Discussion: Night-O

Hello to all,
Any ideas or suggestions about Night-O training? I'm doing my 1st Rogaine soon and have zero nighttime O experience. Any local events or get-togethers? I live about 30 min. west of Boston. I know alot of the folks on this site are locals.
Thanks for any input ... JDP

I've done a lot of nightime navigation in events, but I've not really specifically trained for night other than that I always seem to find myself training when night falls. I would say the number one thing to do is become comfortable with travelling at night in the woods, off trail. Ideally, to the point where there is little distinction (mostly mental) between day and night travel.

You need to just get yourself comfortable with gear (lighting) and with not allowing your pace to fall off that much (get use to your timing). For the Rogaine portion, you need to set up the night portion to be controls you will be comfortable going after and able to find (good handrails or catch features). So, I'd suggest you setup some controls or features of varying difficulty to become aware of what you can track at night - a line-0 is a simpler way of doing this as well. Become aware of your increased dependence on bearings, pacing, etc.

Just some suggestions anyway.

I agree with Urthbuoy that the #1 strategy is to spend some time navigating in the dark to become comfortable with the way it feels, how your headlamp works, the techniques that work best for you when you navigate at night, etc.

I've found that I tend to overestimate distance travelled in the dark. Perhaps I'm taking smaller steps to avoid faceplants. (Not always successfully, I might add.)

You can't rely as much on your vision at night, so things like compass bearing, pace counting and/or timing become more important. However, other senses can be very useful too. Can you hear frogs on the swamp that's supposed to be nearby? What about a rocky stream rushing beside you? Traffic on a road? You can often feel the temperature drop when you leave the forest and enter a large open area, or feel the breeze increase as you approach the top of a large hill. And don't be afraid to turn off your light once in awhile, especially in a rogaine where you probably won't be travelling at breakneck speed for 24 hours. When your eyes become accustomed to the dark, it is sometimes easier to get your bearings, e.g. see the shapes of hills, lakes or fields that extend beyond the range of your light. When paddling at night in adventure races, I prefer to keep my light off most of the time.

In southern Ontario, Backwoods Adventures offers occasional Night-O clinics. I'm not sure if there is anything similar in your area.

Last year at the WCOC rogaine, we found a control by paying attention to the noise shadow of a small hill. We walked along the far side of where we thought the hill was located, and when the road noise from behind it disappeared we knew we were even with the hill. This was complicated by the the thick briars and swamp surrounding the hill. In any case, as Bash says, use all your senses for navigation.

If you plan on staying out all night, get used to doing an all nighter. About 3 or 4 AM things get pretty weird in the deep woods.

If I were you, and I'm not, I wouldn't actually go out at night to train. It's spooky and dangerous. It's easier to get injured at night than in the daytime. Instead, I'd sit home, drinking green tea, and mulling over all the remarkably useful information you're getting on AP, like how to listen for frogs and mind the temperature.

If I did go out to "train" at night, I wouldn't go out before midnight. I'd go out early in the morning, pre-dawn, because it's so lovely to experience the return of light, and you can practice capitalizing on that energy rush. But then, I'm a morning person.

I am scared of the dark, so if I trained at night, I'd bring a friend along. Just like in the real thing. Have your friend trick you by taping reflective animal eye shapes onto trees so you can practice dealing with your irrational primeval urge to flee. (Which can get you lost quickly.) Yeah.

Which rogaine are you doing?

Oh, this is actually barb, not isabel.

Hi Jimmy, I probably live not too far from you (Lunenburg). I do go out at night to train (mostly just trail running) because it's often all I can fit into my schedule. There are definitely a bunch of orienteering maps hereabouts that you could use for night excursions, but if you're really thinking about Rogaine, then you might be better off with a USGS map. Put on your light, decide on a few places you want to go, and head out. One nice thing about this time of year is that getting lost isn't much of an issue -- you can always turn around and follow your own footprints home.

JJ, ever have any problems with "official" types during night excursions in your area? seems like most of the parks around are supposed to be closed after dark...just wondering if there's any enforcement.

Just show the officer your Night Orienteering Is Not A Crime T-shirt and everything will be ok.

Thanks for all the input! I'm doing the 2006 NARC in western NY state. I have a few years of (mostly "sprint") adventure racing experience with 12-hour events being the longest yet. One surprising aspect of doing O events coming from and adv. racing background is that I find the navigation MUCH harder... scale definitely screws me up.
JJ - good idea about the USGS maps. I'll try it out. I'm not too worried about "official" types...can always turn off the light and run.
Thanks for the other ideas...I think I need to hone my senses!

I do a lot of night training and racing. The only thing I'd add to the advice already given is get a decent light. I know that the orienteering community is generally tight with equipment expenditures, but an HID light will make a difference like no other piece of equipment possibly can.

As for enforcement of closing times, around here, the big crackdown is on mountain biking. If you're caught riding a trail that's closed at night, you WILL go to jail - at least until morning. Runners seem to get lighter treatment. I've never been hassled, but I don't flaunt my presence, either. Park outside the area and go in on foot. Turn your light off when you're on the road.

A better suggestion is to simply use areas that don't close at night. I don't know how much national forest you have nearby, but you can always go into those areas. If you're training for Rogaine's, you don't need an O-map, so you can train anywhere.

The place where I've been running in the dark most often is across the street from my house, in a combination of private land (held by a homeowners' association), and Lunenburg Town Forest. The "offcial types" for the latter would be, I suppose, the town Conservation Commission, and I'm not afraid of them, particularly since I'm the vice-chairman of said commission. I've also run in Townsend State Forest, but the officials don't often show up there -- it's managed by the same office as Willard Brook, and they have a whole lot of property to worry about. I guess I've done Groton Town Forest as well, though coming in from the Ayer side, where nobody is going to see me coming across the defunct railroad bridge. I agree with Eric that avoiding official parking areas is probably a good idea. And Jimmy is right that a night runner can easily be elusive!

Traveling on foot doesn't require an HID as much as biking does. But a good light is certainly a good thing. I'm using a homebrew system now that set me back only about $20, but works really well. You can get a good light without spending hundreds of dollars.

JJ, you should write up a how-to article explaining how you made your lamp and post it here.

I haven't had any trouble with officials, but park police often stop me and ask what I'm doing. I think Mary was stopped because they thought she might be illegally hunting deer, when really she was running a night O' course.

I mostly worry about meeting critters when I'm navigating at night. I've never thought about the police! Around here, it's mostly skunks and porcupines in the dark - nothing serious, as long as the dogs aren't with me. In the 2005 North American Rogaine Champs, Bent's team and our team each encountered a bear hanging around a different control. Now there's something that can *really* throw off your pace count for a little while!

Actually, I'm liking isabel/barb's comments. Der's critters in dem dar woods, and under the right conditions, the smallest of them can rustle like a large one.

My impressions from my limited night woods running experience is that if it's wet, be prepared for a lot of glare back from wet leaves that can really mess up your pupil dilation. You're running along with your light shining on the ground at a reasonable distance and your eyes are adjusted to that, then a low wet bunch of leaves right in fronf of your face reflects the full blast of your light into your eyes and - instant pupil contraction. Just like walking into a dimly lit room from full sunlight - you're going to stumble over something.
Also running in a light mist or fog creates some cool visuals from the head lamp reflection - I remember that from the Maine Night-O back on 2004.

XC skiing at night with a head lamp is very cool, good balance training and adjusting your depth perception as you get different reflections back from different snow conditions.
I set out the controls for the 2d day of the US Ski-O Champs a couple years back at about 10 pm. Partial moon, about -10F (-23C), no wind, perfect snow conditions. Was looking for the reflection from beady eyeballs out for a late night snack, but didn't see any of them.

I do remember being able to feel the temperature changes as I dropped down into the low lying areas along a stream - a combination of actually lower temps and a higher humidity from the stream that made it feel colder.

I recently figured out that I have web space that I can use, and I think that the hatlamp would be an excellent thing for me to put on there, as soon as I figure out how to do that. And I'll link to it from here.

The animal I'm most concerned about encountering in the dark is definitely the skunk.

In fog, you don't want a headlamp. You want a light that's far away from your eyeballs (just like foglights on a car are mounted under the bumper). Take the headlamp off and hold it in your hand down by your thigh. I learned this when doing a Rogaine in Nova Scotia with Joe Brautigam, and each of us commented on how the other's light seemed much more effective than our own.

How do you keep from blinding yourself from glare while looking at the map?

Ah, this triggers a further note. There are some combinations of headlamps (halogen yellow), hi-lighters, and map colourations that just don't work all that well together. I've found that LED bulbs throws a better white light when map reading but they don't throw their light far when searching for features (so I'd recommend you have a multi-lamp) - and I tend to stay away from yellow hi-lighters if I'm marking up my map.

O.K. no more secrets - especially if I plan to defend my NARC title:-)!

The big Silva headlamps (http://www.silva.se/orienteering/index.htm) that all the Scandis use seem to be fine for just about everything - unless you run into a tree and get the thing knocked off your head in a mass start race.... But that sort of thing never happens.

I use two lights - a standard headlamp (e.g. Myo5 or similar) that has LEDs for reading the map and a stronger light for travelling through the woods. In a backpack pocket, I also carry a NiteRider Storm HID light that is equivalent to 40W. It's only supposed to last for 4 hours, but I only take it out when I really want to light up the countryside, so it has lasted through the night in two rogaines.

A friend of mine, who has been very successful in rogaines, wears a headlamp to watch where he's putting his feet, and also carries a flashlight, which he keeps focussed on the object that he has taken a bearing on.

Don't hold the map up in front of your face. Tilt your eyeballs down, and keep the map in the fringe of the beam. Takes some practice.

We have night-O events here in Calgary all winter. Mostly in city parks (fortunately we don't have to worry about the cops). I would echo the comments about a good light. I use a Nightrider Cyclone, an HiD light with 50 watts equivalent and four LEDs which can be switched to for map reading or conserving the battery. It is very easy to spot controls with my light (you have the also have the added advantage of being able to temporarily blind your competition by shing your light in their faces, which usually results in them running off in the wrong direction!). Seriously though, it is good training for non-visual means of navigation, and it often seems that some legs are actually faster at night as you don't get distracted.

Barb,

b. 1997...younger than you appear...

Play a lot of Catching Features in Night-O mode.

My 2 cents...

In fog or mist (or sometimes even in the clear,) you can run with your headlamp strapped around one forearm and held near your waist. Last April I ran a terrible thick Fog-O at about 8 PM and had no other option if I wanted to see anything. Too much reflection directly in front of my eyes.

Second, if there's any way you can find out the reflectivity of the controls ahead of time, it can definitely affect your light preference. At one extreme, the aforementioned Fog-O had normal orange-and-white controls with nothing reflective. That was hard and required precise navigation. On the other extreme, the PTOC night rogaine last March had wooden blocks wrapped with red and white reflective tape - visible from >50m if you wiggled your light back and forth (the open woods helped with that, of course.) I did well with nothing more than a Black Diamond 2-LED headlamp.

For reading the map, a headlamp with a diffuser or wide angle lens (like the Petzl Myo XP) can be a good option too.

With all due respect to JJ, Spike, and Boris, you guys are living in the past. The situation reminds me very much of cycling in the late 80's. The top pros viewed the aerodynamic handlebars as an absurd piece of triathlon equipment. An accomplished cyclist should know how to stay in an aerodynamic position without such cheap devices. The fact that triathletes were routinely riding the cycling portion of their events at speeds faster than pro TT's didn't really sink in. Then Greg Lemond beat Laurent Fingon to win the Tour on the final stage. Suddenly, everybody had to have the bars.

The top orienteers seem unduly wed to the objectively inferior halogen lights. The fact that adventure racers are starting to turn in elite level performances at night (witness Kloser/Tobin at 2004 worlds) should be ample evidence that the HID lights are a real competitive advantage. Sooner or later, a halogen light at a night event will be as rare as drop handlebars at a cycling TT. Until then, if you want an advantage, it can be purchased for not much more than the travel price to and from the event.

As for not blinding yourself, I mount my HID on my wrist and wear an LED headlamp. That way I can read the map without any pupil adjustment. Also works well for fog.

Big light on the arm - sweet idea, Eric! Do you mind me asking how much your setup cost? I cobbled together an HID for last year's AR at considerably less cost than the kits specifically sold for biking. It has a Li-ion battery instead of the normal NiMH, which I understand has better recharge characteristics and cold weather performance.

The Li-ion is definately the way to go. Just the weight savings is worth it for adventure racing. David and I both use a Light&Motion HID with a Li-Ion battery. Lasts about 4.5 hours on low beam (which is still like a 45W halogen). If I'm doing an all-night race, I borrow another battery (the L&M setup is pretty popular around here). Altogether it was something like $400. Light & Motion has also started selling a larger battery that's supposed to go 6 or 7 hours. Yvonne just got that.

Jeff & Carrie Sona use a Night Rider HID/Li-ion kit that burns longer, but I don't really care for the way the beam is focused. I'm not sure what theirs costed but it's in the same range.

Eric---I've wondered about just what you wrote about, but I see it differently. Unless HID lights come down in cost, then they represent both (1) a barrier to entry, and (2) an advantage over halogen. If people start winning with HIDs, then one of two things will happen. (1) Everyone will buy HIDs, or (2) HIDs will be considered an unfair advantage, plus a barrier to entry, and consequently outlawed or otherwise controlled by rules changes. My thought is that it's *Night-O", not "Simulated Daylight O", so there has to be some limit to keep it fair. I consider the current 20W limit as the accepted standard for fairness and the cost of the current halogen systems as the accepted barrier to entry. To use your cycling aerobar analogy, don't non-time trial events (i.e., events with a peloton) outlaw aerobars for safety? (And just to be clear: My reading of the current rules is that 20W is the limit, so a 13W HID, which is brighter than 20W halogen, is actually within the rules. But I think that's currently just a loophole waiting to be closed.)

Eric, you may be totally right about HID lamps and they may come to be the standard for both orienteering and ROGAINing, but a single win by a pair of adventure racers at a ROGAINE, only a third of which (or so) was at night hardly seems like compelling evidence for this. Of course, I would be totally willing to try an HID lamp - I like trying new things - but do you have more compelling evidence that it provides competitive advantage?
(Even if it did, though, I wouldn't consider switching since the point of the sport is not "who has the best gear", but "who is the best orienteer".)

regarding the competetive advantage argument, I like my 20W halogen, but since it makes navigation easier than a weaker headlamp, it seems logical to assume that an even stronger HID would make navigation even easier.

having said that, I usually switch mine between 10/20w when training and racing depending on how thick the forest/weather is, how far I want to see, and how stealthy I think I need to be.

if the forest is thick, then the extra brightness doesn't always help you see further, which is where the advantage comes from, I think.

Geez, with some of this hardware, is it really night O anymore? Does anyone know if the USOF 20W limit rule has ever been enforced (actually, come to think of it, as chair of sanctioning, I'm also in charge of enforcing rules -- I guess I need to set up a power meter tent next to the doping tent ...)

In any case, where are you people buying this stuff? The fare at my local REI is quite wimpy, and I guess I've never been enough into night O to dig further (of course, with my lamp, it really hasn't been that enjoyable ...)

On the LED front, I am now using a headlamp with three 4 watt leds off a li-ion battery. This has tested at 24 hours continuous low power, and 3 hours at max power on the battery pack which weighs 12 oz. Max power is much brighter than any halogen light I have used. Light assembly was custom produced by Atlas Devices (bomfunk).

I got what I imagine is the same sort of thing as Spike, Kenny, and Boris -- the big Silva. I frankly can't imagine that there is something better out there. From my perspective, these things are darn awesome.

I suppose a car analogy may be apt. I feel like I have the 911 Turbo of lights. Pricey, yes, but a very well engineered piece of equipment that is every day drivable. Now, I could spend 8x this and get a Veyron or the like and exceed the 911 in most performance respects -- at least on paper. But, why? I could never actually drive faster than I could in my 911, nor would it make me a better driver.

So, maybe there are things that throw more light. But the fact of the matter is I will only ever be so good at Orienteering or running (or driving around twisty roads.) My Silva is perfectly suited for my limitations. People with less limitations may benefit from better light.

(My analogy doesn't take fuel economy into consideration -- which is the only shortcoming I see to these Silvas. But, as I never want to do night ) for more than 2.5 hours, I don't care about longer battery life.)

My partner and I won the 2005 NARC with only the Mity 5's or equivalent. No HID. My background is in AR's (somewhere around 15 expedition length races to date) and I haven't switched to a HID yet (well for biking I do). I don't move fast enough to warrant it in my books.

If someone gave me one, I'd use it I guess.

I don't think Kloser/Tobin won that Rogaine because they had brighter lights than everybody else (I have no idea what they were using). It's possible that the snakemaster and the zombie had better lights, but a fat lot of good it did them. I was using a wimpy Petzl Duo at that point, and there was precisely once when I wanted more firepower (and I doubt it cost us more than a minute or two).

I also don't think that I could have done last summer's Night-O Champs any faster if I had had a different light. Even with the open terrain, I used my low beam most of the time, and switched to the 20W halogen narrow spot only to look at distant things, or to search for control reflectors. In leafy woods, as Kenny points out, you very quickly run into a limit where more power doesn't do you any good.

I do have an HID, but I haven't used it for night-O, in part because the battery is too heavy. It's a completely different situation on a bike, where the speeds are higher.

Kloser & Tobin wrote a narrative about their first rogaining experience - the 2004 World Rogaine Champs, which they won. It begins: "We felt like complete rookies at registration buying two thumb compasses, borrowing a whistle and asking whether we needed to stop in at night." They left immediately after the race because they had no idea that they'd won!

I know their team uses very powerful lights for night biking because of the speed and risk, but I don't remember seeing them use monster lights during treks in televised adventure races. It isn't practical to use heavy, expensive rechargeable batteries during long races, so most racers learn to love lightweight, less powerful headlamps for trekking. Having said that, I still like to carry my HID light in a rogaine, but only for occasional use.

The Kloser/Tobin rogaine narrative is at: http://www.rogaine.tucsonorienteering.org/Kloser&T...

cedarcreek: you point out the important issue - as it stands now, a light is rated (and thus regulated) by watts of battery draw, not foot-candles (or lumens or whatever) which would more properly measure its usefulness for night navigation. So HID lights may be an advantage now, but I would expect regulations to be put in place for night-O, e.g., a 20 foot-candle limit or the like. I'll 100% with randy that it just doesn't seem like night-O with one of those "portable suns" (as my AR teammate calls it.)

Boris: I can certainly believe that the Silvas are no better than HID in a well-set, well-mapped night-O (on a 10K or 15K map), but I firmly believe they do offer a competitive advantage in rogaine/AR type races.

Since those races are often done with 24K and up maps of generally poorer quality, the more light you have the better. The HID can save time wandering around in a control circle on an indistinct feature. That said, a big disadvantage is that shining around a light with that amount of power can broadcast your location to every other team within a 1/4 mile. Especially if teams are stacked up or if there's a mass start, I do prefer to navigate more with a low powered lamp using the HID only when necessary.

Well, the latest postings have convinced me: it's 1987 all over again! Hey, I don't care, use whatever light you want.

I am curious as to why an HID light would be regarded as a barrier to entry. Nobody thinks a decent bike is a barrier to entry for MTBO, even though you can get much cheaper ones that don't work well. I think in any sport there is a minimum level of equipment, below which you suffer a significant competitive advantage. I don't think putting that bar at $400 is particularly onerous.

While I do believe that HID lights are an advantage, it's certainly much more like night-O with a halogen than day-O. A better navigator will win, even with the inferior light, but with two roughly equal navigators, the light could make the difference. I estimate an HID is worth around 5 minutes per hour at night for me. I train enough without the HID, that I think that estimate is pretty accurate. It would probably be worth less for someone better than me.

Finally, while it's true that the top AR folks don't use HID's in multi-day races due to the aforementioned problems with batteries, there's no question that they have become pretty standard equipment for the top teams for events of 1-day or less.

It sounds like for the price of a HID lamp you can get both a Silva Halogen lamp, a copy of Catching Features and one of those MIT $100 laptops.

For the people who use HID headlights, do you have problems with the light going out when it gets jarred?

We've had issues with HID lights in the rain, etc. and the batteries for our Nitrider Storms weigh a ton.
These HIDs are 10W. In the last rogaine I brought a 9W LED, which was not quite as bright, but the battery pack was 1/3 the weight and the light can run several days at lower power, while the HID is about 4 hours per battery pack.
The HID's equivalent to 40W halogen, the LED probably about 20W.
Actually, I'm really happy with my Princeton Tec Apex headlamp, which is a 1W- 3W LED. It would probably be sufficient for much of the nav at a Rogaine, just needing the big HID for distance spotting.

Li-Ion batteries are the only way to go for HID. 1 pound of batteries gets you through the night on low beam. Still a lot heavier than the LED setup, but if you are only having the lead navigator use one, it's not that big a deal.

HID's are breakable. I broke the bulb on mine when I wrecked on the bike. You do need to have a backup. Also, if the bulb gets too cold (for example, if you roll the boat in cold water) that can make it go out for a while. It usually comes back on in a couple minutes after something like that. I've never had trouble with mine in the rain as the lamp generates enough heat to keep itself on.

I have a feeling that high power Luxeon LEDs will make halogens go the way of the dodo. Once they get 12W Luxeons in production, you'll get almost as much light as an HID on full power, but at 1/2 power you'll get 5X the battery life or more. Also a really long bulb life and not very breakable, finicky or fragile. My 9W LED is a somewhat bulky array of 3X3W luxeons, and I run it on Lithium disposable batteries in multiday races. It's infinitely dimmable.

Any insight on when said LED's will come to market? I haven't seen any of the normal channels making much noise about them.

Well, the 3W reached the dental market (cordless curing lights) 2 years ago, and the outdoor market this year. The 5W are in the dental field right now, and I think there is one bike light with 2 of them so far, but the 12W is still not out there yet.

I'm using a 5W Luxeon Star on my hatlamp (although I'm not yet driving it at full power). I haven't heard any news about higher power LEDs than that. Even with the 5W, proper heatsinking gets to be an issue. Unlike incandescent bulbs, LEDs don't do well when they run hot.

The Princeton Tec Apex headlamp has a nice built-in heatsink, but it would have to be a lot bigger to sink for a 12W.

Seems like the 12W would work nicely on the bike, where the mount could be effectively used to transfer heat to the handlebars/frame. Not really sure how you get good heat disapation on top of you head - I don't really want to mount big cooling fins on my temples.

My bigger concern with LED's (which may have been addressed - I haven't looked seriously at them for the past year) is the way the beam is focused. Halogen and HID bulbs work nicely with parabolic mirrors to give a very long throw. Because the actual light source of the LED is more diffuse, it seems that manufactureres have had a more difficult time focusing the beam. Again, that comment may be out of date.

There are LEDs with a side-emitting pattern (aka "batwing") that kick most of their light out to the side rather than forward, which makes them very suitable for use with a parabolic reflector. The other advantage of a bicycle is that you can get significant airflow over the heatsink due to the higher speed, particularly at the times when you most want to be running at high power for a bright light.

When I use my 3 x 4W led's at full power, the finned alumunum housing gets too hot to comfortably touch. It's ok for short bursts, but when it warms up to the touch I know I'm blowing thru the battery pack pretty fast (<3 hours). The led's are focused nicely and project about 100m.