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Attackpoint - performance and training tools for orienteering athletes

Discussion: Remap support , Refresh a NJ Passsaic County HVO mentor sought

in: Orienteering; News

Jul 4, 2017 3:21 AM # 
Hello, I just joined Attack Point, for a reason. I propose a new effort to do a best effort and good enough map revision of the Little used HVO Ramapo Lake State Park for a TBD date in 4 to 6 months, (I desire to be the event Course setter). I desire a mentor or experienced HVO or DVOA mentor to help me refine my Plans - ... Person must know either how to scan this Non -CAD map in and by Late August incorporate Trail changes OR tell me other OCAD approach to get this map done and mostly ready by Mid November 2017 (and the wise volunteer will NOT mention a time wasting and costly 1 year or longer LIDAR effort...). Target is for a just" good enough" map (for HVO) by just adding trails (missing, newly created (trail bike activity) or faint or abandoned in many cases) in the west part of the map which (long story) needs to be done as the previous HVO meets have used Skyline road parkin lots which are too small for a B orienteering meet. Meet HQ and start triangle would with permit, at the Town of Wanaque Back Beach park and parking lot., which abuts the State Park using a Hunter rock rubble foot bridge crossing the normally uncrossable Wanaque river (too deep for dry foot crossings). New trails are needed to add to the map to help Orienteer's cross ridges in this state park into pristine and little used intense O controls. Please send comment or name/ phone numbers via email exchange. I hope for help and assistance and No ROG comments. Thanks Bob R HVO/ DVOA
Jul 4, 2017 5:08 AM # 
This old git remembers orienteering there many decades ago. Nice area, iirc. Good luck getting something going. Open Orienteering Mapper is an alternative to OCAD, if you don't already have a copy of the latter.

I've found that one good way to add trails is to GPS them, import them into a georeferenced O map, and then adjust them relative to features. Depending on circumstances, this could be easier than a lot of compass and pace, though often just eyeballing the trails onto the map can produce an adequate result.

It sounds like you'll want to draft the map into OOM or OCAD, though, as a possibly "good enough" alternative, conceivably you could load a scan of the map as template, draw just the added trails, and set options to print both the template and added trails as the final map. The latter doesn't facilitate removal of trails, though.

HTH, from a grumpy git.
Jul 4, 2017 9:47 AM # 
i'm also not an HVO or DVOA member but I like where you are going with the idea of bringing an old pen-drawn map in to the digital world. It can be a labor-intensive project but it is not hard work. You can also come out with a geo-referenced product.
This method can be used if you just cannot get new LiDAR information in a timely or affordable manner.
Find, select and EXPORT the area in the program Open Street Map. Name and save the downloaded file in a specific folder.
If you are using OCAD 12 you can import the OSM file. You will be asked to identify the UTM zone (18 North for New Jersey), save a .crt file etc. All is good
The OCAD map will import a large array of symbols, some line, some blocks of areas. All are red and your first reaction might be the same as mine - WTF!!!!
But all worked out. Converting the symbols is simply a few clicks (look to a box in the lower left corner to identify the highlighted symbol. Even though they are all red the program knows whether they are a road, trail, powerline, etc)
If you are using an earlier version of OCAD you have two choices 1) import the OSM file to Open Orienteering Mapper and work there or do the import to OOM and save it as an OCAD file (OCAD 8) which you can then convert to the version of OCAD you are using.
Then the fun begins: put a jpeg of your best version of the old map in to the background of the new map, line it up as best you can and start tracing in contours, rock features, trails, buildings, etc. If you are not sure the feature will still be there trace it in in purple. You can correct it later.
You can also use orthophotos or in a pinch google earth images in background to gain more information that might not be on the old map.
I love the idea of bringing old areas back to orienteering by making digital versions of old maps. Best wishes for a successful project.
Jul 4, 2017 4:02 PM # 
Bob R I tried to send you something to show you what an Open Street Map converted to OCAD map looks like but it bounced back from the address in your AP profile.
Jul 4, 2017 4:16 PM # 
The bulk of the old map depicts NJ's Ramapo Mountain SF.

@gordhun: Address should be ""
Jul 4, 2017 5:11 PM # 
Target is for a just" good enough" map (for HVO) by just adding trails...

Is this really "good enough" for HVO? By just adding trails?
HVO is abbreviation for high standards and top quality
Jul 4, 2017 6:04 PM # 
OK fellows, thanks for the great comments. I am not Doctor Who (wave my Screwdriver and make it happen (I am danger in the room of enemy's when you think I am losing ...) ) nor am I Nardole (whip open a PC and hit revise and print that Old map (with tech savy), also while making rude comments ..."Hemm . Orienteering ... thats Nice!)"

I am Old school retired Course Setter (long story) living 1/4 mile fom this park, frustrated that after many years No one has heard my voice (4 yrs) about the Back Beach Foot Bridge (half the park is in Oakland, the other half in Wanaque. Sometimes the obvious, NB. using a Black and White map or hand drawing in a spur trail is "A Bridge too Far" for purist's. I see HVO needs old hands like myself to shake up the membership, which HVO has notorious volunteer (lack of) retention problem. FOR THE RECORD, I am not apart of a society that just pays its 13 dollars for a current movie at the cinema, then sits back... , if I see O issues I fix them on a best effort basis (like arriving early at basto SP NJ to help out) , in this case a rarely used NJ Ramapo map is languishing because it was only an analog offset printed map.

My Email is rrycharski345 @ optonline dot net . I see a great O park, I find the town will not charge for parking (maybe for shelter or rest room rentals as they are normally locked), and as I bi-weekly train on this map, I figured, Why Not, GO FOR IT! A good enough map is proposed as it gets local interest, is still OK for a local O meet, and I plan to set fair courses based whats on the current map, AND its just so pretty a map with nice trails and challenges for all to find. For those that have not been to Ramapo st Park, the Oakland parking lots get full early and the local bears have fun giving out Green, get out-of -Jail fee cards to the windshields (get to park lots on skyline road early (there are 2) or risk having no parking on weekends.) So stay tuned, I am winging this for you, local potential O runners. Lets says that I Run more slowly' these days' but as Ld. Voldemort said,":I have just enough energy for this" ...

THat and I have the luck these days to get others hopefully to do/fix the map, I am a pace and direction trail mapper (low tech works just fine), and I do i for the" pay it forward " reason, to show others to volunteer and if just One- of- you ... all come to this O meet, and shake my hand and say "thanks" for the 2017 Ramapo Romp! (TM) , that this crazy world we live in with Gov Chisti (fatso) in a beach chair (another idiot), people who say you can't do that, and young ones glued too long in front of - video games - & hope I may revert a few to the go Green/get outdoors and get running or hiking...theme of many years past. Just trying to remember the Ringo's also, what would they suggest ? I hear Caroline's sweet DVOA voice saying, Go For it Bob, and God bless. We will be there in spirit ...
Jul 4, 2017 7:13 PM # 
New Jersey citizens, your parks are YOURS. Take them back. Tell governor and all police locking park gate or blocking entry is not essential task.
Jul 4, 2017 9:15 PM # 
@Carlotta: NJ shutdown ended last night.
Jul 5, 2017 1:26 AM # 
I can draft the map for you if you can get me a clean paper copy, Bob. (My 1991 race map won't do.) I don't have a copy in front of me, so I can't estimate a completion date yet.
Jul 5, 2017 2:59 AM # 
Was day two of NAOC 2000 on that map?
Jul 5, 2017 2:23 PM # 
NAOC 2000, Day 2 was Ringwood SP, Shepherd's Pond .
North from Ramapo, along same ridge, at NY line.
Jul 5, 2017 2:49 PM # 
Thanks Guy. I remember it was great other than the hill M21 had to climb at the end.
Jul 7, 2017 11:57 PM # 
There is a mapping project associated with OUSA that is starting to work on this kind of issue. It is still in its infancy but it should be able to help with mentoring for mappers. Remapping is not trivial, it is not especially difficult but it time consuming. At the same time, help directing a mapper in the right direction can save lots of time.
Jul 8, 2017 12:08 AM # 
Remapping a map that was originally good, and still likely has mostly accurate contours, rocks and such, may be easier though than starting a new map for a newer mapper (which I'm inferring, perhaps incorrectly, Bob is).
Jul 10, 2017 10:47 PM # 
thanks for all the suggestions. Jim Baker hit the target on the nose BTW. I will trust Guy O has the mapper (the mysterious Max Kramer, you all know him as he person that talked pilot Ted Stryker down to the Ground in AIRPLANE! in Chicago). He is the only chance to get this map done for Thanksgiving weekend, so I will calm down a bit and let Max land the plane, I mean make the Map the best he could. I have been out in the field, studying and mapping the missing (or disappeared) trails (7 or 8 trails) in the west of the ramapo Lake/Wanaque Forest Park tbd map, where the HVO A meet in the 80's did not get field checked.

Anyway, Any HVO readers, I seek a volunteer Meet Director, maybe Lt. George Zipp ( or You), I am the course setter, and othe TBD volunteers will be needed in tentatively 25 Nov, the Saturday during thanksgiving. This is again subject to change and permit approval but it will take advantage of not stepping on Other local Nov. club O meets also scheduled yet allow me to contact/encourage club members and Scout groups to book/save the date. If anyone knows me, ever since attending DVOA Masoc in the 70's, I have been trying with fits and starts, local Scout O (B) meets in New Jersey. So once again into the fire we GO, wish me luck (not to get lost in B meet, paperwork), pray for LIDAR (Revised) on time O Map delivery, and that the volunteers come forward closer to the B meet.

About Meet Weather, I am an oddball, All but 1 (Lewis Morris) O meets (~43 meets or games) in over 40 years that I have been MD or CS have had sunny or near Dry weather for HVO and DVOA O meets (member of both), ITS all hindsight but I BOOK BY IT. (98% dry rate). Much nicer to do Orienteering in dry clothes, and we could smell Good at the End Run. Lets all win one for the Zipper and NJ O runners. Good Luck and see you in the NJ Woods next fall in Wanaque, NJ.

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