Discussion: US Champs RouteGadget

US Championship Sprints

US Championship Day 1 & WRE

US Championship Day 2 (White through Brown)

US Championship Day 2 (Green to Blue)

Anyone out there on White through Brown on Sunday? If so, can you see if you can draw a route in for me please. I would like to confirm that it is working. Thanks.

Hey everyone, put your routes on! It's easy (just click to add each turning point of your route). Viewing as a mass start is so cool, and instructive.

And embarrasing in some cases :)
Seriously now, RouteGadget is really really valuable tool, especially if you pair it with a GPS

I was watching some routes on RouteGadget today with dad and our conversation went something like this:

Situation: Person 1 is behind Person 2, but Person 1 wins the race.
Me: Well, I know Person 1 going to get ahead, but when is Person 2 going to make the mistake? I bet it's on this one... no, or this one... no. Well, now all the rest look easy!
Dad: I bet it's on the next one... ok, he's going up the hill.
Me: Oh no! The wrong spur! He's looking around.
Dad: Even the greens match up.
Me: Look, Person 1 is gaining!
Dad: Oh no! Person 2 is going all the way back to relocate.
Me: And he tries again.
Both of us: And he misses again! Right by the circle!
Me: And Person 1 gets ahead! Clear victory!

All in all, much fun was had :) I would have watched more but I really had to move on.

So more people should add their routes - great amusement and great learning tool.

Thanks for the encouragement to add routes to RG, Jeff, Samantha, and Nikolay. It is always disappointing that we don't even get 10% of the people draw their routes. Let's see if we can break that trend this time.

Wow -- that GPS feature is so cool! This is the first time I've tried RG with a GPX import. In the animation, it seems to account for my variable speed between controls (ranging from slow to very slow to stationary). I assume it's just using a consistent average speed between controls for the other runners.

Route Gadget was used to show the races unfolding among the top 3 F/M21 finishers at the Western Canadian Championships last month. It was great after-banquet entertainment, and there was plenty of ooooh-ing and ahhh-ing from the audience.

I sat down this morning to draw in my routes on Saturday Blue... and I couldn't remember my routes on certain legs. I kept tilting my head at the screen trying to figure out what I did.

I'll try again later with my real map in hand.

variable speed between controls
There is time stamp for each gps point in GPX file. RG uses these values and it does not use regular split times or finish time at all. So if you stop for 35 sec for tying shoe laces, you might not see it at all in track line, but you will see it in animation.

I'm trying to draw in my routes, but I can't get the Day 1 and 2 maps to load... Any trick I should use?

I had been assuming that it was against the rules to carry a GPS on the course but it appears that a number of people do. So is it safe to say one can carry a GPS to record the route as long as it is not 'used' for navigation purposes during competition? Not that I can see it providing any advantage there anyway.

Those map images are big, I guess you get some sort of "Out of memory" message in your java console. Reboot, install better java plugin, use other computer.

http://java.sun.com/products/archive/

I use plugin 1.5.12, I think it's faster than new 1.6.x versions.

Technically, it's probably a rules violation to bring a GPS with you. Technically, it's apparently a rules violation to wear a heart-rate monitor in competition (at least, that was the ruling of the meet officials at a WOC 20 years ago or so). In practice, I can't imagine anyone getting worked up about a GPS, and if somebody did complain, the worst thing that could happen is that your run wouldn't count for the day in question — big deal. The exception is that USMAOC runners probably shouldn't take the risk, because if there were a protest, it could escalate to being considered an case of cheating, and they could then have to face the consequences of the Cadet Code of Honor (I'm serious about this, Jon Campbell and I had a discussionabout it on Sunday). Seems to me that it would be reasonable to make some sort of provision for this, maybe allowing GPS units that don't have the ability to display maps (e.g. wristwatch units). Of course, the 1000-Day explicitly allows any navigational aids that you might want to bring, including microwave ovens.

Yes, Boris, the maps for the advanced courses were a bit large. Not as large as the 3.5 MB I was originally asked to use, but still larger than the 1 MB or less I try to stick to. Hopefully, Jarkko suggestions will work for you.

Routes drawn:

Sprint 33/265
Day 1 47/523
Day 2 (W-Br) 11/163
Day 2 (G-Bl) 35/336

Let's see if we can double those numbers.

It's not the file size (MB), it is image size in pixels (with x height).

Oh, thanks, J, that is good to know.

I love it when I can't get an app to work and people suggest that I simply "get a better computer." I've had this cartoon taped to my (UNIX) computer monitor for years and it still makes me laugh:

Partly because I used to work for a guy who resembles the dude in suspenders, and when I showed this to him he said "yes, and it even sounds like something I might say."

GPS tracker, not a GPS...Isn't just a GPS tracker allowed? I seem to remember hearing dicussion about using GPS trackers in the big competitions with purpose of helping the sport be more spectator-freindly.

Drew my Sat course, will get to Sprint soon. That is so cool that you can draw the route!

Just a tracker, sure. But most GPS units that people own have some kind of display that can at least show UTM coordinates, and if somebody was fussy, they could claim that it can be used for navigation.

The rules read:
36.3 During the competition only a compass and the map provided by the organizer may be used for navigation.
36.3 Personal aids not used directly for navigation are permitted. (e.g. magnifying glass, flashlight, cane, eyeglasses)
36.4 The use of any navigation aid other than a compass is prohibited. (e.g. transport, electronic apparatus, radio, pedometer, altimeter)
which in my opinion includes some poor wording. (A magnifying glass isn't used for navigation, but transport is? How about a ruler?)

Garmin's Forerunner units can be set up to display distance traveled since the last time the lap button was pressed, which could be pretty useful navigational information. My Forerunner stays home for A-meets.

The rules do read "the use of any navigation aid other than a compass", which to me means that there's no reason you can't carry a gps unit as long as you're not using it for navigation. Semantics.

Of course, that puts a lot of trust in the competitors that they won't use them the way Glen describes. I often wear a Forerunner for competitions and leave the display on the "menu" page, which offers nothing more than the time of day (usually wrong anyway, in my case). If there were an objection or a rule prohibiting me from wearing it then I'd leave it at home.

I know some people will wear the gps unit somewhere inaccessible, like pinned to the inside of pants or shirt or something. Others just tape over the display. None of these are foolproof, of course, but probably serve to eliminate some suspicion.

This discussion has been up in Sweden as well. I think this was about 1-2 years ago and some guy wanted to run with gps, I think it was forerunner 301. He asked the Swedish orienteering association and they said that it was ok, because they thought it wasn't so exact that it could be used, and I guess this works as a prejudice in Sweden right now. A lot of people runs with them, and nobody has complained yet so. Also Mats Troeng runs with a tape covering the screen.
But it would be good with a real statement from maybe IOF clearing what is aloud.

The rules also prohibit following, but I've seen it. The rules also prohibit taking bags out of order, but I've seen it. My guess is that some people cheat with a GPS if the technology of their unit allows them to, but the vast majority do not.

My opinion, as USOF rules enforcer, is that it is on the honor system, and it is fine, as Cristina says, you don't use it for navigation. Whether this opinion would have any weight at West Point, a meet jury, or anywhere else I have no clue, but there it is, FWIW.

Semantics, I agree.

If I were to carry one, it would be in a zipped pocket of my trailrunning pack which is where it stays when I'm just out running. But since someone could argue that it 'could' be used, I'd want a clear ruling on whether one could carry it in such a fashion. But I think that for those meets where RouteGadget analysis is going to be provided, it would be a much better tool to load the GPX file up, as it would more clearly show the degree of 'hunting' and accurately show the slowdowns/hesitations on each leg.

If you read the rules and were to enforce them rigidly, I suppose the use of a wristwatch would be illegal too as you could readily use it to measure the running time of a leg and thus estimate how far along a leg you were. But most everyone wears a watch on the course and I've never heard of any disputes because of it.

If memory serves, at the WOC decision that I mentioned above that prohibited HRMs, the decision was also made that a watch was okay. I have no idea what their reasoning was.

...and these days, they have been allowing HRMs in the WOC as well. No explanation why or why not now, either. Not that the current crop of GPS units would be (to my mind anyway) very useful in speeding up a top competitor in a WOC race. I don't imagine Simone or Theirry going any faster with a GPS than they already do!

If you read the rules and were to enforce them rigidly, I suppose the use of a wristwatch would be illegal too as you could readily use it to measure the running time of a leg and thus estimate how far along a leg you were.

Technique used with an acceptable level of accuracy and comparable usefullness to pace counting in flat to open rolling areas. It really keeps your mind free of counting as it is much easier to look at your watch now and then untill you have run for say 1:40 seconds.
So one very well could argue that simple watch is a tool other than a compass or map helping ones navigation.

Another issue: I see that the Shunto GPS units have a compass feature. Think for a moment: on this long leg you take couple seconds to get a precise bearing and start running. Then glance at your watch and get the degree you are heading in. All is left is watch you unit and compensate to stay on this heading. One would argue that's what we should be doing with our compasses anyway so it is not of a big advantage, but your needle takes .5 to 1 second to stabilize (ify ou hve the best compasses), and if you try to run with your compass leveled for constant easy glance you are slowing yourself down.
So I think that constant feedback of you heading from your watch counts as a navigational help and a person will be able to follow it much faster than a compass needle.

Anyone with s Shunto or other GPS units with compass feature to comment on my assumptions?

Nothing wrong with using the best compass available, as far as I can see. And I don't know of any rule saying that a compass has to be a magnet mounted on a bearing.

Do you think digital compasses are allowed? That will be interesting...

I've got a compass on my GPS (though on a page I usually keep disabled to conserve battery life). A good racing compass will respond a lot faster than the one in the GPS when you change direction so an experienced compass user is going to win out over the GPS on that one.

Do you think digital compasses are allowed? That will be interesting...

Why not. The point of a compass is to orient the map or shoot an azimuth (as I hear they do in Tom Carr's neck of the woods :-)). The technology seems irrelevant.

Does a digital compass provide an advantage over a magnetic one? I'll admit to my ignorance in these matters. Can you shoot an azimuth with a digital compass? Can you rotate the bezel?

Azimuths are out of season right now, Randy. ;-)

In the Green sprint, I couldn't convince RouteGadget that I had visited control #2 (the blue line seemed always to emanate from #1). Is there a trick?

I have a couple of those Suunto watches with digital compasses. Can't say I'd want to use one to orienteer, but I may be missing something.

Clearly the rule already allows the carrying of a GPS as long as you
don't use it during the race, and also clearly hundreds of orienteers around the world are already doing so. Its also clear that the GPS has a major role to play in that much favoured aspect of our sport the post-race discussion and analysis.

No elite orienteer would gain any advantage from carrying a GPS, because they can read the map and estimate altitude, direction and distance far quicker than referring to one.

At lower levels of competence there may be some situations where a GPS could help, say, distance measurement; not that that is necessarily any use if you don't know where you were to start with. The potential compass use of a GPS is ridiculous - that's what compasses are for.

Its perfectly open to the nit-pickers to seek to ban GPS; all that would do is rob post mortem discussions of a factual basis; devalue the training aspects of wearing one in competition and close off one avenue for future sponsorship. It would have no effect on the fairness of the competition.

dness, I think the blue line was pointing to #1. You didn't click close enought #1, that's why #2 visit didn't register either.

As I have mentioned before, one way to cheat with gps if an early starter runs with it and saves each control as waypoint. A late starter gets the same unit and uses map view with waypoints to navigate if needed.

An other way to cheat with gps is use one of these online tracking tools, for example cell phone with gps. A runner with early start time runs with it, maybe presses a button at each control. Late starters overlay it online on old map and figure out route choices beforehands, saves controls/waypoints to an other gps unit and uses it for navigation.

But it is much more effective to simply make short cut over a forbidden area .

GPS can also be used against cheating. For example black box for all competitors, all or just some of them has gps inside. DQ if forbidden are is crossed (and signal quality was good enough). Biggest issue this seems to be in MTB-O. Usually you must stay on mapped trails (for erosion), so can win a lot by making short cuts.

If I remember right, there was big discussion some years ago on MTB-O WOC race. One competitor (winner) had about one minute faster split than anybody else on a short leg. There was forbidden industrial area you should go around left or right, but gate was open so you could just drive though - and nobody was watching. Other competitors said you need a motorcycle to go make that split, some calculated something like 50-60 km/h was needed with sharp turns and uphills and all.

But difficult to say what is the truth. It's sad if someone wins WOC race by cheating, but it's also sad if a fair competitor gets accused for cheating without a proof.

I believe it was not this case, but we can use this as an example here:

http://www.orienteering.sk/mtbo2005/results/result...
http://homepage3.nifty.com/forestrun/2005MTB_WOC_m...

Leg #5. I am not saying the winner cheated here, this is just an example. It's sad if one wins WOC by making one brilliant route choice no-one else noticed - and also executes it perfectly. And afterwards gets suspected for cheating, no proof either way, gets title but other competitors does not value the win as much as they should.

Off topic of course. I was just trying to say we already trust competitors does not cheat. Carrying a gps device and trusting it is not used for navigation isn't a big issue. It we don't trust competitors and want do something about it, banning gps devices isn't something to start with. One might say it's the opposite. Using them more would be much better idea.

one way to cheat with gps [...] runner with early start time runs with it, maybe presses a button at each control. Late starters overlay it online on old map and figure out route choices beforehands

One way to cheat without GPS is for a runner with an early start time to run to the parking area and let a late starter take a photograph of the map, which he can then peruse for an hour or two in order to work out the route choices.

Yeah, we should totally keep people from carrying GPS, and Boston and NY should shut down all public transportation during the marathons.

In normal orienteering I don't think you will have any advantage of a gps. I have a forerunner 305 and I wouldn't trust it on short legs in normal forest, it's not precise enough to use in forest. But one place it is really usable I think will be on O-ringen next year when one of the stages are on the treeless mountain and some legs will probably be like 2-4km, then I think it could be usable. Both because the signal will be better and also because it is very difficult to orienter there.

"Technically, it's apparently a rules violation to wear a heart-rate monitor in competition (at least, that was the ruling of the meet officials at a WOC 20 years ago or so)"

I don't really understand what that's all about, except the Polar S625X has an altimeter, that could come in extremely handy when you're lost on a hillside. Luckily it is possible to set the display to only display time information and not the altitude while still recording the altitude for later.

In 1972, there was an official accusation made from Moscow that Bobby Fisher was receiving assistance from a computer. The chess world (including the soviet delegation) howled with laughter. A little over 20 years later Kasparov became the first world champion to lose to a computer. Standard PC programs can now beat all but the top 1% of players. Just because GPS is not an issue now doesn't mean it won't be. The technology to do some very fine orienteering via GPS already exists (see cruise missle guidance systems), it's just not readily available. A heads-up display on glasses pointing exactly which way to run is not science fiction; it's here. I'm not sure what the solution is, but think that humans have the market cornered on navigaiton is a bit naive. Computers can do it better and pretty soon that functionality will be available on a wristwatch.

I'm not sure what the solution is, [...] Computers can do it better and pretty soon that functionality will be available on a wristwatch.>

I'm not sure what the problem is. Use of such technology is already explicity prohibited by the rules. OTOH, I imagine you could carry around some EPO on the course, and not be disqualified. I'm not convinced the enforcement problem with the use of navigation technology is any different than other enforcement problems.

It seems the solution here, to the extent that there is a problem, is for some governing body to publish a list of approved makes and models of navigation devices that may be carried, (assuming we're mostly on board with the construction that the key word is "use"), and there could be an extra official to frisk runners at the start :). (Sir, would you please report to the GPS tent :-))

(I guess the next argument in the arms race is devices that are so small as to not be detectable. Again, this seems the same as the doping problem, and I imagine similar to most other problems where advancements in technology lead to advancements in the ways to cheat).

Well, that's alot of words that didn't say all that much :)

We might expect the development of forms of orienteering in which use of navigation devices are explicitly permitted - as well as traditional forms in which they are not allowed.

I was surprised to discover that use of cycle computers is already allowed in the IOF MTBO rules (but specifically excluding satellite-based systems).

http://www.orienteering.org/i3/index.php?/iof2006/...

Computers can do it better or Computer says No! You are right, I'm sure Bill Gates is working on an orienteering update to Windows right now. Shouldn't be too long to wait, and then we can give up going bush because there'll be no point.

Remember that the interesting challenge is route choice. Although in fast, open terrain navigation may be an easy computational challenge, it's not so easy in more complex stuff, even after you figure out how to get the map into your computer while you're in the woods. Cruise missles have it comparatively easy, since they don't have to take the green into account.

11/08:
Sprint 33/265
Day 1 47/523
Day 2 (W-Br) 11/163
Day 2 (G-Bl) 35/336

11/11:
Sprint 52/265
Day 1 79/523
Day 2 (W-Br) 23/163
Day 2 (G-Bl) 66/336

Only the Day 2 G-Bl are at ~20%. Can we get the others over the 20% mark?

After watching this discussion about the use of Garmin Forerunner (GPS) devices rattle around for a few days, I think I've come to a reasonable conclusion--both for myself and to implement with the entire USMA team.

In return for providing our data downloads, we were able to purchase Garmin 305's for all members (30+) of the USMA orienteering team, which as JJ mentioned, we have not been using at A-meets because of concerns about violating USOF rules and the potential for that to become an issue with the strict Academy Honor Code.

As Randy pointed out, orienteering is full of opportunities to cheat: following, taking controls out of order, late starters looking at race maps or getting a race-briefing from an early finisher, and so on. The correct ethical/sportsman-like decision must be made by the competitor:
-go to controls in order (if you find point 8 before 7 with a manual punchcard, you still go to 7, then back to 8, then to 9...)
-don't follow without navigating (probably the least black/white area of orienteering--when two orienteers of near-equal abilities meet in the forest, it can be difficult to separate again. In my younger days, I used to purposefully take the "second-best" route choice, just to make sure I wasn't "following," although in more recent years, I am more attuned to what is an acceptable level of personal navigation if I manage to "latch onto" someone faster/better going by me on a course)
-don't use outside tools during the race which would give you an advantage (altimeter in certain terrain, GPS to relocate, etc.)

We are going to start requiring our athletes to wear their Garmins during competition with the following caveats:
1. Default data screen will not contain the "distance" of the current lap. This data field (e.g: 245m from last control), given our general level of orienteering experience/ability, is the information with the most potential for abuse. This is a pretty helpful bit of information if you have lost contact with the map or neglected to pace count, etc., and it ought not to be referenced by an athlete during a race.
2. The map "tracks" should not be consulted during a race, although from my personal experience, this would not be very useful, unless you were trying to find your way back to someplace you'd already been (e.g. start or the central control on a butterfly loop).
3. Acceptable data to have displayed during the race seems to be total time, lap time, and heart rate--items which the majority of competitors have or could have available.
4. The one grey area I still see might be the "instantaneous pace" feature (which tells you that you are currently running a 4:22/km)...I've found this data field particularly useful in training, as it reminds me when I am at or below what I consider my race pace. Although, one could argue that a reasonable approximation to this is available to any orienteer now: mentally multiply your time to go 100m (by pace count) by 10...although no one bothers to do that during a race (that I know of), so that would imply that it isn't very useful info for anyone except an out-of-shape runner like me during practice.
5. I don't think we should go so far as to completely tape-over the screen and carry a second watch or anything extreme like that--if someone wanted to cheat, a piece of tape could easily be removed/replaced, which comes full circle to Randy: it is ultimately up to the athlete to do what they know is right.

Although I agree with the comments above (e.g. Eoin) that an elite orienteer can not gain an advantage using the current technology, I think we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that sometime in the foreseeable future, the technology is going to advance in accuracy, size, ability to hold maps, etc. to the point where the potential pay-off to cheating will be such that someone will turn to it for better results, just like so many elite cyclists fall for the lure of performance-enhancing drugs. I'm off topic now, and I'll stop.

On the other hand, in the US at least, it would appear that very few orienteers have fallen for the lure of performance-enhancing drugs. That may, however, just be an indication that the sport is still too small here to have a payoff that would make these sorts of things worthwhile.

Well said cmpbllj. I have deliberately left my FR at home for A-meets/US Champs, specifically because of the distance for the current lap info. I have been of the position that use of a gps at these events should be banned because of this capability. I do use mine for local meets and find the subsequent route enlightening. I'm sure the traces from Virginia would not be so pleasant or inspirational, but would be helpful for the future. I think your position captures the spirit of our sport and allows for this tool. My position will change accordingly.

Going back to your second post Valerie. i'm sure you have already had someone confirm it worked, but just posted my Day 2 orange and it seams to work just fine! i thanks for doing all this work to get all the maps and everything on RouteGadget, It really is a great tool! Will read the rest of this interesting conversation when i have more reading time.

Recognizing that advancing technology might make my question moot at some point, does anyone have ideas concerning what types of cheating currently escape the readouts and what types do not? Or, under what conditions would a competitor reveal cheating, or not, if he(she) made the resulting download, or other data, public?