Discussion: If Orienteering were invented today...

Check out Spike's Blog.

http://okansas.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-maps-woul...

"What if orienteering were invented today?" is exactly the question
that Ian Renfrew and I asked when when we came up
with GHO's adventure run format (and now Salomon Adv. Run Series)

-new name (Adventure Running)
-teams (to increase participation)
-longer courses
-mass starts
-less complicated maps (but still more detailed than what Spike suggests)

http://www.adventurerunning.ca

...and this from Spike's blog entry on January 31st.
(I am certain he is right and what is best for elite development and participation in North America. Races like the Billygoat IMHO are still the most fun (and possibly most competitive).

Spike wrote:

I've no idea how serious this is (or even if it is serious)...from Alternativet (rough translation):

The Scandinavian countries have discussed the idea of pushing the IOF for a mass start at the WOC. The new discipline would be seen at the 2010 WOC in Trondheim. Now it is up to the national governing bodies to decide whether or not to support the idea. If so, it would then go to the IOF.

Sometimes I wonder what orienteering would be like if it was invented from scratch right now (i.e. with no tradition or history). If it was invented now, I think there'd be a good chance that mass start would be the normal form of the sport (that's not to say a mass start is a good idea).

And soon we would find out all the following and running log legs without having to navigate much is actually pretty boring. And navigating with bad maps and misplaced controls is not fair and too much based on luck. And we would start thinking navigating on your one with a decent map would be much more fun - and fair. So we would start doing better and more detailed maps and make shorter legs because maps are smaller - it's such a big job to make big custom maps. And after couple of decades we would be using some sort of detailed custom maps.

If Orienteering were invented today... it would be called geocaching... Nah?

Well I'm pretty sure orienteering at the beginning was fairly like you describe: long course with a few controls on rough maps.

And I'm pretty sure what Jagge describes would soon happen, with perhaps a fork between a federation for adventure running and another for "speed adventure" (because they will need a new name, more appealing but yet 'orienteering' will be unknown)

If you have an objective to grow the sport, mass start is the way to go in my opinion....I also assume some like it as a smaller, niche sport with an emphasis on navigation but I would prefer mass starts and a change to the name Adventure Running....it would be more of an off shoot from trail running than it is now and would be a subset of the running community.....

I see events like the Living Farms 7 mile run that attracts thousands to a town in Iowa to run a trail run with off track portions in bad weather and people LOVE it and I wonder why these same people would not consider O'ing or perhaps dont even know about it....

Mass starts, sprints, shorter courses, misplaced controls (i.e. MicrO) - yes, there are many ways to make orienteering more interesting or at least different from the old ways.

But there seems to be a massive difference in culture (and age?) when it comes to what people in various countries think is the best form of orienteering.

The mass start format in orienteering is not always popular in the 'traditional' - mainly Scandinavian - countries, particularly not among 'old-timers' and the same really goes for XC skiing. Very much of the change has been forced by new members of the O (and XC-ski) community - whether this change is good or bad and will be part of our future sport, who knows?

Development and the adaptation to new ways of doing things will always be part of our lives - so whatever the outcome will be of the ongoing changes of our sport it´s hopefully something we all still think will be worthwhile doing.

PS. In this matter I may be one of the 'old-timers'. I don´t mind trying new ideas every now and then, but from there to totally changing the sport I´ve been doing for so long.... not really my wish.

My thoughts are very similar to Jagge's.

And I really don't understand the fascination with teams. I'm having trouble thinking of any other endurance sport besides adventure racing where there is such a strong emphasis on the "social" interaction of team members. Having team members with different technical skills, talents and expertise is important in adventure racing. But other endurance sports don't have the wide variety of skill requirements. (Bike racing has some similarities in that different members of the team have different strengths and niches. But at the end of the day, for most events, every rider's result is their own).

I've run a few shorter ROGAINEs with a partner and it was indeed fun. But most of the time (by far), I'd rather just being doing the activity on my own -- both for the personal satisfaction and the logistical simplicity.

Thus, IMO, the desirability of teams stems more from adventure racers crossing over to orienteering rather than anything intrinsically more fun by orienteering on a team. Maybe I'm just anti-social.

scandi relays are mass start. they seem popular :)

And I think both the Vasa and the Birkie have been mass starts for a while too, although they also sound a bit more interesting than what a 50km Olympic nordic race is turning into.

The key is the clubs that embrace a variety of styles of events should be successful. I don't think anyone wants only mass start events, but the addition of sprint events has been a boon to our sport and I see no reason why the odd long, mass start, Adventure Run shouldn't be nothing but a positive for clubs.

Well I'm pretty sure orienteering at the beginning was fairly like you describe: long course with a few controls on rough maps.

Exactly. I saw an exhibit of early (1940's) Swedish orienteering at an O-Ringen a few years ago. Orienteering used to be more of a mountain marathon: Controls were placed at the top of 8-10 peaks, and hardy Swedes would see who could run to all the tops, in any order, by any route, and get back to the Finish in the valley below.

Control flags were the size of bed-sheets, plainly visible from miles away. Obviously you didn't have to be a careful navigator to find the controls.

Tomwcarr, I'm with you 100%. The team requirement is the one thing that kills my interest in Rogaines and GHO's Adventure Runs. I like doing my own thing. I don't want the aggravation of having to chat or negotiate with a teammate. I get enough of that at work. ;-)

If it can be done safely I think offering solo and 2 person teams and having different categories for mass start events would be the way to go....teams allow someone to get their feet wet with a navigator and see what it is all about before deciding if they want to go it alone....some will, some will not.....but it increases participation....

I would be interested in the opportunity to run more mass start events than is currently offered....I enjoy O'ing with intervals starts and would always do that but I would like more options at events.....

scandi relays are team events too. they seem popular :)

I have been monitoring BAOC attendance for the past 15 years or so and have found that our Mass Start and Team Events almost always draw fewer participants than the normal interval start course events. They are always fun, but I am not sure that holding more of these mass start events is this is the way to increase participation.

Maybe mass naked team starts?

I totally think there would be more mass-start races if orienteering were invented today. Some of the most fun races I've done are mass starts (farstas, relays, goats, etc.). I also think running mass starts is extremely good training - it really clarifies how fast it is possible to run while orienteering.

Yes, of course scandi relays are team events and mass starts at the same time - and they are certainly popular and an important part of our sport.
Basically it´s the individual mass starts that people object strongly about - to take one recent issue there´s a constant debate whether the Swedish Night O Champs should be mass start or individual. This year will be a compromise with runners starting in pairs on forked loops so it´s a half victory for 'traditionalists'.
I´m not totally opposed to new ideas either - even MicrO can be fun, I suppose - but I don´t want to totally lose the original sport that has been a part of my life for so many years.

The trend to more complexity in maps continues with Micr-O and Orient-Show still in the early stage of evolution. And the sport continues to divide between the long and simpler and short and complex. Orienteering is not one market so let a thousand flowers bloom. But watch out for the Maos who will then chop them down.

It is strange that some of the ideas to incorporate in orienteering if it were to be invented today were one's that were part of orienteering when it was 'invented' a hundred years ago - simpler maps, longer courses, teams. Have we over-refined the sport?

If there were one suggestion I would like to see tried it would be the return of the 'chase start' for the last day of multi-stage events. Lets say you were having a sprint middle and classic distance races. One's start time for the classic would be based on cumulative times in the other two events, best time on the course starting at :00

If philosophy were invented today, it would probably have something like post-structuralism in it somewhere and have little to do with ethics or virtue, or all that other stuff the Greeks cared about. If it did, practitioners would quickly move towards the abstruse and the masses would think that philosophers were quacks. Other academic disciplines have gone this way--economics anyone?

I think this is a fascinating topic, and would love to discuss it at length, but anyway...

Things that are derived from formulations and complexity tend to reward practioners who can master the complexity and the rules and use them to their benefit. There may be some law of nature we can formulate to describe this... Anyway, simplicity is not an equilibrium in sports like orienteering. To the extent that it exists, it is a moment along a continuum towards obscurity.

wilderness orienteering will always be less popular in the US than say street scramble type events

As the purveyor of Street Scramble® urban orienteering events, I'm pleased to learn that they will always be at least as popular as forest events! :-) Actually, I think traditional orienteering has great potential if only it were aggressively marketed.

I like mass start events, and I'd love to see more of them, including in international elite competition. I agree, however, that these events shouldn't replace interval started events.

Geoman's attendance observations at BAOC events are not surprising. BAOC has built a following based on the standard B event format that predominates in its schedule. In order for mass start and team events to reach similar attendance levels, there would have to be enough of them and they would have to be well enough publicized that they could develop a following, too. There is a potential following for such events out there, but they don't necessarily find out about them.

In order to grow the sport, we need to work consistently to promote it to new people. Combining such an effort with a varied menu of events and formats will result in a thriving sport.

Eric, is there any way you could work with USOF's Marketing VP to put some of your ideas to work?

Things like Street scramble and city park/campus sprints seem much easier for people outside the sport to get into, with a smaller cost in time and effort for those trying the events. It doesn't help for the regular events to be held a couple of hours drive away.

In Oz the "Street Scramble" is called Street Orienteering (or Pseud-O to its detractors) and has been going for quite a few years. As a feeder for forest orienteering it hasn't been all that good, despite very impressive attendances. It is a different market.

My 13 year old son completed his 3rd orienteering meet. When his friends ask him what he did over the weekend, he says "orienteering" and they respond "huh?". He then says "its' like adventure racing" and they respond "cool!" Perhaps a name change would make orienteering more marketable, at least in the U.S.

Hmm apon reading the title of the thread i thought of something very differnt.
I imagined orienteering with gps at high speed in/on a vehical such as a motor bike. Much more modern than maps and running ;)
I personally would go with the mass start idea although this would develope a sport with runners doing well by following top navigators. Add a team aspect and you get AR so i dont like that idea.
I run an orienteering club at my university and to get the numbers we had to market ourselves as the orienteering and adventure racing club, who do cycling and paddeling and .....
Ppl are more intersted in other things which is a pity as orienteering is my passion.

forking balances out mass/group start as far as runner/navigator favoring. Which events have group starts instead of individ or mass? There's probably some fun team O-game we could make other than just relay, but i cant think of one now...