Discussion: Strength Training (Weights)

I have never really gotten into lifting weights because I much prefer to build muscles through more relevant activity such as running and biking hills and playing basketball and volleyball. However most of my friends on the Cross-Country team at College all lift, and I have noticed a fair number of Attackpointers logging strength training as well. I was just wondering if someone could give me some specific advice on why lifting might be beneficial, and how to do it right.

I would like to avoid putting on any extra muscle weight that isn't relative for Orienteering, so I figured asking the Attackpoint crowd for advice would be better than asking my competitive running friends to teach me. The last thing I want to do is injure myself or wear myself out so that I can't train properly for a period.

However, if I can continue to get the same benefits through other, more natural activities I would much prefer to avoid the weight room completely. What do you guys recommend?

The other Attackpointers may have other goals in mind than just orienteering performance. I did see a good picture of Simone Luder doing one legged squats, so it must have its place though.

Here are a couple of articles that might be of help:
To Lift or Not to Lift That is the Question

Weight Training for Runners

Had a long answer that I loathe to retype so the quick answer is -

For me yes, cuz:
1: Injury prevention
2: Athleticism (I enjoy a lot of activities)
3: Increased power output (paddling, biking, etc.)
4: In my mid 30's so it's nice to have shape:-)

Cross-country runners lifting weights? What's that coach smoking?

For pure running, you want to be as light as possible. While lifting doesn't necessarily increase mass, it usually does.

Lifting definately has a place if you are doing non-weight bearing sports. I think it also has some value for orienteering in thicker and/or steeper terrain. I'd say it make some sense to add if you are already tapped out on your running (that is, any additional running would be overtraining), but probably not a good trade if it replaces running.

I think it's essential for adventure racing, but David Frei doesn't do it and he's at least as good as me, so there's room for debate there as well.

When I was in sprint, it was everyday's routine, for 30-45 min. - weights, medical ball, and etc.

Read this:
Strength Training Article
My wife wrote it for ONA a few years back. If the link is broken email me and I will send it to you in Word.

I do arm and shoulder work, and swear by it. Tho I can't claim a causal relationship, I've personally correlated performace improvement with the weight training. I don't do any leg or chest work.

At the time, I googled "weight training" and "running", and found alot of support, tho could not vouch for the sources.

The bottom line is that I feel it helps me.

Get a book or trainer for proper technique. I think it is easy to injure yourself with improper technique.

Thanks for the interesting articles and advice.What I am hearing is that weights could be beneficial for running, but not significantly enough to warrant any kind of real recommendation. Also, it seems that it is possible to get the same benefits from more natural activities like running hills, which is what I had always felt.

I think I will continue to avoid the weight room and pump up the incline on the treadmill instead when I am feeling jittery.

As far as I can tell, the top guys in my club don't do any lifting, but a lot of core strength stuff, as well as flexibility training, ab strength, back strength, and leg strength exercises.... and also gympa.
I am not quite sure what lifting weights would accomplish with respect to orienteering specifically.

I'm no expert, but the evidence seems to point toward doing some strength training in addition to "natural activities" like running, although it doesn't have to be lifting weights, which was the original question in this thread.

Without checking my notes from our recent training camp, I think Holger and Sandy Hott-Johansen said they do two 90-minute strength sessions each week. In addition to the kinds of things that Boris mentions, they were doing a few upper body exercises that had been recommended by the coach, although they weren't convinced of the value of those.

At a recent running analysis clinic we attended, we were told that runners should do some upper body work since the arms are key in driving the body forward. In orienteering (at least my orienteering), the arms are also useful for dangling from trees as I plunge down steep slopes, etc.! ;-) In the same running clinic, during the video analysis, the expert was able to point out people whose running style indicated insufficient core strength.

As for leg strength, one of the goals is to try to balance the strength of different muscles, e.g. women tend to rely far too much on their quads while running/biking, and not enough on their hamstrings, so specific strength exercises (as opposed to just doing the sport) are a good way to strengthen hamstrings so they are more likely to be used in the sports. One of the reasons to aim for balanced muscle strength is to make things easier on your joints. In my case, I now have to do leg strength exercises because of cartilage problems in my knee. For orienteering, there is also benefit to strengthening muscles around the ankle to prevent sprains.

If you want to go in the weight room, it is safer to use the machines and not the free weights. The machines help you to keep proper form. I did weights for a while, started with little weight and many reps, more like endurance instead of weight and increased gradually. It was fun for a while and I got energized from it.

But, as you mention, I prefer the real thing: Running in the woods, hill intervals, running in powder snow or sand.

Or snow shoveling or double digging garden beds, that is upper body strength training, too.

I remember the running wonder kind Alan Webb (he broke the high school mile record) saying that he did too much weight training for a while. He added too much muscle and it was counterproductive for him.

I saw Alan Webb and thought he has some pretty good arms for a distance runner.

I was on a weights kick for a while in the mid-90s. I did a lot of machines, especially leg stuff, both strength and endurance sets. At the same time, I was doing lots of track intervals and some hills. It seemed that the weights made me a strong hill runner, since I could run up a lot of hills that others walked, but they also made me feel a bit uncoordinated and sluggish. I now don't do weights, but I think it's a good idea to do some strength work: form drills, bounding, hills, core strength (which I get pretty well currently from kayaking). So to sum things up, John, I think you're on the right track.

If you do decide to lift (and I'm a big proponent of lifting - I just don't think it helps distance running any), I'd strongly suggest free weights over the machines. Much of the "sluggish uncoordination" that Mr. Bone talks about is avoided with free weights. The machines are designed to isolate muscles. That has some merit, but it removes the need to get the muscles to work in harmony, which is how you actually use them.

Yes, free weights are better because they're less isolating. (When I was lifting a lot, I used machines because they are convenient, safer, and do not require a spotter/partner.) An issue with all weight training is that the neuro-muscular training is also speed-specific, so if you lift slowly, your muscles will become accustomed to contracting slowly, which is fine for your abs, but less fine for your quads, calves, hip flexors, etc., if you are interested in running.

Hey john,
I've had problems in my knees during runs, especially long ones on the road, ever since i started seriously running in sophomore year high school. In college, with teaching some aerobics toning classes, my knee problems have completely gone away. i attribute it to strenghtening the quadriceps, which are generally not strenghtened enough during running. running relies mostly on the hamstrings, between the two muscles. i recommend lunges and squats only for working the quadriceps. don't mess around with any of that knee extension business on the machine. it's not a natural motion that your legs will ever have to do. also the quadriceps work eccentrically (stretching against resistance-like when you're squatting down, quads are stretching, braking the squat) during walking/running, not concentrically (muscle shortens against resistance-like on the knee extension). in order to make your squats more of a power move, you can incorporate a jump into it: squat down, spring up, jumping up; land; squat again; jump off the ground.
you can also do step ups onto a bench--hold a barbell/dumbells on shoulders, step up onto a bench, back down, step back up, back down.
as was said before, i only recommend free weights, it's more of a natural motion...even better than free weights, try to use your own body weight. so, instead of bench press, do pushups, instead of triceps with the weight, do tricep dips off a bench.
one of the purposes of strenght training is to prevent injury, so as long as you do it properly, you won't get injured. check out proper form for exercises online, don't do too many reps, or too few (between 8 and 15: less than 8 builds muscle mass, more than 15 can cause overuse injury). also you need to make sure that you're lifting enough weight. when people say that they're doing low weight and high reps (ok, 20 at the very most)-that doesn't mean you should be doing the exercise with 3 lb dumbells. the only way you're going to build strenght is by pushing the muscles to exhaustion. So, when doing 15 reps, reps 13,14, 15 should be hard to do, and when you're done, you should need a little recovery time b/c your muscles are tired. as far as sets, i only do 1 set of each exercise, because i think it's better to do a variety of exercises, rather than focus on repeating specific ones.
i'd reccommend for the legs: squats, lunges, individual calf raises (1 leg at a time-builds balance);
hip: work all the ranges of motion: adduction, abduction, hip extension, hip flexion;
core: crunches, situps, rotating crunches, back extension, back rotators; there are lots more you can do here, just keep the back and abs even, dont' neglect one or the other
upper back/chest: bent over flys, bent over rows, pushups
shoulders: all the ranges of motion: sholder flexion, bent over shoulder extension, shoulder lateral raises
arms: bicep curls, tricep dips
that's just a rough idea of a total body workout. just google the exercise names for pictures of the exercise performed. you can trust most sites that are backed by some organization, like kinesiology/physiology something.
i enjoy strenght training a lot, it keeps me pain free and i feel like my posture is better. i do about 100 mins a week totaly body and 90 mins a week abs, glutes, and thighs-while teaching.
i could write more, let me know if you have any questions.

I've heard that bit about contraction rates, but I'm not sure I buy it. I've watched the great cycling sprinter Nelson Vails squat 700 pounds (which is a slow contraction, even for him) and also seen him crack off 200m @ 230 RPM's on rollers (the world record at the time). Seems that a wide range of speeds is possible without compromising either end.

Wow Vicky. It sounds like they're learning you something over at that college of yours. Or is this all stuff you learned on your own? You should start writing articles about this for ONA. I am sure tons of people would be interested in reading it. Then you can publish a collection of them in book form :)

I am glad to hear that you recommend lifting body weight over free weights or machines. That is what I have always felt is the most natural and safe. My main problem is that I am too lazy to stay dedicated to any kind of strength traininig program. That is why I love playing other sports for cross-training. Every sport strengthens slightly different muscle groups, and for Orienteering that is very helpful since you utilize so many more muscles than when you are just straight running. Lately I've been taking advantage of the intramural program at my school and playing on as many teams as I can sneak onto. So far it is working great, but unfortunately I won't always have this kind of opportunity so I may have to learn how to do more strength training in the future.

Thanks for the excellent suggestions. I'll see if I can work it all into a nice, rounded workout program.

ebuckley: I've heard that bit about contraction rates, but I'm not sure I buy it.

I'm not sure, either, but I have two pieces of information that support the hypothesis:
1. My own experience. (anecdotal, but specific)
2. physiological research shows time after time that the body's training response is very stimulus-specific, which is to say you get good at doing what you train at. (scientific, but non-specific)

I am not aware of any supporting evidence or research that is both scientific and specific to this question (although there may be some; I just haven't looked).

ebuckley: I've watched the great cycling sprinter Nelson Vails squat 700 pounds (which is a slow contraction, even for him) and also seen him crack off 200m @ 230 RPM's on rollers (the world record at the time).

This does not help answer the question of whether slow contraction training leads to quick contraction ability. It does show that Nelson Vails is an extraordinary athlete, and one who happened to have at least two possibly related talents.

ebuckley: Seems that a wide range of speeds is possible without compromising either end.

I hope so, because I'm trying to train for sprint orienteering and adventure racing at the same time. ;-) I fear some compromises will result, however. My approach to mitigate the damage to my orienteering performance is to do only low-to-moderate volumes of cycling and kayaking training. Also, my running training this year is much better than last, so far.

I suppose I could have been clearer. I'm not suggesting that training slow contractions makes you fast, just that it's possible to train slow contractions and still be fast (by training fast stuff as well). And there's certainly no better way to build true strength (as in, increase the maximum force the muscle can exert) than slow contractions.

Strange thing about adventure race training and shorter distance speed. A few years ago I started taking the 24-hour distance (both O and AR) seriously. My 10K time went in the tank. Then, for no apparent reason, it came back. I'm at around 39 minutes right now which is exactly where I was four years ago. Just one data point and probably biased by a confounding factor - but I don't know what that factor could be.

Excellent series of posts, particularly Viktoria!

I think you can't be too strong, and that strength training can only help you, as long as you don't do exercises improperly in a way that can injure you, and you maintain balance in strengthening competing muscle groups.

I've been around long enough to see the CW about weight training as it applies to athletes in different sports get debunked over and over. I remember when basketball players, baseball players, swimmers and golfers were all advised against weight training because it was thought they would get too bulky and not have adequate flexibility. Weight training is pretty near universal for these athletes now, and has been shown to enhance performance without exception. I can't imagine a good weight training program would not be beneficial to orienteers.

I wouldn't worry about putting on weight as long as you keep running, and don't increase caloric intake exponentially. Body builders eat something like 6000 calories a day. There will be some variation by body type, but the kind of strength training you might do as an orienteer presumably wouldn't involve 700 lb squats, for example, and would not involve substantial weight gain. If you did gain 5 lbs of lean muscle mass, it would only make you faster.

Definitely free weights are preferable, because of their ability to recruit different muscle groups. Viktoria's ideas about using your own body weight are excellent though. I agree that it would be great if she could write some of this for ONA.

I agree with Charlie - esp about the great piece by Viktoria. Well done and thanks.

Another interesting thread today... I do O and AR, though with a bothersome knee I'm not that competitive at O lately as I've been walking the courses.

As for strength training, here's my take on it. I did most the courses towards my Personal Trainer's cert, but did not finish as I changed my focus.

For AR, it's pretty much a given that weight training is required. I do not train to build muscle mass as much as to train for strength and endurance. I typically work with light-ish loads and high reps. For my upper body I use free weights and attempt to keep my muscles in balance as much as possible.

For core and lower body, I use "real world" activity as well as rowing and stationary exercises. I am a big believer in doing things outdoors, but with winter and work getting in the way, I often train in the evening so it's nice to have indoor stuff to do.

My knee issue I believe to be related to out of balance quads due to inappropriate exercise volumes of specific exercises. It's quite important when one does many sports, or a lot of just one sport, to maintain balance in the legs to prevent tightness, looseness and even joint tracking issues.

I also used to swim competitively years ago, before the days of doing free weights as part of my program. And I can tell you now, that since I do free-weights regularly, that I can jump into a pool (after having not been in one for years) and knock off more than 3000m with ease. The only issue being one of repetitive motion over time. Did it, proved it, and am happy with the results.

I guess the thing is to try it out for a period of time and see if it's helping you. I've found that almost any kind of athletic activity has a certain cross-over to the sports I partake in (trail running, paddling, mountain biking, hiking, hill climbing and the like).

My college XC team lifted weights well into each season. I found it very beneficial. The weights coach from track team set up the program. It was all free weights and slow repetions.
Benefits:
strenght and power: XC training has lots of distance, and some speed and hill work. weights complement speed and hill work.
flexibility and muscle balance: weights can be used to work the full range of muscles, and you can work muscles like hamstrings that do not get their fair share of work while running
Confidence: After some good weight workouts you feel stronger, (and presumably are) so attack the hills, pass with authority, and kick expecting to win

I would think that weights are even more important for orienteering than XC. The uneven terrain, changes of direction, climb, objsticles and varying speeds put a lot more strenght demands on the body than running with a smooth even pace and working the kills and outkicking your competiors.

I used to quite a few weights, but its never really worked for me and now I just do a few free weight at home.

From what I gather the justification for strength training for a runner is to improve the muscle efficiency of every muscle so that it uses less oxygen and has improved endurance. This means that more oxygen can be used by the legs rather than being wasted by muscles which aren't helping you go faster, so you feel less tired.
I find that the best way to achieve this is by doing a circuit traning class every week, as it includes many muscles which are not excercised during other training activities (make sure you do one with lots of core strength included)

Free weights are definatly better as they work the core muscles at the same time, which is important for an efficient running style.

The only benefit I ever found for lifting heavy weights was to build calf muscle which really hlped on the hills. There are better ways of achieving this as mentioned earlier. I've always found cycling to help with hill climbing ability too.

Essentially I'm saying is keep your non-leg muscles toned and don't ignore core strength (1 session a week comliments your other training much better that 1 more running session).

Cycling for endurance is really good. When I was running ultras I was spending several hours a day biking in the hills, and only running 30-35 miles a week. Good for strength and endurance, and much easier to recover from.

This is my first post on Attackpoint. I am a novice orienteer, having participated in only a half dozen or so events over the last few years. I follow a training program called CrossFit, and I highly recommend it to those considering adding a strength component to their training. CrossFit is highly effective at increasing one's strength to weight ratio, with limited mass gain.

Orienteers seem not so much strange as more intellectual than the average crowd. As such, I expect many of you will be able to garner some valuable training information from the CrossFit website. There is a lot of information on its pages and in its message board. I hope some of you find this worthwhile.

Regards,

Patrick