, but only once a year for a total of two), a very similar approach was proposed. It lasted for exactly one season, and only lasted this long because of the labors of one person. My take is that neither adventure races nor rogaines are a good fit for crowdsourcing; I'll be very happy if the better WA proves CA wrong.
the better CA or the other CA?
Whichever CA has no more adventure racing (hint: a lesson)... that wouldn't be the northern one...
the southern part of the northern one is farther south than the northern part of the southern one.
the complete literalness is noticeable if anyone (other than tRicky) has been reading the thread on Money in Orienteering.
I stopped reading that thread after I last insulted kofols in case he insulted me back and I couldn't handle it.
There are at least 20 people that have signed up for the WRC from WA (the best one).
The second best WA on the far side of the world also has about 20 people intending to attend. Does that mean we are better because we travel further?
We should have friendly a
WA-WA meetup while we're all there.
And we can have a friendly WA v's WA challenge whilst we're there. Loser buys beers (and a lemonade for tRicky).
I'm not going. I'll be too busy recovering from the rogaine I'm not competing in the previous wekend.
tRicky is afraid of kofols, I assume.
On other hand - I realized the ERC2014 is going to be in great timeframe - 7/8 of June. And I will be in Latvia, so it makes it kind-of easy to get there. Now I need to figure out the children-duty there.
Children are taxed just like any other imported substance.
Right, the ERC is the place to be. Great competition! See you there.
If you're from WA and you're going to WRC, click here:
http://attackpoint.org/eventdetail.jsp/event_17952
tRicky - don't count on recovering too long, you may yet be dragged out of the wilderness.
At last, a rogaine in UK: Marmot 24, 2nd / 3rd Aug 2014 :-)
Darn! too close to the WRC, otherwise I'd go.
A rogaine in the UK? Next thing we'll be hearing about mountain marathons in Australia.
Yeah but the UK race is being marketed as
marmot 24 hour mountain marathon
Only in the finer print do we see the word rogaine (and that is a good thing).
There is no 'g' in 'marmot 24 hour mountain marathon'.
Very few people in the UK that will potentially do this will of heard of rogaines but they will understand mountain marathon. The format looks to be classic rogaine though so it's just a marketing thing.
This discussion thread is closed.