Discussion: Water on Courses

I wish to continue the discussion about water on courses started by leepback in the Easter stuff up thread.

What do attackpointers think of the idea of getting rid of water in courses altoghter (drink controls) with inidividuals responsible for their own hydration (and rubbish clean up for that matter) while competeting at an orienteering event?

This would conform with the 'compete at your own risk' policy we currently have and have the added benfit of reducing the risk of meningiccocal and spread of other nasties.

I like your idea. I always take my own CamelBak -- that way I have water when I want it throughout the course, without taking time to stop and pour a cup at the water controls.

But, I'm a solidly "recreational" orienteer. I bet the elites wouldn't want to be burdened by a hydration pack.

I'm an M60, so i'm seldom out for more than 60 minutes. I'd prefer to have the option of water available, though I seldom use it, and almost never in a major competition.

There is no way I am ever going to carry water - I just cannot run and concentrate on orienteering if there is something around my waist or on my back.

I don't mind if the rule changes to not providing water on courses, but it better not insist that I must carry water when I can be well hydrated before I start and easily last the distance of my course without water.

I don't have a problem with organizers leaving water off the course at local or low-key meets, especially if it's not hot. However, if there's no water I'd like to see ample warning, preferably before I get to the meet site...

That said, in some places (like here in the desert) I think it's a really good idea to put water out on the course no matter what. Having a water stop in the middle of a course could make a really big difference to someone who's not in great shape and finishes their 1/2 liter bottle by the second control.

I'm just finalising (and printing) my event for Sunday and guess what I forgot even after talking about it! What a dumbass! Lucky it looks like there's a road I can access one of the logical sites to use as a drinks control.

After a few dehydration issues, I now carry my own water (CamelBak) in the warmer months and on longer courses. I do appreciate being able to drink at will instead of waiting to hit the water control. However, wearing a pack can be bulky and restrictive when running. I can see why many people would not want to do it. I do use the water stops in the colder months or on shorter courses when I don't feel as much need to drink and don't carry my own water.

There are some great hydration packs that shouldn't slow down either elite or recreational orienteers. It's much faster and more effective to drink small amounts at regular intervals, and many people prefer a particular sports drink. Except in 24-hr rogaines, I've never used water that has been put out on the course.

Having said that, Cristina's point is well-taken. Perhaps the standard should be that water is put out for long courses when the temperature is over 30C - or something like that.

In one adventure racing series around here, the rule always was that if you saw any race-related litter on the ground (e.g. a gel wrapper), you needed to pick it up in order to keep the landowners happy. And if someone reported that you had dropped litter, you would get a 15-minute penalty. Maybe orienteering would benefit from similar rules. I've cleaned up some disgusting trash dumps after O races.

We've had good luck getting orienteers to use provided trash containers by making them easy to use. We use a plastic milk crate to carry water into the forest (4 or 6 gallon size, that would be comparable to 16 - 24 litres). We then take out the water and cups and line the crate with a garbage bag (dustbin liner for you Brits). Because there's an open container into which the competitor can just drop a cup (as opposed to wasting a second or three fumbling with a bag on the ground or dangling from a branch), we've found that almost all cups & gel paks, etc get tossed in the bag. Cleanup is easy, just seal the bag, stomp it down, set any unopened jugs (and empty ones for recycling) on top and carry it out.

Three personal pet peeves:

1. large containers with taps. Some clubs like to use these 2.5 gallon jugs (10 litre) with a tap on them. They are too heavy to pick up and pour into a cup that you can't set down on uneven ground, and the taps take forever to dispense water. I really fume at the time wasted. I avoid drinking from these unless I'm really desparate. They are ok for pouring (but still slow) if they are on a table, but not on the ground.

2. jugs tied together. I've seen this done, apparently to keep jugs from blowing away, and it makes it easy for the person picking them up to carry them out. Fine, but loosen the rope or make it long enough that the competitor can quickly pick up an individual jug to pour it. Sometimes they are so tightly tied that you are trying to lift up 5 or 6 jugs at once, and you end up spilling more water than you get in a cup. (Tucson club, please take note!)

3. re-used milk, juice or soda jugs. Please, use jugs that have only been used for water, preferably new. Here is a challenge. Wash an old milk jug as thoroughly as you can. Wash it again. Let it dry. Cut it open. You WILL find visible milk residue (particularly in the handle). I know you're trying to be environmentally conscious, but you simply can't adequately clean old jugs without professional sanitizing equipment.

Oh, and add number 4... jerks who drink directly from the jug.

I am in favor of keeping the water. I do not drink much on shorter courses but like to know that it is available if I want it. On longer courses I always want it but usually not until the 2nd half. I don't want to have to carry water thru the first 1/2 just in case I need it near the end. I especially do not want to have to make pre-race decisions about whether or how much drink to carry.
On goats or long events I often carry water/erg to supplement the on course supply so I can drink constantly, but there are usually aid stations where I can take off or put on my carrier so I only have it for part of the course, or swap out empty bottles for full ones. Of course, an aid station is just a big water control. If the drinks controls go away, so will the aid stations and I will be back to the original problem of deciding how much water to carry or being unable to carry as much as I will need.

Mike, I think your # 2 (tying bottles together) is intended to prevent # 4 (jerks drinking directly from the bottle). I suspect they don't need to be tied so tightly that it requires moving additional bottles to get a drink.

I generally carry my own water, because I seem to need it earlier than the planned stop (I know, better training...), and I'm slow enough that I don't see that carrying it slows me down any more. In fact I can save time at water stops by drinking on the move.

There was a West Point A-meet a few years ago where the weather was remarkably warm on Day 1 after a cold period, and there was not enough water at some controls (e.g. 3 gallons at a control shared by 4 or more advanced courses, some 60-70 people!) -- they did better the next day after folks complained.

I still think water stops should be provided at A meets (sometimes I need to refill my bottle!), at least during the warmer months. At local meets you shouldn't expect water except at the start/finish; it's extremely nice of clubs if they do provide water at controls.

According to US rules as now stated, I also think water needs to be at control points and not at some arbitrary road crossing (I think this was discussed last fall).

Semi-related discussion on hydration.

According to US rules as now stated, I also think water needs to be at control points and not at some arbitrary road crossing...

I rarely drink from water stops on course but I've frequently used the water stops to confirm my location when mapped.

There was a West Point A-meet a few years ago where the weather was remarkably warm on Day 1 after a cold period, and there was not enough water at some controls (e.g. 3 gallons at a control shared by 4 or more advanced courses, some 60-70 people!) -- they did better the next day after folks complained

I'm pretty sure this may be the same event that caused me to start carrying my own water... the first water stop was *not there at all* (control was, water wasn't) and the second one had no water left when I got there.

Have had too many experiences like the above, or having to base route choices on where the little cups on the map were (though like Boyle I've also used those little cups for relocating, attack points etc) or no water at all with no prior warning. So last year I finally got myself a small camelback (one of the waistband models rather than a full pack), and after a short "getting used to" period, when I'd wear it on any decent length run, I'll now wear it for any race middle or longer. Even when water is provided, I'm no longer relying on organisers to get amounts or locations right and as already mentioned nicer to have little sips of water all the way round rather than one or two big gulps at once. Only catch (literally) is with it I can't squeeze through all the fences that I can without.

However as it took a long time and some special price circumstances (combination of a gift voucher and a closing down sale made it less than half price) to make this purchase, I wouldn't want to see organisers assuming everyone's so well prepared, so not providing water. If there are special circumstances which make providing water impossible it should be announced well in advance - to the point people can decide whether to enter or not.

BTW, just to be a pedantic biologist, the brandname camelbak isn't that appropriate for something designed to carry liquid water rather than fat reserves...

On many maps it shouldn't be difficult to locate several controls of appropriate difficulty a short distance (up to 200m) from a road or 4wd track. A water control can then be located on the road which all these courses go to. There's less than 200m of dead running, fewer water controls, and who knows, the road may give the course planner a better starting point for the next legs.

Of course, some maps don't have any roads, but many in Australia (such as those used at Easter) have paddocks that can be driven across. There were even stiles put out for some fence crossings - why weren't these used as water controls?

My 'favourite' water experience was a Texas JROTC-organised event where they didn't wash the disinfectant out of the water coolers before filling them up with water and putting them out. Gotta love that burning feeling as the bleach goes down...

I agree simmo, the water at Easter didn't seem that well thought out. I remember on Day 3 we had to wait until Control 11 for a water drop..the OA rules state every 20 mins. Me personally I have been using a hydration pack since Easter 2007 and now don't feel right without it. The grubby fingers dipped into packets of plastic cups (invariably opened at the 'mouth' end) just don't do it for me anymore.

The open barrell idea they use in the US seems to invite disease, much like pre-water reticulation Victorian London.

Anyway, it looks as though we are stuck with water on courses for the short to medium. Thankyou all for your comments.

At MNOC we look at providing water on courses as yet another unnecessary and wasteful drain on precious volunteer resources and club funds. Added to that is the litter problem and waste of water (for fairness you have to make sure there is lots of extra water which then gets poured out on the ground rather than transported back)


The full spectrum of options of hydration systems (both the water carrier - camelback or whatever on the back or waist , what you can put in them (plain water, gatorade or whatever you fancy) , and when you drink (lots of little gulps or big gulps (rather than just at water stops)) are so numerous that it seems far better for all the safety and health of all concerned to leave it up to the competitor to make his/her choices. The options with cups and water seem very limited in comparison and maybe undesirable (is that jug / cup sanitary or am I better going with the other than that looks untouched/cleaner?)

We take the money that we were spending on water and cups and we are using it to partially fund purchase of camelbacks that we hand out in random prize drawings for those who volunteer at MNOC events . We've handed out about 10 in the last 2 years. People love them and volunteer even more!



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My only comment about water on courses is this: If your intent is to prepare competitors for world-class events, you should try to replicate the conditions at world-class events. I don't have any problem with barebones events or with normal events that publicize their policy for limited water on the course, but I do have a problem with a championships or team selection event that does the same.

i've worn a 2-liter platypus (similar to camelbak) for years, since running a course where NO water was provided. (these were the days when i could easily take 2-1/2 hrs or more for a red course). i found it was easy to get used to, get to drink whenever i want, how much i want, & never worry about sanitation. i also freeze the bladder about 1/3 full the night before, so i get chilled water all thru the run.

Okay, I know I'm old school and cranky, but I really don't like the idea of no water on the course (it's fine for local events, unless it's really hot). I have several water-carrying systems, and I've used Camelbaks for the few rogaines I've done, but for anything shorter/faster, I don't want to be weighed down with it. My back gets hot & sweaty, the tubes & belts can get caught on things, and going through a barbed-wire fence or thick thorny area is hard enough with just my body.
I don't mind if the organizers make it easy on themselves and put water at a road or on a trail (as long as it's marked on the map, and preferably mentioned in the meet notes). I also know, from an organizer's perspective, what a pain it is to put out and retrieve the water, having done it many times. And agreed, it's wasteful when you end up pouring out the leftover water. I know some people pour out water from previously unopened jugs, which I would avoid doing, so the waste can vary depending on who's picking it up.
At any rate, I would hate to see the rules change to say that each person is responsible for their own water. I didn't start from an adventure racing background and I am spoiled.

I agree with Peggy's above ("I don't mind...") 100% and am thinking water stops should always be at convenient, easily accessible (for organizers) places accurately marked on the map, even if that means a competitor may have to deviate from some other route choice. Be done with carting water to distant locales etc whenever possible - it's generally a waste of time/energy &water --- with possibility of leaving plastic trash in woods...

Having water is a necessity for orienteering. Having the organizers provide it is a luxury. Like many aspects of putting on a good meet it requires energy and money. Taking away the "responsibility" to provide water on the course does not make an organizers job easier because if a competitor gets dehydrated on the course it's still a problem for the organizers whether they put out water controls or not. The minimal cost of supplying water is well worth the benefits of keeping the racers happy and healthy. I've also never heard of a case in which someone became sick from drinking from a common water control ( though the bleach story is a bit unsettling).

I've also never heard of a case in which someone became sick from drinking from a common water control

Wasn't event water one of the suspects in the 2007 WOC outbreak?

Dehydration is a serious concern for longer courses. So having a sufficient water supply is a safety issue. It is a real pain for the meet officials to carry water to remote locations, but a necessary and basic task. The control pickup crew should be assigned to pick up the trash.

And you are okay with handing over responsibility for your personal safety to another person?

I'd rather be self-sufficient, than a victim.

If everyone only used their allotted 8 oz (or whatever the USOF spec is) that would be fine . Too often those who start late arrive at water controls to find at best a mess of cups and half used jugs, and at worst no water left due to lack of self control by previous competitors. This is an issue of fairness that may be best solved by putting the onus back on the runner for hydration needs.

The 8 oz is the minimum per competitor that course organizers need to plan for. I don't think that's always taken into account. Self-control, however, is always good, especially regarding not drinking directly from jugs (I've seen it done).

The rule also states that on hot days additional water may be placed at locations that are not controls.

Here's the applicable rule from the USOF Rules of Competition (available in Robin S.'s Virtual Binder):

29.9 On each course refreshments consisting of at least potable water shall be provided at least every 2.5 km. Refreshments shall be provided at the start and finish and at appropriate control flags and indicated on the description sheets as such. There shall be enough water for each competitor to have .25 liters (8 oz.) or more at each refreshment stop. In the event of hot weather additional refreshment locations are recommended. These additional locations need not be at control locations but must be indicated on the map. Water must be offered in a sanitary manner such that it is not practical for competitors to drink from ?community drinking jugs?.