Discussion: Cheating with Mobile (cell) phones on course.

There seems to have been some previous discussion regarding the use of mobile phones as a safety device while training in the forest or on less frequented trails but I have not seen any discussion related to carrying them while on an actual orienteering course. (If there is then please provide the link)

I am involved in the organisation of a regional event that is to take place this weekend. It is relatively close to civilisation and subsequently has mobile phone coverage. I intended to put the following paragraph in the informational notes under the "Personal Safety" heading.

Mobile Phones
We believe that there is coverage on the map so you could carry your mobile with you to use in a case of emergency. Finish tent contact number is XXXXXXX

The event controller made me take it out citing the fact that people could cheat by using their phone, a situation that I hadn?t even considered. I didn't argue, the controller being mightier than the organiser. Since then I've begun to think about how one might cheat and what advantages one might gain. What could they do with their phone.

Modern phones may have a GPS but I still don't see how a GPS can help at orienteering especially since our maps don't have grid references. (They could be used at rogaining and other navigational sports). Besides, anybody that uses one would be much slower than any half decent orienteer that just used his or her own navigational skills.

What else? Call back to somebody that has finished and ask which is the best route choice on a certain leg? Yes that's a possible advantage.

Find out a rivals or the current winning time? Yes but is it worth the loss of concentration?

Obviously there are many persons of dubious character lurking on this discussion board that may have much more devious or inventive minds than myself so I will ask you to provide ways of cheating at orienteering using a mobile phone and if these possibilities outweigh the obvious safety advantages that mobiles may provide.

Perhaps we could allow the carrying of them but once seen to utilise it you become "unofficial", unless you were helping somebody in distress. (not good for those hopeless cases that must answer their mobiles regardless of where or what the situation is)

Of course the big question regarding safety is that if somebody is so lost that they cannot navigate back to the finish/assembly, could they direct searchers to themselves?

Perhaps some could try to regroup themselves in the forest and proceed as a running pack. A slight improvment on the "wait me at the first control and let's run together". But I find it dubious.

Anyway, it reminds of this story in O Today about mobile o. Two people, each with a phone, one with the map who must stay in place, the other running. The first must guide the second only through the phone (and the second provides feedback the same way). It seemed pretty tough but pretty fun too. Has anyone tried it?

"Modern phones may have a GPS but I still don't see how a GPS can help at orienteering especially since our maps don't have grid references."

You could use a ruler to measure the coordinates of the controls on the map with respect to the corner of the map or a grid corner. Then you'd just need to visit two or three points near the start area with your GPS, so that for those points you have both GPS-coordinates and map coordinates. Using these, you can perform a similarity transformation to find the GPS-coordinates of all other points and off you go...

Honestly, I've never tried this, but it's possible.

How is that faster than reading the map? To "cheat" you have to gain an advantage.

You can do all the calculations before the start. Then you just follow the arrow on the GPS-device from one point to another, if your device is capable of showing arrows to a series of waypoints, and if you've programmed the controls in before the start too. You don't need to think while you run and have virtually no chance of making serious navigational errors.

Sorry, no comprendre. How do you get the controls before you start?

simon - mobile O sounds a bit like the movie cliched plot where a passenger is talked into a safe landing over the radio after all the crew have become incapacitated for some reason. BTW there are no actual recorded acounts of this ever happening but a mythbusters episode gave it a go.

This form of the sport does sound like fun but also expensive unless I just navigate via txt msg to my wife's phone.

"Sorry, no comprendre. How do you get the controls before you start?"

In many smaller events you get the map before the start (at least here in Western Australia). If not, you'd have to do the calcs just after the start, which would take a few minutes I'd imagine, so obviously it would only be an advantage if you can make up for that time during the race. Maybe no advantage for the pros, but it could be an advantage to many other people.

It would only be an advantage to people who can't read a map

Yes, so a very fast runner who can't read a map could win an orienteering race.

By the way, I think letting people take a mobile phone on the course for safety reasons is fine for a regional event. Ban rulers instead! :)

Coming to think of it, scanners could be more useful for cheating, in combination with GPS. You've nowadays got portable scanners that are not much bigger than a pen and very light. You could, straight after the start, scan the map in a few seconds and with specialised image processing software automatically extract coordinates of controls. If you're able to load these into your GPS device automatically too, you could have your waypoints set up in no time.

Sten - sounds a bit complicated just to win at a regional event. Think you'd look a little suspicious doing your scanning etc at any big event and still reckon it's much quicker to just navigate.

Yes, leepback, you're right, it would look suspicious. It would take most of the fun out too. But since you were asking for persons of dubious character with devious minds, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

Yes, so a very fast runner who can't read a map could win an orienteering race (Using this system which involves gridding the map, extracting the co-ordinates of all the controls via a ruler or scanner, visiting several points near the start to calibrate the GPS, and loading the control co-ords into same).

Many top orienteers are capable of running at around 33-37.17 minutes for a road 10 km, some quicker (I ran 32.10 in my fond remembered hey day and I wasn't anywhere near the top either in running or O) so to win, a non-map reader - say the world record holder - would have to do all that in under 5-6 minutes to have a chance of winning over a 10km course.

I'm not taking terrain into account, but I don't think your world champion non map reader is going to run over terrain quicker than a top orienteer.

Another problem your fellow is going to have is that the straight line isn't always the fastest.

All in all I'd have to say its impossible within the bounds of practical reality; in fact its not even close.

One reason I'm seeking to debate this thoroughly is that we are too quick as orienteers to seek to ban new technology. If people want to bring mobile phones, GPSs, rulers, scanners, computers or whatever with them in the bush lets let them. None of that stuff will help a top level orienteer and if it helps someone from the lower ranks well that's good. We might even be able to get some sponsorship out of it.

I can't believe you even considered this in the first place. What a load of twaddle. Its this kind of b*llocks that we don't need anywhere near outdoor sport. I also can't believe you have a heading 'personal safety'.... omg what is this world coming to......

Sten - you do sound devious I'll grant you that and also inventive!

Eoin - I think we can rule out the GPS componant but what about it's simple use as a communications device.

BTW - I think I managed 52:00 in my only ever timed (maybe only ever run) 10 km.

I watched the beginning of the Yökuppi advertised in another thread last night. While watching Tuxi, the runner carrying GPS on a phone I suppose, seemingly make a big mistake going to the second control I started thinking that someone should call him and send him in the right direction. If it was planned he would just be wearing a earpiece like cyclists do today. I really don't see this happening in the near future but eventually when the technology is even better and there is big money on the line for the winner of the "Tour de O"...who knows.

We did mobile-O some years ago in an adventure race in Helsinki sponsored by Nokia. Our best orienteer guided us on a city course. Unfortunately the organisors, who needed us to use a particular model being advertised by the race, gave my team the wrong phone numbers for our new phones. After losing 15-20 minutes to work that out (which actually caused us to fall from 2nd place to way back in the pack), we tried to really listen to our instructions, making slow block by block progress while we watched the local teams sprint full-speed away since their guides just had to say "go to bus station, it is just behind the old terminal."

nails - with regard to "personal safety"

Do you ever organise events of any type? My guess is no. Not sure what it's like in the UK but here in Australia we rival the US as the greatest litigators on earth. Any evidence we can give that all competitors were pre-warned about possible injury etc may mean the difference to still having a club or indeed your own house if the club is not incorporated. Yes it's bollocks but that's the state of play over here.

With regard to the topic itself

I am trying to establish if there is any creditable reason why participants in the sport of orienteering should be barred from carrying phones. Why - because I feel they are a good safety item and could make a difference in an emergency situation.

What is your beef anyway? Do you not understand where we are coming from?

Eoin, I wasn't only talking about top orienteers, just generally indicating that GPS can, theoretically, be used to cheat by many if they are willing to.

With the scanner and properly developed additional hardware and software, you'd only need about 5 seconds to scan the map. Everything else can be automated and "calibrating" the GPS can be done on the run, so 5 seconds is all you'd lose. You could even program an algorithm that guides you around thick bush and along tracks where it is beneficial. A lot is possible and it has the potential to help even top-level orienteers, although probably at the expense of face value.

I agree with you though that we shouldn't be too quick to ban new technology.

Two runners, first one takes snapshot with phone's digital camera and sends it to the other person who gets the map well before start. And plans route choices before the race. The later runner - the cheater - does not have to run with a phone.

It is not too difficult to georeference and import an orienteering map on a mobile phone with GPS - or a mobile phone with external GPS. I have done some testing, and it works great in that the orienteering map on the mobile phone is always centered on my position, and shows where I am. I have made no attempt to include the controls as waypoints, but even to get your position on the map can be helpful when you start making mistakes. Doing this on-the-fly after you get your map with a scanner, would not be feasible I think.... In this case, I used 10-15 minutes to georeference the map accurately.

A small video demoing this (made for another purpose):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uB8xpFHuBqQ

The same could be done on a stand-alone GPS device instead of a mobile phone - of course - but then you would need to convert the orienteering map to proprietary vector formats of e.g. Garmin or Magellan.

With gps & phone: Two runners, first one pushes a button at each control, phone sends coordinates to the later runner's phone. He uses coordinates as waypoints to navigate from control to control.

First one also could take snapshot and send the map image to the later starter, so he could calibrate the race map before the start and use it to navigate during the race.

Hang on a second was the first post not about a regional event? I guess that mobile phones can and will be banned at Championships but to be honest who cares if somebody cheats at a regional event can't we just leave it up to people to compete fairly and leave it up to their own consciences if they don't?

There are already far too many things for event organisers to worry about please just keep all the extra nonsense to a minimum and let them just concentrate on creating good courses and an enjoyable environment for participants.

candyman,

I think you're right in your attitude to cheating but I don't think we are trying to create "extra nonsense" for organisers. Quite the contrary really. It's a shame that the same technology that might be helpful in a stressful situation, and I mean helpful for organisers, could also assist those looking for an unfair advantage (of which I reckon there are extremely few in our sport.)

Perhaps we could allow it at "minor" events but not at "champs".

I've been involved in 3 searches for missing competitors over the last 4 years and let me tell you they were all worrying and I wasn't even an organiser or even in one of the organising clubs, just an orienteer concerned about the welfare of another.

In all instances the missing person was OK but even being able to establish that via a simple phone call would take a lot of pressure of the poor organiser that was in the hot seat.

It might also mean that the police and helicopters weren't needed (as was the case in one instance) and the ensuing kerffufle that pissed off the landowner so much that that map is no longer availabe might never have eventuated

Jagge,

I think you have convinced me a phone could simply be used to cheat using a map photo.

bugga - Looks like it's going to remain off limits for champs but I reckon for our regionals we should allow it. If someone is lost I want to be able to find them and I think this outweighs the possibility of a few (if any) people actually cheating.

BTW at my two visits to O-ringen as far as I could tell nobody ever handed a map in (too hard logistically I suspect to hand back) so late starters had the opportunity to study the map prior to starting. Is it different for the elite classes? Isn't this a big event?

leepback I think I was agreeing with you, we shouldn't create lots of rules for basic events such as - you may not run with a mobile phone. I'd prefer that controllers worried more about whether a control site was fair or the map accurate than whether competitors should be able to carry mobile phones or gps etc.

candyman,

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page.

It's just a shame we can't harness this technology usefully.

Can't see a problem with a non-competitive event, like most events in WA (we call them 'Standard' - is that the same as your 'Regional Event'?). My guess is that most experienced people wouldn't bother to carry their phone - I certainly wouldn't as I wouldn't have anywhere to put it except a pocket where it would annoy the hell out of me.

At the WA Champs in 1988, 3 orienteers (one or two might be AP regulars!) combined to post a phenomenal time, beating the then top Aussie Rob Vincent by 20 minutes or so. I forget exactly how they did it, but basically the first starter took the last starter's control card, punched several controls (manual punching in those days), passed the card onto the second runner who punched some more, then he in turn passed the card to the 3rd guy whose name was on it. He then punched the remaining controls, waited around a bit, and then ran in to the Finish having done only about 5km of the 15km course. Mobile phones would have been really useful to these guys - eh Acejase?

I think you have convinced me a phone could simply be used to cheat using a map photo.

Yeah, but step back for moment and consider the mindset of the people who are considering cheating. Even at a national level event (here in the USA) there are so many simple ways to cheat that you don't need dream up esoteric methods using technology and theoretical software. Consider: Runner #1, who isn't in the top tier, instead of picking up one map at the start, clandestinely picks up two. He then navigates back to the vicinity of the parking lot, and drops one of the maps in a prearranged location where Runner #2, who has a later start, picks it up and quietly takes it back to his car to study it and make route choices in advance. This has been possible for years, but I've never heard of anyone doing it. I could come up with numerous other methods that people aren't using either. Just because there's a theoretical method that someone could use to cheat doesn't mean that you need to take steps to ban it. (There might be some way that a person could cheat by using a liquid, but does that mean that we'd ban all liquids on the course?) Take a tip from the Rocky Mountain 1000-Day, where we believe that people aren't interested in doing complicated things to cheat, and we are unconcerned with their bringing gizmos along; this has been boiled down to its essential core in the rules, which state, "Microwave ovens are explicitly allowed".

(There might be some way that a person could cheat by using a liquid, but does that mean that we'd ban all liquids on the course?)
Well, if you were involved in airline safety, you'd make sure they were all in 3oz / 100mL containers in a transparent Ziploc bag. I think this would help in orienteering too.

simmo,

Were these guys serious or just skylarking about?
Rob V has never mentioned this tale to me!

jjcote,

right on. I'm sure there are many ways to cheat as you have suggested. I asked the original question because I was surprised that I was told to remove my encouragement of people to take their phone as a safety device. I'm afraid in my naivity I never ever envisaged people using it to cheat. I've never consider cheating myself as I don't really see the point as I'm pretty much the only person intereted in my result. Must say I do like your rule!

Corrections: it wasn't the WA Champs, but a mid-week Badge event between the WA and Australian Champs. I also incorrectly maligned Acejase - he was much too young then, in fact he won M15. The main culprit I believe was one J Bazorak, and the beneficiary (although he was later DNFd) was Scotty. The 3rd conspirator was Roger Nicoll - where is he now?

I think the chief motivation was not wanting to take a 15km badge event seriously only 3 days before the Australian Champs, as well as an opportunity to (temporarily) embarass Rob and Maurice Ongania.

We participate in a 36-hr adventure race series where it is mandatory to carry an emergency radio that is sealed shut in an opaque bag such a way that it would be apparent if it had been opened. Regardless, the radio can really only be used to contact the race organization (unlike a cell phone), and there are rules about the type of communication that can take place:

- No penalty if you use the radio to let organizers know that you're OK but running late, to seek medical advice for a team member, to inform them about some situation on the race course, etc.

- Disqualified if you use the radio to seek help in relocating yourself or ask to be picked up.

If this concept were used in an orienteering event, people who wished to carry cell phones for safety reasons would need to present them and get them sealed. Organizers would need to check the phones at the finish line, and they would know if the sealed cell phone had been opened for penalty-free reasons, since the runner's call must go to the organizers. If the package were opened for any other reason, the runner would be disqualified.

But that's a lot of administration for a short event... I've done rogaines and adventure races where cell phones are encouraged, and I always carry one in that case. I've never heard of them being used to any advantage.

Echoing J-J sentiment, I find this thread amusing to hilarious. Will we be adding the cell phone check tent to the GPS check tent?

It seems to me the easiest way to cheat is by doping or following, yet no one is calling for the doping or following tents (at least that I'm aware of in the US).

As a parlour game, it is fun to try to think up ways to cheat. My favorite is by carrying a laptop, epunch sofrware, and an SI unit, and sitting leisurely on some knoll with a great view, programming the course, and punching in while I eat my lunch (I actually don't understand this technology all that well, but it is my understanding that all you would need is a split printout from an earlier runner to do this; perhaps I'm wrong, that's why its a parlour game :)).

And, as a parlour game, it is fun to think of ways to cheat with a cell phone. But to seriously suggest that this piece of technology needs to be treated differently than different technologies/methods by organizers seems, well, amusing. You would also, of course, have to ban digital cameras, other GPS devices, PDAs, and so on. Very amusing, at least to me.

I don't believe you would have to ban microwave ovens, tho, except the ones with WiFi connections.

I have used a cell phone while running in an event. My 12 year old son was running his first solo yellow course while I ran my course. d I had him carry his phone just in case he became completely lost. Anyway, he had no problems with the course and when he finished he called me (on my way to control #10) to let me know. I had to stop and fish through my pockets to find my phone probably wasting a minute or two. Then about 5 minutes later he called me again (on my way to control #12) to let me know he was leaving the finish area to go to the lodge. Again I wasted one or two minutes fishing for the phone.

For the next meet I made sure to tell him to only call me if it was an emergency.

The only problems that I know of (Maryland USA) have been in Score-O events organized for youth where teams of about 10 break into pairs to collectively get as many points as possible. A great format for mixed-ability groups such as Scout troops, and like a rogaine much depends on the planning phase. Teams communicating during the event have an obvious advantage. ("We're running late, can you get #22?") The participants don't always see it as cheating. It's very hard to police; maybe we should just explicitly allow it.

Wilburdeb inadvertently makes a point about how cell phones might be cheating... in the kid's categories, a particular kid who has a cell phone in his fanny pack then has added confidence that he won't get lost. As we know, confidence is everything when it comes to winning. It is the same reason why kids shouldn't be shadowed at a serious championships if they want to be included in the medals.

This may be a generational thing that will come up more in future. In a 1-day adventure race series up here, we have to carry FRS radios, which have a very limited range. They are seldom used by adult participants for any reason, and they normally spend the entire race turned off in the bottom of a dry bag. When the same company held their first high school adventure race last spring, several teams left their FRS radios turned on and chatted cheerfully to other teams on the designated race communication channel as they moved through the woods. There was no rule against it, as adult teams hadn't been inclined to do this - but it seemed obvious and natural to the kids. No question, you could use these radios to cheat in an adventure race - but the kids mostly seemed to use them for social networking!

I carry a cell phone in case I get lost or more likely hurt on the course. I never thought of it as cheating. It just seemed to make sense (in those areas that have reception). That is OK I don't ever medal anyway so I don't think I have stepped on anyones toes.

Some have suggested that you can cheat with a wristwatch; should we ban those, too?

WRT carrying a cell-phone: I think the benefits of added personal safety outweigh the remote risks of someone using it to cheat by some convoluted method.

Besides, whether you explicity mention it in the meet notes or not, are you going to frisk all starters to ensure they don't have cell phone or GPS in their pockets or in their hydration pack anyway?

Leepback, your controller's concern seems slightly ridiculous.

As jjcote has pointed out in another thread, USOF rules state, "During the competition only a compass and the map provided by the organizer may be used for navigation." So, if you have a similar rule in Australia, then it doesn't matter what gadgets you specifically allow or disallow for safety, for post-race route tracking, or whatever; it's cheating if a competitor uses anything but a map and compass to navigate the course.

If maps are collected at finish, someone might put map to his pants to smuggle it out of the finish area - I have seen that happen. Also it is possible to draw instructions and route choice hints to white pants and leave it at #1, so a later starter can pick it up and use the information for cheating. On might even rip pants and leave pieces of fabric as guide for a later starter.

Shouldn't we ban using pants too?

Wilburdeb - I don't think it applies to adults - anyone over 16 who is contending for a medal is not afraid of getting lost. Keep carrying your phone ;-)

I have personally tried the mobile phone 2-person map exercise prior to it being reported in O-Today. The main benefit of this exercise is that it encourages map simplification. The stationary mapholder must simplify the map in order to describe to the mapless runner, and the mapless runner must simplify the terrain he sees in order to describe to the mapholder. You can do it with FRS as well, just stay close in.

What will we do about GPS enabled contact lenses?

Photos of checkpoints for navigation eh! Hmmm, sounds like what the 60+ teams of three are in for at this weekend's 25km Salomon Giant's Rib Raid. Stay tuned for race reports on Sunday/Monday. Oops was that a hint?

At least here in North America the fastest orienteers (navigating without cheating) are also by far the fastest runners in terrain. I'd bet that Eric Bone, Mike Smith, and others could navigate and run an orienteering course faster than a 'cheater' would 'just run' the course. I still can't see how on the top end of racing that GPS is faster than map and compass.

I don't see what the big deal is, like I am against the cellphone thing bu if they were truly good at this sport they would not need a GPS.

Quoth Hammer - "At least here in North America the fastest orienteers (navigating without cheating) are also by far the fastest runners in terrain.".

I'd say that's far more likely to be true in places other than North America where the elite orienteers post faster times in running races, at least in highly runnable orienteering terrain. Given bad enough footing and nasty enough vegetation, even we may be fast enough in terrain to beat say an Olympic 5000 meter contender over a marked route in terrain but I wouldn't want to bet on it in nice runnable woods.

Of course, there's a difference between having a GPS and having the equivalent of a marked route in the terrain and some rather clever software for route selection will be required to get from one to the other. Spike's recent blog entry linking to a Swedish student's project merits a look on that score.

From experience having teenagers on a course, in groups, with cell phones, they are useless for locating some one who is lost and can't read the map. And if they can read the map, then they are not lost!
I have gotten calls from groups who ask for help in returning to the finish. Since they are lost, ie they don't know where they are, then it's pretty difficult to direct them home.
It could be useful if some one were injured, but they have to able to tell you where they are or you have to be able to use direction finders to home in on their location.
Frankly. I'd just ban the damn things!

The phone is used to keep the lost child calm and to remind them to find an open area, stay visible and stay put. In really serious situations the gps feature (if turned on) can be used to find the phone which is hopefully near the child.

Sorry to repeat (almost) some of the earlier threads that asked similarly about gps and wristwatches etc. but I?m relatively new around here.

Those that actually read my original post would see that I was not encouraging or condoning cheating, but trying to ascertain if there was any possibility an unfair advantage could be gained using a mobile phone and if this outweighs the obvious safety advantages that mobiles may provide. A valid question I feel but there are a few out there that for some reason feel isn't.

Thanks for all your responses to this topic (except nails) although I'm still not sure what the answer is. Makes you feel pleased not to be a politician having to make really hard decisions. We all rubbish the ones they make but in reality you'd be lucky to please half the people half the time.

My best summary is

1. It's possible to gain an unfair advantage using a mobile (cell) phone with or without camera or gps functionality.

2. It's possible to gain an unfair advantage without such a device.

3. An extremely small percentage of the orienteering community would bother to cheat preferring to win or lose on their own merits.

4. Future technological advances will have further impacts on our sport.

5. People interpret rules differently and hence apply them as they see fit e.g. do the rules say you can't carry such devices or just that you can't use them to assist with navigation?

6. Competitors are currently carrying different devices on course that technically they shouldn't but without any intent to gain an advantage from it. (That is if you don?t count post race analysis as an advantage). They also risk the possibility of a protest against them if somebody is malicious enough to do so.

How will I apply this in the future? At local events I shall encourage competitors to carry their phone - it's a no brainer to me. Advantages far outweigh disadvantages and in the unlikely event that anybody is found to be cheating they will be given one warning and after that barred from the club. (It's probably not in our constitution but who cares.) At other "bigger" events I shall do what the controller suggests. Hey I've never been silly enough to become a controller.

The event in question that precipitated this thread is one in a series of "NSW State League" events and hey, we're not playing for sheep stations. The final prize (best 7 of 13 results) is a $AUS 7 cloth patch, hardly enough encouragement to risk the wrath of your peers by cheating. Having said that I respect the decision my controller has taken. It's his call and he's playing it by the book. Besides, we won't be frisking people at the start so basically they can do as they choose. Now, what do I do about the guys with the 305's strapped to their wrists......I think I'll just let it ride.

Nice summary! And I agree with you 100%.

At a local meet last month we had a guy out on a course for a really long time (4 hours?). Literally, just as we were headed out for a search and rescue he made it to the finish. Unfortunately, he'd left his cell phone in the car....

At local events I shall encourage competitors to carry their phone it's a no brainer to me. Advantages far outweigh disadvantages

Yes, nice summary.

However, I remain unconvinced that the stature of the event should affect the decision, especially when safety is an input factor. JMHO, as always.

Not exactly on topic, but for inventiveness in 'cheating' it was hard not to be impressed by the character who appeared in an Adelaide court yesterday for peeling the barcodes off $30 items in shops and putting them on $900 ones.

Actually, we have one orienteer hereabouts who I have strongly encouraged to carry a cell phone, and for certain events, I would not want him to go out without one (and we'd want to know his number), because he consistently takes a very long time, and after about three hours we could call him and say, "Hey, where are you, we're picking up the controls now, so come back in!".

One of the issues that has come up a number of times in the past is that a relative newcomer has DNFed and gotten in his car and left without going to the finish. Maybe. Is he still in the woods or not? If everyone had a phone, and the organizers had the phone numbers, then if someone were missing at the end of the day, a phone call might be able to tell us whether we needed to start a search or not.

If maps are collected at finish, someone might put map to his pants to smuggle it out of the finish area - I have seen that happen.

I've done that! Day 2 of the US Champs last November. I wanted to leave as soon as possible after finishing, and I somehow lost my map with a couple of controls to go, but finished the course on memory. When I got the finish line and they tried to collect my map, I didn't have it. But then later I found it in my pants! Must have slipped into them somehow when I dropped it. How strange! (No, I'm not worried about being retroactively disqualified — I missed a control that day and was disqualified anyway.)

J-J brings up what I consider to be the biggest headache for the finish crew - enforcing the collection of maps until all starters have started. Obviously, some will slip through, and if cheating were the intent, then you have not stopped it. I find the whole map collection thing frustrating because I end being the person who has to try to enforce something I don't agree with, and people get unhappy and not very pleasant about not being able to take the map with them as they are leaving the premises. So, you let some slide because you know the person isn't going to show it to anyone? Shouldn't that apply to everyone?

When I'm in charge, maps are never collected at the finish. USOF rules don't require it.

Most orienteers have learned the hard way not to carry keys in the woods. Rip a pocket,end of keys. I suspect cell phones will also be lost, although you might find it by calling the number if it is not turned off. How about water damage? I don't think I would want to be the organizer that encouraged people to take their cell phones into the woods.

Yes, map collection is the meet director's decision - one I have agrued against at the meets I have been involved with. Now, I try to keep the map collection box well before the download station, and if the meet director wants the maps collected, then they need to designate a person to the collection and to handle the ensuing discussions on why the person should or shouldn't have to drop their map.

And if the map makes it as far as me, oh, well.

Gail,

There's plastic bags, besides the people we are most worried about don't show up on wet days (or cross deep streams)

The most practical way anyone would have to work this to advantage is to carry a mobile phone out on the course with GPS, and communicate via bluetooth headset to someone back at the event centre (maybe in a cliched spy van, painted black with no windows) who's got your GPS co-ordinates and is telling you where to go.

This could be illegal, or it could evolve into a variation of the sport in it's own right.

I admit I started skim reading things half way down the thread, but my understanding of orienteering rules is that it was essentially against the rules to carry anything other than a map and a compass (phone, gps etc included). But then at most events now, many people run with GPS watches for analysing their routes. There's no obvious way to use them to cheat (well, maybe there is, bt I'm not that technically inclined) and they really help as a training tool.

For the record I run with a phone anywhere I have coverage as I suffer from exercise induced anaphylaxis, so orienteering is probably not the wisest choice of sports. I'd prefer to let someone know if I'm about to pass out.
(and my phone is old and cheap and doesn't have a camera or GPS or a colour screen or anything vaguely useful other than the ability o talk to or message another person). I can't imagine anyone is WA being anal enough to disqualify me...

Trouble is, most of our events are out of mobile range. There's a big hole in cdma/next g coverage about 30kms East of Perth, from Gt E Hwy Southwards for about 200kms. OAWA has purchased a satphone for emergencies - I'd like to see a competitor carrying one of those around a course!

Carrying anything you like is not against the rules; using anything other than map and compass to navigate with is.

Eoin is spot on. The Orienteering Australia Competition Rules has a section on equipment. It states that 'During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.' Short and simple. Use anything else (mobile phones included) as a navigational aid and you are cheating.

So, my question to your controller would be 'Show me the rule that states a competitor is not allowed to carry a mobile phone'. As far as I can tell there isn't one.

Mind you, if you are really concerned about safety you could enforce the requirement for everyone to carry a whistle. There is a rule for that. To quote 'A whistle must be carried if stated by the organiser in the event entry form or program. This may only be used in cases of emergency, the distress signal being six blasts at ten second intervals, then a minute pause before repeating the pattern'.

A whistle is cheaper than a mobile phone; it doesn't rely on being covered by an adequate signal; and doesn't have a battery that can go flat.

But don't use that whistle to navigate! :-)

Again somewhat off-topic, but I saw someone at the Canberra marathon talking on a mobile whilst running (not very fast).

Last week at the Eaglehawk 1/2 Marathon, the winner, Richard Gliesner, ran with a mobile phone as he was on call.
Bought back memories of a couple of years ago, when John Maher was also on call, and got a call with 3 k to go. That was just what the runners around him needed, they took that moment to put in a surge

Well what a long thread, can't remember now if anyone reported a rescue using a mobile phone, but I now do so. On a daylight rogaine in NZ bush. The team couldn't find a route on a tricky ridge system. Off-ridge travel in this terrain is not advised, certainly not for those who can't navigate the ridges. They retreated to higher elevation where there was reception, and reported in before settling in for the night. The organisers very much appreciated the knowledge.

Where rules are needed, NZ uses the Australian rogaine rules which say POSSESSION of other navigational aids is prohibited, not merely USE. But they also say that state associations can vary them for non-champ events. NZ rogaine organisers generally encourage carrying mobiles, as in other countries you can expect your event to go under the microscope if there is a serious incident.

The benefit/cost ratio isn't so good for orienteering but it wouldn't bother me if a runner in a traditional non-champ orienteering event had a mobile or a Forerunner and I look forward to my first microwave "ovent". Someone was showing off his GPS trace for one of the NZ Champs races recently, at this stage people are more interested in how good is the satellite reception in various terrains and tree cover than was he cheating. Everyone in this thread seems to be talking as though GPS's give perfect readings...

In the NYTimes this morning there is a good article about how Nokia is attempting to use the cell phone to end world poverty. They have Nokia employees researching new cell applications in many third-world countries.

According to the article, 80% of the world's population now has cell coverage...and this is continuing to expand rapidly. The first billion cell phones took 20 years to sell; the last billion have sold in two years.

There's a sweet confluence in Finland between Nokia, the world's largest cell phone company, and all those orienteering Finns. Just as we've welcomed ePunching, the Web and internet into our sport in the past ten years, I think it is only a matter of time until some orienteering Nokia employee figures out how to combine cell technology with the sport.

how to combine cell technology with the sport
With their Sports Tracker you can already do both live/online and offline orienteering GPS tracking. And RouteGadget's live tracking is currently done with Nokia's cell phones too.

Eoin is spot on. The Orienteering Australia Competition Rules has a section on equipment. It states that 'During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.' Short and simple. Use anything else (mobile phones included) as a navigational aid and you are cheating.

So I was wondering - when I had to pull out my magnifying glass to read the detail in today's race, was I cheating? If not, why not - a device that helps me read the map more clearly is surely a "navigational aid"? (and, of course, if I was cheating by using the magnifying glass, am I also cheating by wearing contact lenses?).

Adrian, that's like saying that wearing underwear is cheating because you can think more clearly with it on, thus navigating better. I think the line is fairly obvious - unless you can come up with some fancy way to use your magnifier to actually affect your navigating (reflecting the sun just so? burning a north hole in your map?) I don't think anyone would try to stretch quite that far.

...wearing underwear is cheating because you can think more clearly with it on, thus navigating better...

I would argue that wearing underwear is an important safety practice, much like wearing a whistle. (Actually, underwear probably does more to keep me safe than my whistle does...)

Are you wearing kevlar underwear?

Just as long as they aren't nylon...

I think the line is fairly obvious

Yes, maybe. I had never considered a magnifier as an illegal aid until this discussion got going. But now I feel more guilty taking the magnifier (which I use for navigational purposes) than I do carrying my GPS (which I don't). As far as I can see (which isn't far ;-) the magnifier is clearly illegal by the letter of the rule. So why is it okay to use one? Where exactly is that line?

Having poor eyesight is a limiting factor in this sport. Just like being a slow runner, a poor decision maker, having bad concentration, and being bad at visualization - to name a few.

Is there something special about the visual impairment that allows us to correct it without breaking the rules? Or is the issue that the magnifying glass is so low-tech that it is okay? Or maybe the rule isn't written to exactly mean what is intended?

I've always been of the opinion that seeing should not be a limiting factor imposed on anyone. The organizers provide you with a map, and you are entitled to all of the information contained in that map, on an equal basis with everyone else. I've been appalled when some people have suggested that 1:10000 maps are inappropriate for elite competition because they don't provide enough challenge in terms of readability. (There is a reason to use 1:15000, but it has to do with having long route-choice legs fit into a manageable space.) If magnifiers were not okay, then how would we handle people who have had corrective eye surgery? I say this as someone who is nearsighted, and who does not now (and may never) need a magnifier, so it's my competitors who would suffer if magnifiers were not allowed. Although I suppose that I would then be barred from wearing my glasses (not to mention the contact-lens check at the O-Ringen, where some old lady sticks tape onto your eyeballs to remove your contacts). But no, lenses of all sorts are definitely okay. And I'd say that that also applies to binoculars, if anyone were interested in carrying them. Might be useful in a Rogaine.

In other news, I now have a GPS device that I will occasionally be carrying with me on the course. No worries about being accused of cheating: it has one button (on/off), one LED, and one USB jack. No display.