I used to go for lunch time rides with guys from work. We did the same out and back, 12 miles total in about 30'. I joined after they had been doing it for a while. One of the guys remembered how he had been riding that route for two years, plus sometimes going to/from home, before realizing that there was a golf course at about the four mile mark. He was totally focussed, and very good - CT State Champ several times. They would blow me up totally except this was a loosening up ride for them so they toyed with me;-}
I totally agree about the boring part - I'm never bored in a running race. I often wish I was orienteering just so it wouldn't hurt so much, but I'm sure not bored.
Much smarter folks than you? Ha! Name even one.
(Trick question because if you do name someone, it means you are truly losing it.)
Ok, I'll stick my neck out, so here's just a quick selection from my "favorites" list (in order of who happens to have trained the most in the last week) -- ebuckley, barb, Cristina, tomwcarr, Sandy, PBricker, Kat, Charlie, Ken, Wyatt, BorisGr, jjcote, Spike, and Tundra/Desert. And that's just for starters, only includes some of the ones I'm 100% sure of. There are a bunch of others I'm 95% sure are smarter.
Trick question because if you do name someone, it means you are truly losing it.
So I'm losing it, that's news? And even if I ever had it, I wasn't in the league of these guys. I'd guess my favorites list has an average IQ of about 150.
Of course, there aren't any Australians or adventure racers on it.... :-)
Well, there are some pretty smart people on that list. But speaking just for myself: In PG's league? Maybe. As smart as PG? Unlikely. Smarter than PG? Certainly not. There are a lot of ways to measure smarts, and PG would certainly outrank me on most of the ones relevant to our common interests. In terms of the question at hand, what occupies one's mind while exercising, I often think about one of PG's most amazing stunts, the ability to rattle off the amount on climb on each leg immediately after finishing a course, without looking at the map. It was incredible to watch a collection of the US elites staring at the US Champs map from Nevada in amazement as PG listed the number of lines, leg by leg, as Swampfox counted and confirmed. Shows that there's something qualitatively different going on in PG's head with respect to navigation.
What a sandbagger! I wonder what PG tells folks his stroke handicap is, prior to going out for some O' practice, with a gentlemanly wager on the line--20? 40? Even more? He's so notorious, bookies in Vegas won't even pick up the phone when he tries to put on a bet.
YES! I have been puzzling about the climb thing!!!!
My theory is that he does it by looking ahead and judging climb on something he sees ahead of him. As opposed to doing it by magic.
True or false?
No, it's definitely magic. PG is a very smart fellow in many, many ways, but the map thing is the most uncanny. He has a habit of carrying a road atlas on plane trips and keeps in contact a good part of the time. I recall flying into St. Louis with him one time, and shortly after diving out of the clouds he is back in contact and announces an error in the atlas. Another time I picked him up at the airport in Birmingham AL. I had been there working for a week and he was flying in for a meet. As we left the airport, and without any prior knowledge of where we were going, he started giving me route advice based on traffic patterns he had observed from the air.
He distills details from a map in a glance that I can observe only through careful study. I can read a map kind of the way I can read French: painstakingly word by word. PG is a native speaker (of maps that is).
Yeah, but we're talking *specifically* about how he estimates climb. And I don't believe in magic.
Well, yes. I suppose there is a rational explanation along those lines. He is always paying attention, and, since he is interested in the climb he is estimating it as he goes along, and he has a terrific memory.
It is interesting to me to go in the woods with people of different backgrounds and see what they see. Orienteers are obviously quite interested in and observant of the shape of the land. Foresters may be thinking about what the trees growing tell them about the composition of the soil. Biologists may be observing habitat niches. Surveyors see tiny evidences of prior use that may indicate boundaries. To each of these people, what they see may be quite obvious to them, but the conclusions they can draw are magical to the uninitiated.
I assume he's counting the lines on the map, at a basic level. Nothing mysterious, nothing that any of the rest of us couldn't do. Given enough time and some paper to make notes, that is.
And I don't believe in magic.
Yeah, well, Don Herbert is dead, so it's just us muggles left, now.
I often think about one of PG's most amazing stunts, the ability to rattle off the amount on climb on each leg immediately after finishing a course, without looking at the map.
It's funny how you take some things for granted while other things seem amazing. I think what JJ and Charlie and Barb do at work is amazing.
I've never seen the need to carry one of those GPS gadgets to tell me where I've been, because I'm sure I can draw the line on the map more accurately than it can. (That's not to say I always know where I am or where I'm going at the moment, but after the fact it's simple to recreate the route.) And I get very frustrated with altimeters because they just aren't accurate enough compared to what the map tells you. So again, after the fact, it's always seemed simple to recall how much I've climbed, even if I'm not looking at the map.
None of the above is due to any special magic, I just have a very, very selective memory. I can't remember names. I can't remember conversations, I can't remember any of the words to songs I may have heard a thousand times. I can remember just about nothing from what I learned in school.
I seem to be able to remember 3-dimensional terrain. When I used to race alpine skiing in college, you had to memorize the gates and the flow through the terrain, and years later (and even to some extent now) I could remember the courses. I play a round of golf and I have no problem remembering every shot, with all the details (lie, slopes, trajectory, bounces). And ditto for O', somehow it just registers, and sticks for a long time.
I do remember sitting with JJ and others, counting the lines of climb out at Spooner Lake even though I hadn't looked at the map since finishing. It was simple, I assume because the details of the map all got imprinted in my mind while I was out on the course.
But how or why it happens, I haven't a clue.
Yeah, but we're talking *specifically* about how he estimates climb. And I don't believe in magic.
But this is something different. This isn't memory. This is just basic O' skills. There's almost always something on the map and in the terrain that will tell you what you need to know to determine heights. And if there really is nothing, then you just do vertical pacing. And that's something I practice. A lot. Usually just out of curiosity as to whether I can get it right. But it's mostly just really precise map reading (there are almost always little variations in slope).
There are a lot of ways to measure smarts, and PG would certainly outrank me on most of the ones relevant to our common interests.
JJ is being very generous. But I would maintain that JJ has smarts in ways that are useful in the real world, as opposed to mine (I mean, it's not all that useful to be able to remember every ski course or golf shot or O' leg). JJ is smart is ways I can't even start to comprehend. Ditto for Charlie. Ditto for Barb. There's no way I'm in their league, or that of any of the others on the list.
But it's nice to be good at something, even something with no redeeming social value.... :-)
But none of this really matters, because smart will only get you so far. What you really want to be is interesting. And none of us is as interesting as Stan. :-)
Wasn't the exact quote something like, "I'm a very interesting guy, if I do say so myself."
Self-esteem is generally a good thing, up to a point.... :-)
I can't remember any of the words to songs I may have heard a thousand times.
The inability to remember songs is a tremendous benefit. I, on the other hand, can sing word-for-word through a vast array of broadway shows, and often find myself doing this while exercising. So much for concentration on the task at hand.
I often think about one of PG's most amazing stunts, the ability to rattle off the amount on climb on each leg immediately after finishing a course, without looking at the map.
Ran a local meet at Paugusset earlier today, then decided a few hours later to see if I could still do this. Though the results are somewhat compromised by the fact that I have run on the map before, and that I looked at it for a couple of minutes right after I ran, when I was comparing routes with Joe (though I wasn't focused at all on how much climb there was).
So the first column is the number of lines of climb I've just estimated, no looking at the map for about 5 hours, based on the route I took. No peeking.
And the second column is the number of lines that I calculate from looking at the map after I had made all my guesses, again based on the route I took --
6 5
7 7
10 10
1 1
4 4
4 4
5 5
5 6
3 3
5 4
3 3
8 8
3 2
0 0
0 1
0 0
64 63
Pretty close.... :-)
Today's map.
Well, I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel the need to turn down a compliment, so I won't debate the smarter part. However, it's really clear that PG is waaaaay better than me at remembering how many contour lines he crosses. A niche skill, to be sure, but an impressive one.
As I recall the "Affair at Spooner Lake", the real interesting part of the contour discussion was the determination of par for the Blue course afterwards, without the use of the map of course.
I also competed at Paugusset today, and certainly couldn't have estimated the climb. Actually, I find it very difficult to count those tiny lines on the map after I'm all done. A couple of days ago
this link was posted on Cristina's log, and I read it several times. I was thinking about the concept of map simplification and finding specific important waypoints as I was orienteering today. I found that I don't have adequate map memory to operate with as few details as Thierry did, but the process of trying helped me concentrate more and maintain better contact for about half way around the course, until I got tired and started drifting.
This discussion thread is closed.