Discussion: Answering that Olympic question

I've lost count of how many times over the years I have been asked, "Is orienteering in the Olympic Games?". Of course I know the answer and the various reasons behind it.

What I am interested in though, is what answer people give when asked this same question? I always like to prepare myself with short, clear and simple "elevator talk" answers to these sort of questions so that I can promote the best positive image of our sport to the general public.

In 50 words or less, what is your "elevator talk" answer to this question?

It's an olympic recognised sport, just not in the olympics.

I usually go on to say that it would be in the olympics if it was in any way spectator friendly.

Not television-friendly enough is the obvious answer. Less obvious answers include that the sport is too heavily concentrated in one continent (Europe) and weak in many of the major Olympic power nations (particularly the US and China, although the latter is changing).

I was struck a couple of years ago at one of the IOF meetings with a comparison someone drew with cricket (which is also trying to get into the Olympics in some form, although with pretty lukewarm support from some of the major playing countries). Cricket's profile is fairly similar to ours in terms of the number of affiliated countries and the concentration of talent in a relatively small number of countries, but they can offer the Olympics something we can't - a billion potential TV viewers in India.

Orienteering is one of 29 IOC-recognised sports that have formed the ARISF (Assoc. Recognised IOC Int. Sports Feds). Orienteering currently holds the secretariat of that group through IOF secretary Barbro Ronnberg. Membership of this helps get orienteering into the World Masters and World Games programmes, where orienteering is one of the biggest sports by participation. However, Orienteering has Buckley's chance of ever getting on the Summer Games programme: there are just too many other sports ahead of us in the queue, and you are talking big bucks.
http://www.arisf.org/members.php
http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisation/if/index_uk...

Turn the question around and ask why such 'sports' as rhythmic and artistic gymnastics, synchronised swimming and diving, trampoline, and greco-roman wrestling ARE in the Olympics. I wouldn't have thought you get crowds of people falling over themselves to participate in the average weekend modern pentathlon (if there is such an animal). I don't think baseball and softball had the required number of countries when they were admitted - that was due to the political and media influence by the US over the IOC. If BMX is in, shouldn't all the competitors be pre-teens? Are skateboards next? As for tv friendly, what do people get out of watching swimming, shooting, wrestling, archery, sailing, judo, taekwondo, etc. (Not to mention B- and S-ball, the subtleties of which Americans might appreciate, but to me are slower than a game of cricket with 11 Geoff Boycotts in the batting team.)

And why is there no Roy and HG this year?

When I was on the IOF Council (more than two decades ago) we spent a fair amount of time and resources trying first to become an Olympic recognized sport and second to be on an Olympics program.
Even in the 1970's special orienteering events were held near and in conjunction with the Olympics in Munich and Montreal partly with a goal to impress the IOF bigwigs with what a great sport is orienteering.
In the 1980's we were told that the IOC was saying Orienteering lacked the required number of member countries on the required number of continents to be considered.
Orienteering has long since passed those modest threshholds but it seems no closer to being on any Olympic program.
There were also questions about the spectator value of our sport and if cheating could be prevented. GPS tracking and systems like SportIdent have taken care of those two issues but it seems to make no difference.
Face it. In terms of participating athletes countries and continents orientering is way ahead of many of the sports already on the Olympic program. When was the last time you saw a canoe/kayak or gymnastics festival with 20,000 participants? 2,000?
However there are sports that are in the Olympic Games and sports that are out. The IOC big wigs are from the sports that are in. They are not likely to vote other sports in and thus diminish the revenue that streams to their own sports.
Twenty years ago we thought the best chance for orienteering to be on an Olympic program was if FIS (Federation International du Ski) were to take Ski-O under their wing. We went fishing for FIS but FIS didn't bite!
Is there a lesson to be learned from Triathlon gaining the inner circle back in 2000? Yes. All the ITU had to do was bastardize their rules to allow drafting on the bike protion and then be lucky enough to have the Games held in a country where triathlon is very popular and where it expected to gain a few of medals. (Well Simon Whitfield is part Aussie)
When are the Games next likely to be held in a Nordic country?

There's no Roy and HG coz they were great at Sydney, then tried to do the same thing at Athens and it tanked.

As for the viewing pleasure of running vs swimming I'm in your corner Simmo, but only because I run and don't swim. I think you appreciate the subtleties of whatever you do yourself (or appreciate the amazing level of performance more)

To answer a few of simmo's sports, baseball and softball are on their way out after 2008 (in baseball's case this is because the top players don't play - I suspect softball may be collateral damage). Modern pentathlon and Greco-Roman wrestling are historical hangovers and there has been a strong push to get rid of the former for some time now. The large weight given to gymnastics, synchronised swimming et al is because of their (alleged) popularity amongst female TV viewers in the US.

It's also easier to get a new discipline in an existing sport (e.g. BMX) than it is to get a new sport in.

political and financial clout, lack of. [6 words]

simmo - "If BMX is in, shouldn't all the competitors be pre-teens?"
isnt that like someone saying the only people who do orienteering are scouts?

i do agree though that some sports like artistic gymnastics and syncronised swimming are lucky to be in there. A very broad view i sometimes say is that if it has to be judged it shouldnt be in there.

Orienteering will never get in the olympics because
-it isnt a spectator sport,
-It wont draw huge crowds or television audiences.
-no one knows what it is outside those involved in the sport
-there is buggar all money involved in orienteering

I have previuosly heard people comment on how orienteering missed the boat and could have got into the mass media (and i guess the olympics) instead of triathlon. I dont think this is true for the simple fact that it is a spectator sport and oing isnt.

Gord - great to see you are still positive about O's prospects. However, getting in as a discipline instead of a sport is equally unlikely: think of the disciplines that are currently missing from big-name sports - the Kilo Time Trial and Downhill MTB (Cycling), Cross Country and Mountain Running (Athletics), Dog Paddle (Swimming).

My point about BMX was to do with the number of countries requirement of the IOC. My guess is that in most countries it is mainly a junior sport, and there wouldn't be that many countries where adults compete regularly in large numbers. The best BMX riders usually manage to grow up and become top road, MTB or freestyle cyclists, or moto-cross riders. Whoever wins the gold medal may not be able to beat Robbie McEwen should he decide to go back to BMX.

Orienteering has long since passed those modest threshholds but it seems no closer to being on any Olympic program.

Actually we have all the continents now but still are below the threshold for the Summer Olympics. The threshold is 75 and the IOF has 70 members. Some of these 70 aren't real in the eyes of the IOC. All of the associate members aren't, and there can be closer scrutiny of some full ones. I think the deal is that beyond recognition by the IOF, the IOC wants the national Federation to be fully legally incorporated and to be recognized by the national OC. Some of the national O federations fail one test or the other.

i really don't get the "its not a spectator sport" argument. it is - more so even than most sports because the navigational factor makes the results much less predictable.

it needs money (for the tv cameras, commentary, gps map overlays etc) for it to be sure, but i reckon it would be intriguing. sure i say that because i know the sport, but no-one knew triathlon 20 years ago (or however many years ago) either, but it became popular to watch too. it just had the advantage that it wasnt so technology dependent to be spectator friendly.

so i think the only hope that orienteering has, is that it uses technology (not necessarily changes format) wisely (and market it), and in leading up to this, it must be done innovately to keep the potentially inhibitory costs down.

i really don't get the "its not a spectator sport" argument

I don't believe the argument is true anymore. As most of those who watched the poor first starter in the Women's WOC Long Final wander about in the giant ferns, and then the climax of the Men's Relay, would hopefully agree.

Trac-Trac is nice, by the way, but only for those in the know. The human drama will convert a lot more of the uninitiated. The production team at the WOC showed great professionalism. And in general, the IOF (prodded by others, like the PWT) set a goal some years ago to make the sport more spectator-friendly, and by now they seem to have succeeded. Credit for a lot of the recent developments should mostly be given, in my opinion, to Björn Persson, IOF"s Sports Director.

One of the main reasons why it is very difficult to get orienteering into the summer Olympics is that no new sports are wanted there, when they are already now such a huge event. If orienteering or any other sport wants to get in, that means something needs to be taken out, and that is always more difficult and needs a great support from the big coutries: the USA, Russia, China, GB, France, Germany. I guess the common opinion is that the ski-O will be in the Olympics earlier than the foot-O.

Ski-O will never be in the Olympics; neither will foot-O. There is not enough money in orienteering for TV, advertising, VIPs etc. The Olympics is about spectator-entertainment and selling consumer goods. Agreed that many of us get a lot out of watching WOC live and agreed that WOC organisers and IOF are doing a good job. That will never translate to the average couch potato in the US - we should not continue to delude ourselves. Orienteering's future (and past) is as a mass-participation sport that lots of people enjoy on the same day in the same area.

That will never translate to the average couch potato in the US

To the contrary, the average couch potato has keen interest in seeing other people making bad choices, suffering, and being humiliated. That's what the bulk of reality shows are about, no? We're finally headed in the correct direction with the visibility and the coverage. With good production, orienteering would be far more entertaining to show as part of the Olympics than several other established Olympic sports. And we got sob life stories galore.

O-Ringen finish chute had ad boards from PowerBar and Google. Not only can't we get attention from Google in the U.S., we can't even get sponsors that would seem naturals like PowerBar. This seems like us (orienteers) not doing the job of PR and marketing, and not an intrinsic fault of the sport of orienteering.

If orienteering were a race rather than a time trial then maybe there'd be more chance. However, various formats have been tried but they're never the real thing for orienteers, and look contrived to outsiders. The sheer nature of the navigation sport needing a course unsighted by competitors prior to their run places a significant obstacle - or it'd be olympic cross country running, and I'm pretty sure that's not on the programme either.

I think people underestimate the spectator appeal of icons (representing athletes) moving across maps on television and/or computer screens. These screens can simultaneously be bordered by banner ads.
The recent WOC relays in the Czech Republic were pretty good entertainment for this spectator five time zones away.
I was even more entertained watching the icons representing some friends competing in a recent 48 hour adventure race. Unfortunately in their case I could only guess at the checkpoint locations.
Wouldn't it be great if Olympic spectators watching athletics in the main stadium and waiting for the marathon runners to appear could also see on the giant screens live simulations of the orienteering race taking place in a forest many kilometres away?
Just a rainy day dream.

A little off topic but timely perhaps....

Here is a link to an old interview with Adam van Koeverden, Canada's flag bearer at today's opening cermonies in Beijing, after participating in several GHO orienteering events in the autumn of 2006.

scroll down to the January 10th blog entry

http://ghocanadagho.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archiv...

Orienteering is already on American TV..think Amazing Race..
As far as Olympics goes, its should be for faster, higher, stronger..maybe not smarter..Is the world really ready for a sport where you have to think as well as have athletic attributes..
I heard Michael Diamond described as an athlete today. Gotta love the shooting.

...in the U.S., we can't even get sponsors that would seem naturals like PowerBar. This seems like us (orienteers) not doing the job of PR and marketing, and not an intrinsic fault of the sport of orienteering.

One of the problems in marketing the sport to sponsors is the significant subset of orienteers who take pride in spending as little money as possible, whether that relates to entry fees, travel arrangements, dining out or clothing. Many of the products that we *do* spend money on for orienteering aren't available from mainstream companies or retail stores who might otherwise sponsor us, e.g. O pants, control card holders, thumb compasses, O shoes, etc.

If you're a sponsor, it's only fair to expect some payback - and orienteers are a tough crowd in that department. GHO is very, very fortunate to have Salomon's support for our adventure running series, and it's been a positive thing to see our participants wearing more Salomon shoes, tights and jackets - because that's the way it's got to work!

If orienteering were a race rather than a time trial then maybe there'd be more chance.

This is very true. Think the one kilometre (Kilo) time trial, which was dumped after Athens. The reason for this was because 'no-one wanted to watch one person racing around a track on their own'. The commentator in Athens at the time summed it up nicely after Shane Kelly threw his tantrum when beaten by the three riders who followed him.

It's all about pitting people against each other and this is even more successful when they do it at the same time.

I just re-read my last post in conjunction with a report in the news about the Aussies in the Equestrian and how one of them had a horror day in the dressage. I don't think I can comment any further.

And watching little gymnastic girls falling off the beam last night in their subjective sport wasn't all that entertaining. Skillful and to be admired yes, but I'm a simple man who likes racing and confrontation for a result!

Can't let the time-trial versus race argument go by without pointing towards the winter olympics - the majority of "action" events are time trials, only a couple of the sports have more than niche participation in NZ, yet the whole show does a pretty good job of capturing the attention and imagination of the kiwi couch potato populace every 4 years.

It's my understanding that to get in to the olympics now requires X number of participating countries and a sport currently on the programme to be dropped. IOF membership, even counting the likes of Somalia and Puerto Rico is not only less than X, but several other sports are also ahead in the queue if based on numbers. I think I've heard that somewhere along the line - the 70s? - when the olympics were still growing in size and diversity that orienteering did have a chance to get in, but was blocked by the Scandinavians who were worried about losing the "purity" of the sport. Given that the rising countries of the time, which did support inclusion, were the likes of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and the DDR, and what we know now about exactly how Olympic achievement was "encouraged" in those countries at that time, the Scandies may have had a point. Even so, if there's any truth to that story it's slightly annoying don't you think?

A cynic might also suggest that the Scandies may have been more worried about protecting their place on the top of the orienteering world than drugs or other cheating sneaking in... but I couldn't possibly comment

If orienteering were a race rather than a time trial then maybe there'd be more chance.

I'm not sure that this is true. If presented well an orienteering 'time trial' can have all the excitement of a race to the spectators in the arena or watching on television. Especially if there are seeded starts. People enjoy the excitement of seeing whether ABC figure skater or diver will have a better result than XYZ figure skater or diver (or whatever).

If the race aspect is such a big deal, give them a race. Have a relay, mass start. Use a smaller area, with high spectator appeal, and have that battle to the death.

i dont know if this was mensioned above but it would be hard to get world records unless u did it on min / ks because the course would have to change every time.

I don't think the issue of world records is a showstopper. THere are no world records in downhill skiing, either (just as one example). Other sports that are in the Olympics that don't lend themselves to world records include basketball, soccer, pretty much any team sport. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

Getting down to the nitty gritty, turn off the TV and turn on the radio to JJJ and hey presto Roy and HG. All the big answers answered on attackpoint!!!

well said birdman.. i heard/knew about stories like those mentioned above- just like few years after i start orienteering

And on the argument of whether or not people want to watch sports they know nothing about, I'd just like to point out how caught up I got in the white water canoeing that made it to the top of TVNZ's "sports we show every 4 years for a bit of a laugh" list last night. Absolutely brilliant stuff!! (Admittedly, a: it's inherently more visual than orienteering and b: anyone inhabiting this forum probably has a headstart when it comes to interest in "fringe" outdoor sports...)

I was hoping that the guy from Togo was going to win it.

...the citizen of France who was once visited Togo as a baby.

Just linking a bit to the time trial arguement - the cycling time trials yesterday were rubbish to watch, far worse than the WOC coverage.

Ok so there were bikes and things following some riders but it was the same sections of the shown over and over again and only at one point other than the finish did we ever regularly see the time of the rider up (at the top of the hill).

It was exciting to watch but only because a British girl was doing so well. The coverage could have been so much better though. More split times, more cameras following riders actually showing things (and their time while they showed it).

I said right at the start of this thread that the spectator aspect might be a problem - it IS a problem but it's also a problem for other spots which ARE in the Olympics - Sailing and Cycle road TT that I've seen so far - there may be others I haven't seen or are yet to come.

"Just linking a bit to the time trial arguement - the cycling time trials yesterday were rubbish to watch, far worse than the WOC coverage"

and so far after almost the end of the bike in the women's triathlon I am bored bored bored.

The lead changes and chance of so many things that can happen make orienteering much more exciting to watch.

We got to see the crash over and over and over.

Maybe orienteering needs more bleeding?

Hey Hammer, I got a message from Simon Whitfield today who apologized on behalf of the women for the boring race and he'd try to make the men's triathlon slightly more exciting for you.

He did

The men's triathlon might as well have been a running race - there were only two people (the two who broke away on the bike leg) whose overall place was more than one place different to their place on the run leg.

Triathlon isn't a real sport anyway. It's a bunch of overdressed (or underdressed) snobs who like to show off all their fancy gear to non-sporting types who then think of them as gods.

Most of them do have godly legs, so it's not that much of a stretch.

disorienteer, I see blood at almost every O race I go to -- fortunately for me it's usually on someone else, but still...

Could make for quite dramatic TV!

If synchronized swimming is a sport worthy of the Olympics, so is orienteering...

Maybe orienteering needs more bleeding?

Here is RMOC's Neal Barlow at the US Champs in Laramie two weekends ago...! (Head vs. tree branch)

Ah, thanks, bbrooke -- that's the image I was thinking of (one of them, anyway). I did see Neal; didn't know his name.

I'm sure it looks worse than it really is.

PG-13?

maybe we would get into the olympics if we had a token dirty bogan called Kamakazi doing orienteering....it worked for BMX

ah yes, synchonised swimming... if nothing else it has provided the best accidentally insightful piece of commentary I've heard so far (hey, they sneakily snuck some on to the TV between two things I wanted to watch, ok!)

"There's no reason why New Zealand and Australia couldn't be among the top countries in synchro... Both countries take their aquatic sports seriously..." (so there's the reason they're not!)

I regret to inform that Neal passed away not much more than 4-5 seconds after that picture was taken. So, in this case at least, the injury was vastly more serious than the photo. What you can't see in the photo is the large attack badger in the process of eating Neal's right leg.

Someone attempted to revive him with Coke, but, alas, Neal was a dyed-and-true Pepsi man from start to finish. I mean, really, how could it have been otherwise?

There are silly rumours that being catlike, Neal somehow has survived his death, but personally I would demand some pretty strong proof.

120 proof?

What would the possibility of having a camera on a person as they are doing an orienteering course? It would be kind of like the cameras mounted on a race car. I would think we are pretty close to being able to do this without adding too much weight or size. If you then had the feed go thru whatever software to stabilize the picture, it might make for some interesting drama in the woods.

It has been experimented with at some level. Some members of my club put together this crude system with a digital camera. Headcam Most people have probably seen the "Follow Me" videos on Youtube also.

Baseball, Softball, Golf, Rugby (7s), Squash, Karate and Roller sports are shortlisted for the two remaining spots in 2016. That will be decided by a simple majority vote of the IOC in Oct 2009. Even if Orienteering met the number of countries criteria it is the lobbying of IOC members for votes that remains the most difficult and expensive task. To the dreamers - ask yourselves why would Orienteering want to waste time and effort on cosying up to this crew and how successful do you really think our lobbying would be? And for what? Being in the Olympics doesn't make Greco-Roman wrestling any more attractive; maybe you get a few more Govt dollars thrown at the sport in Scandinavia but thats about it. Lets forget the Olympics now its over and concentrate on making orienteering more attractive to orienteers and people who are about to become orienteers.

Some exciting Greco-Roman wrestling:

96Kg Gold Medal Match Athens

Rugby 7s is already unpopular at the Commonwealth Games. Why make it an Olympic sport?

Eoin: Very good point that i have not before thought about. Many olympic events are just a side-show for larger events such as world cups or championships which are taken much more seriously by competitors of that sport. Even if we did get O-ing in, i have no doubt that more O-pilgrims would choose a WOC event over the olympics, as these events are chosen due to local maps, and more suitable for orienteering.

talking of unpopular olympic sports, did anyone watch the tennis???

Tennis is boring.

boltboi you can find all the Roy And HG goldenring Beijing 2008 shows here http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/thissportinglife/

Does BMX indicate that TV is the driver of whether a sport will be allowed into the Olympics? Plus politics of course.

olympics - they're so last month!

"Baseball, Softball, Golf, Rugby (7s), Squash, Karate and Roller sports are shortlisted for the two remaining spots in 2016."

That has to be the most ridiculous thing ever. Sports that are about to be kicked out should be banned from trying to get back in again for a little while at least!

Of all those, squash seems the only deserving candidate and a rather bizarre omission given table tennis, tennis and badminton are all there already.

Surely we could kick out shooting?! Such a joke.

The Deaf Olympics do have Orienteering since 1997! There were about over 20 different countries raced orienteering last time in Melbourne, Australia. See more information at http://www.deaflympics.com/ and also http://www.deaforienteering.org/index.htm.

Slighly off topic...
Hmm, I play octopush (underwater hockey) which also made a bid for the Olympics but was denied for similar reasons
Firstly, it's played on the bottom of a 3m swimming pool - fairly unfriendly for viewing anything but bubbles, fins and snorkels!
Secondly, it is not world wide (it is played in a lot of counties though)
Somehow I think orienteering will be in the Olympics before octopush!