Discussion: No Australian men selected for WOC

The first time since 1972 that Australia has failed to send a full team to WOC. Do you think the IOF will take any notice?

I think Australia is quixotically alone in its back-to-every-two-years WOC quest. I wonder why Orienteering Australia keeps failing to realize that.

No, the lack of men's team is (at least officially, and I think in reality) because nobody who nominated for selection was deemed likely to qualify for an A final, which is the minimum selection criterion. There is a full women's team. http://www.orienteering.asn.au/news/?ItemID=4334

candyman, why would the IOF care?

I'd be more concerned about whether Australians would take any notice...

@ Tundra - I'm not sure if that is true! I was at the presidents conference in Kiev in 2007 and quite a large number of federations where against the "every year" champs! Notably, however, was that those that were for it obviously are the ones who carry the weight!

aren't you tempted Candyman???

We wouldn't want to not send a team in the years before World Games (eg 2008, 2012) because of the qualification rules. If we had sent no men's team last year, then Julian and Simon maybe wouldn't have had the option of preferring the World Games to WOC this year.

I doubt that OA is trying to send a message to IOF about bi-annual WOCs, but I do think that OA's WOC selection criteria, while laudable in ambition, fail to provide opportunities for development through competing at the highest level - especially given Australia's relative isolation and tradition of low representation at World Cup.

Possibly the thinking is that because the women's team is strong, the men will suffer in comparison. I actually think that the women might have inspired some of the men who were in line to be selected. And possibly the absence of a larger team might have a negative effect on the women's performances - let's hope not.

interesting views.

I am concerned that there is a perception the IOF wouldn't care. The IOF should (in my opinion) want to promote a competition with ALL the worlds best elites, and from a maximum number of countires, otherwise a WORLD championships becomes increasingly farcicle (and at its worse can demand less media coverage, and less Olympic potential). The IOF are also aware that Australia argues that the annual WOC puts increasing pressure on our resources - finances and competitors. As orienteering is no where near a professional sport, this means athletes make decisions based on finances, and are also more likely to burn out based on work/training/family demands. In other words, less of the worlds best will compete in any one WOC. NZ has had small attendance for years. The beauty about the Olympics is that everyone focuses on a single event, so the strength of the fields are incredible, and this increases interest from competitors and spectators alike. A bi-annual WOC (and rejuvenated WC in the other years) would begin to put this increased interest back into a struggling (outside a handful of countries) sport.

In discussions about returning to a biennial WOC last year, it became apparent that we had support from some places we weren't expecting it from, but didn't have support from some places we were expecting it from. If we'd pushed it to a vote I think we would have got 30-40% support, but would have lost.

Getting back to the original subject, it's difficult to see what else could have been done - it's not just that we had no likely A finalists, it's that we had no-one who was even close, and only one of the top three candidates was someone young enough to justify taking on development grounds. There's not a lot of point in taking someone in their mid-late 30s like Craig or myself (except perhaps to be the third person in a relay team) to miss the long final by 5-10 minutes (on a good day), whereas if you had a 22-year-old in the same position you might think more about their long-term prospects.

I think to get some reasonable depth back into Australian men's elite orienteering behind Julian and Simon (and Shep if he successfully returns to full fitness), we're probably going to have to wait until the group that's currently 17-18 years old gets to senior level.

good answer FatRat.

It's been noticeable that we hardly hear anything about World Cups these days, and yet I can remember back probably not even 10 years ago and there was much more awareness from us about when World Cups were on and who was running. I haven't really thought about it much, just noticed the difference in awareness. I gather that's partly to do with being force fed WOC every year.

I've never liked the argument that you can send runner to WOC for development. If they want development they should be looking at world cup races and bigger events around Europe, eg Forssa Games, get far more experience before making a complete ass of themselves at a WOC.

FatRat and Tooms make very good points, WOC has become a top nations vs those that can afford to go (and thats not necessary the best from those countries) and in the process has basically killed off what the World Cups use to be and are now a couple of events (9 races, only 2 Longs and no relays), spread out at major nations big events with WOC thrown in. Where is the 'world' in that, obviously money driven when the SwissCup/PostFinance Sprint can be awarded the World Cup final 4 years in a row, 4 years in advance.

I'm not sure about the "likely to qualify for an A Final" criteria. IOF contributes to this with only 45 runners in the final over an 90 minute start window. I think this could be increased to 60 runners, or 80, without making the event too long.

At the last WOC, NZ, Israel and Belgium all had A qualifiers in the Long. In the Middle Julian qualified easily with Simon and Shep missing out by only 2 minutes having made mistakes that would have got them in or a lot closer. Of course I'm aware none of these particular people nominated but I think many of the top Australians can all qualify for an A final and I don't think the selectors have a good enough crystal ball to be able to predict someone's result within 5 or 10 or 20 minutes.

Not taking sides, but wonder what would happen if all countries implemented the same policy?

i think it is probably the right decision not to send a mens team to woc (bryan and ryan were probably the only two with results good enough at the trials to suggest a possible chance of qualifying at woc - but only really in the easter sprint/middle).
however, it is pretty sad that our women will be running for medals(and having a real chance of winning some) while the men sit at home scratching their bums and watching the womens results stream in. i think this is what we should be discussing before we worry about whether or not the iof bats an eyelid at our selection policy. regardless of whether or not julian and simon are busy in august we should still have the depth in this country to field a mens team. but we dont. Why not?

elite orienteering development in this country seems to happen in three distinct phases. for the 12 to 18 year olds there is schools championships, for the 18-20 year olds jwoc and then for the seniors there is WOC. in an endurance sport such as orienteering most guys are not competitive at a senior level until their late twenties. this leaves a period of about five years in which they require further development to reach a level in which they may be competitive at WOC. Although it is a personal choice whether an individual wants to put in the hard training in post jwoc years that is required to become competitive at WOC, i dont think our sport is particularly good at mentoring prospective future WOC athletes through these post jwoc years. Consequently the majority of our talent drops out of the sport after JWOC.

It is all well and good to have a selection policy that only selects only athletes who are realistic chances at WOC, however if there is no real development policy for second tier athletes then it is a farce, and it will be detrimental to our sport in the long run.

Taking the above attitude that "to get some reasonable depth back into Australian men's elite orienteering...we're probably going to have to wait until the group that's currently 17-18 years old gets to senior level" will never return any dividends. the current crop of 17-18 year olds will well and truly have become crude oil before we get six julian dents in the same age bracket still competing into their late twenties.

In my opinion if you are the top few in your country then you should get to compete for it. What other incentive do the elites have if not that?

The Bushrangers is meant to be some sort of developmental vehicle isnt it Ev?

yes, the bushrangers is some sort of a development vehicle and it is a not a bad thing, but it seems to be the extent of our development program.
the bushranges is usually made up of a couple of high end elites who use it as training, a couple of cashed up older blokes (who are still slightly better than the guys in their early twenties) who want to have a holiday to nz and the remaining spots are devoted to a couple of developing younger elites. im not saying thats all bad and it is what it is, but if thats the extent our development program, well, it could be a lot better...

right now, at the same time as we have a very strong male jwoc team, we have more coaches for the mens woc team than we have athletes for the mens woc team (poor rob lewis wont have any other blokes to get pissed with at the woc banquet), to me this indicates something is seriously going wrong with our elite development "program."

Our elite calender is built around the assumption that we cant have competitions in the best months of the year (for orienteering that is) as our elites will be off competing at woc. As we have no male elites at woc this year, there is a substantial hole in the orienteering calendar. This presents us with a really good opportunity to spend the season developing our athletes at home.
maybe we could see some of the resources that would have gone to the mens woc team get put into having some training camps, or something to that effect, this winter.. just an idea

Ev, I agree with you that we are missing some development. Back when I was a lad, the World Cup served this purpose, and it worked well -- you could run in great fields without the pressure of WOC. But the current World Cup structure doesn't allow that, and bushrangers don't quite cut it.

Your idea about putting some of the savings from WOC into some more elite development is a good one -- you should suggest that to the OA Board.

While I would support more development, note that our women's development program is no different to our mens, and this women's team is arguably one of our best ever! So development isn't the only issue. To some extent it is just the cyclical waxing and waning in quality that occurs from time to time.

cheers hoggster, how do i go about putting an idea to the OA board?

I agree with you that there will always be ebb and flow in the quality of our elite field. One of the reasons we should give a boost to our second tier elites is to remove the severity of the inevitable cyclical troughs. it should be our aim as a sport to have a good strong second tier of guys/girls to fall back on in the event of injury or other life commitments preventing our best athletes from running.

if we put in some effort devleoping athletes now in a few years down the track we can use our woc team to get results and hence help to develop the sport further at home, rather than use our woc team as a political tool to press a particular point with the iof.

If we want to be considered a serious sport in this country we should never again be in the position of not sending a mens team.

Send them all an email. Their addresses are all here.

not sure if depth means six julian dents i think depth means a few A qualifiers, but im not becoming crude oil anyway, im going green.

nice one Ev, getting more productive.

historically Andy points out though that the development pathway was better due to the World Cup/WOC years. This also meant that because WC wasnt funded as strongly - there was more money for domestic training camps - which is what you are gettting at. Mind you, there still is money for domestic training camps, and there has been for years. Why there hasn't been one is another question, but I think OA has tried much much harder to ensure development pathways than it is given credit for. Unfortunately, money/resources is an issue, and the annual WOC has put added pressure on this.

I will point out that in practice, OA has failed somewhat (me included) in ensuring an adequate development pathway, but not for lack of trying. I think the athletes should shoulder some of the blame as well though. For instance, there is no active National Elite body that talks over things and puts pressure on the political processes as there was for years.

what happened to the week-long training camps we used to have? one thing I've found hard is getting the technical standard of my orienteering back up to scratch after a couple of years without woc. when you go os you get a nice block of racing and training - international 5 day + woc camp + woc, but unless you're in the team its very hard to afford that kind of trip. We invest heaps of technical training at schools and jwoc level, but qualifying at woc needs a pretty massive step up from that again.
how about a week-long national camp, but get each state to organise a days training to spread the workload a bit?

Good points Ev, I am a big fan of domestic and NZ training camps as a way of developing young juniors, they are fun and they encourage a culture of very hard training. Having that culture of hard training is a huge part of getting from jwoc participant to woc qualifier and in the guys that seems pretty much absent at the moment (apart from a couple of guys). The issue is it is a lot of work to organise those camps and there aren't many people who are willing to spend there holidays organising training camps for others. maybe the runners themselves need to start organising them...?

i understand that a lot of work goes into organising a training camp and no unpaid volunteer should be asked to give up large portions of their holidays to organise one. its unfair and will burn people out.
but, as fatrat has said, we do have a bit of money kicking around, and not sending a team to woc will add to that booty, maybe we could put some of it towards training camps. i know of a few very good coaches in central victoria alone who would probably jump at the chance to be involved in something like that if OA showed them some support or flicked them a few dollars. OA also has a number of paid staff, i dont think it would be unreasonable to ask them to help organise a training camp. we could even use the money to create a paid part time development officer position or something like that(with the primary role being the organisation a couple of training camps).

rob i agree with you that the athletes need to orgnanise some of their own training camps and they should definately be involved in helping organise any training camp they attend. but the problem with leaving athletes to organise their own training camps is that our sport(like most others) is made up of clicky social groups, if training camps are organised solely by individual athletes then inevitably some people are left out (and it becomes the same 3 or 4 friends going on a "training" camp and spending most of the time talking shit down at the pub).
official training camps bring people who may not normally socialise together to train. this creates an atmosphere of inclusion and helps to create a culture of training. even having one of these official camps per year would encourage athletes to more proactice in organising their own training.

Yeah, I wouldn't rely on the paid officers -- they already have way too much on their plate, and all end up working more than they're paid for...

fair point hoggster, but what do you think about the creation of a new domestic development type position, do we have that kind of cash floating around?
my idea of the role would pretty much be to organise a training camp or two in australia

cash is pretty sparse, to be honest. fatrat tried to get more money from states so OA can function better, but that hasn't eventuated yet.

I had the feeling that linked into all of this is that maybe it's difficult to find suitable coaches, either through lack of new ones coming on board, or lack of acceptance by the orienteers themselves. We are all such individuals by nature that it's like herding cats to get everyone to join in camps and activities... "I want to do control picking" "but i want to do relay practice" - - - the only time you please most is an extended training camp, or a camp with a heap of coaches and mutiple activities.

Given that NZ have no women going to WOC I suggest the following:

Australian men come over to NZ every year and compete in our domestic competition as "West Island". If they cant beat Jamie Stewart in a sprint or Darren Ashmore / Carsten Jorgensen in Woodhill, then aint no way they should even be thinking about getting on a plane to Europe.

NZ women fark off to Oz for the NOL competing as the Eighth State. We just got rid of our women prime minister; about time to get rid of some more. When Hanny catches them up if they can stay with her for 500 metres we'll select them. Otherwise burn their passports so they cant come home.

Fatrat - farcicle is spelt farcical. And no, the IOF don't care, and haven't for a long time. The only negative thing about the current strength of the Australian women is it allows IOF to say what they are doing is working.

I'm coming over for Wazza's 50th - any of youz not got an invite gatecrash so I can catch up with y'all

Organised squad camps and the like at the senior level have been sorely lacking in recent years - the weekend we had in conjunction with the Stromlo Running Festival was the first national senior camp of any description for five years. I think lack of personnel is more of a problem than lack of money here.

You do need to put in a high level of commitment to make the transition successfully from juniors to seniors, and you need to be prepared to do it for years on end. One of the reasons why I like the prospects of quite a few of the current JWOC bunch is that they've shown evidence of understanding that level of commitment (and Miss Jones has just shown what can be achieved if you're prepared to put the work in). I don't think I'm being too harsh in saying that we haven't seen the same from many of those who have hit M21 in the last few years, some because injury has stopped them from doing anything more, some for other reasons.

Love the idea cracker, its a pisser

blair, yes the current jwoc team is strong, but there have been many jwoc teams in the past who have been just as strong and have shown the same level of commitment (even if they didnt have attackpoint logs to prove it). the problem is getting the juniors to push through those few years in the wilderness between jwoc and woc.
it is going to be exactly the same problem when this bunch of juniors gets to a senior level.
will they still be your favourites when they (like many young men before them) get to their early twenties and realise its more fun to be out getting pissed and spreading std's than it is to be training flat out trying to be 10 mins behind in a national league race rather than 15mins behind?
im not saying we should mollycoddle them into the woc team, but maybe we could give them a bit more encouragement

my ears are burning...
it seems most of the time there would only be about 3 or 4 of these young seniors in both mens and womens elite, so these small home made training camps wouldnt be much different from an OA developed thing. so why not find a regional experienced orienteer prepared to print off maps and get land access etc. for those 8 or so folks. that could be the OA funded bit as well as cheap accom (which could just be a mates house).
put these training camps on so they precede/follow a major carnival like easter. i think if the athletes meet regularly enough they need not be the longest of camps, two 3 day low budget camps a year would be fantastic i recon.
give the group of athletes a squad, so that:

dialogue betwen athletes is built up.

it doesnt feel to the athletes that they are being neglected.

more experienced elites could lend a hand for a day or so or just talk to the athletes before they head home to try and impart some knowledge.

excellent idea big D

Im on my way up. give me a year or 2 an i will most likely be world champ. unless i follow a girl an miss punch lmao

OA support JWOC teams, bushrangers and the national league, thats a fair bit of support for development if you ask me (2 and half more things than they did in my formative orienteering years).

If we have a gap in the men's ranks at the moment I can't see that OA is responsible for it.

I have no doubt that the training culture isn't the same as it used to be amongst the young blokes. I remember when Mounty Shep were injured they would do their limp intervals and their 2 hour limps. If anyone had a night out they would train extra hard the next morning to sweat the crap out of the body. A load of us put life on hold to move OS to give it a crack. Blair trained for 6 years without a rest day. Jase would run till he spewed every second race. Everyone who ever made a WOC team while I was around has been on the verge of a punch up with each other member of the team and the coach at some stage.

Obviously a lot of that behavior wasn't overly productive. However, it is a sign that there was a reasonable size group of people out there that Orienteering was very important for and worked hard to get better.

Getting the positive sides of that culture back amongst our aspiring men will help fill in that gap.

God it feels good to be old enough to have a rant like that!!

I see what your problem is, you think your JWOC team(s) are strong.

Life on hold? Is that possible?

think yours will be once scotty tom and toby leave 20 novice fly'n?

I never said our was strong, just yours isn't, and has never been as good as you make it out to be (a stand out individual does not make a strong team)

well given that the average age of the team is 18, and we dont have any stand out individuals, i'd say its a promising team. grant has a good point though; can't have grant without rant!
im going to school

One thing to remember is that all members are part of OA - it is not just the board. If you really want something, get out there and make it happen. If you are not comfortable at the national level, then get involved at your state level and have a say.

New concepts like the Southern Cross Elite Series in Victoria are examples of things that can be done without waiting for someone from OA to approve them. This was specifically designed to bring together elites, juniors and coaches from the region regularly and to fast track development of up and coming elites. It is still early days, but fields of up to 20 or 30 runners in the 8 races so far this year is a good start. In reality, this has been like having 4 training camps in the past 3 months, with national coaches and some of the best elites in Australia present.
These concepts could be extended through winter without too much trouble if there is interest and demand from the eilte group.

It is not that long ago that the National League and the Bushrangers did not exist. These are great structures for development post JWOC. Yes, there is more that could be done, but this is where we all need to help - not just rely on one or two board members or paid officers.

The current men's team is weaker than the women at the moment, but the reverse was true only a few years ago. These things do tend to work in cycles.

There are alot of different approaches to our mens WOC selection and to some extent i agree that we should send over a team that will produce the best possible results for Australia. But if that means not sending a team at all then there is something wrong. How else can we reach a level of international competitiveness if we don't give our men the chance to compete.

I've never experienced this level of racing but i can tell that in Italy it will be a step learning curve and the only way i can get it is by competing. Unfortunately Orienteering culture isn't as strong in Aus which is probably one of the reasons we only have a handful of athletes capable of making A finals at WOC. But the way i see it the way to increase this is to take big ev's approach and provide more training and development options for our seniors and juniors and follow Scars opinion and send a team to compete to give them the chance to learn and develop as better more competitive orienteers.

So even if Julian and Simon as possible A final qualifying men from Australia nominated for selection would we have only had them selected? Would there have been others selected to go with them as a mens team?

I think OA made the right decision not to send any men to WOC this year. It was an unfortunate decision but to be honest the selectors had no choice. I would support any young seniors or strong juniors to go and compete in WOC if they showed potential, but sadly this year no one stepped up and took the opportunity. Everyone knew the WOC spots were up for the taking, but no one really put their hand up and showed that they had been putting in that extra effort! We have alot of young senior guys who could make the WOC team in the future if they wanted to put the effort in, but when it comes down to it, like Grant says its the work ethic and how much you want it!
If people showed some glimpses of good results, or some consistently good ones I think they would have been selected, but no one did!

I definitely think that we need more domestic training camps as well to encourage a better training culture, but as the old fellas point out, the development program we have now is better than ever, but that's not to say it couldn't be better, by having more domestic camps and trying to build up events like the Southern Cross Series. (which sounded great, and I wish I'd known about sooner as I would have come down for some good quality racing!)

People might think that some attributes of orienteering are just natural, but I think some people just need to put in the hard work ( E.G. training 100km+ weeks) and you'll get the results. Hopefully combine this with a growing domestic competition/training camps and things will improve.

i think im with grant on this one, but i do like wat ev is saying as well, cause i know that im in the boat of non commiment right now.. thats not to say that everyone is, but i know i am. and it is something that would be good to change cause if the competitiveness spirit gets in there, the team will get stronger, i would think.

i think that the selectors made the right decision. maybe they could have said to a few you can go, but we arent going to financially support you as much as normal. that would still give them the opportunity but would come at a cost.

to answer mouse136 question, i think that if simon and julian were going they would send 1 more, so that there was a relay team.. but i could be wrong.

Jules you may be right about some of the younger seniors not stepping up, but I know some of the older guys put an awful lot of hard training in over the past 18 months to try and make the team because they saw that an opportunity might be there. They weren't helped by some really terrible mapping and course setting at Easter.

At least the guys know now there are probably three spots up for grabs next year!

I think simmo is probably talking about me in particular. I was never really motivated to try to make a WOC team when I was younger partly because the top 6 or so were so far ahead of the rest of us that it didn't seem realistic.

I knew there was an opportunity this year and I tried to increase my training to give myself a chance of taking that opportunity. I probably ended up as the highest ranked of those who nominated but I knew what the selection requirements were and I knew that I hadn't done enough to be a realistic chance of being selected so I have no complaints.

To be honest I would have felt a little embarrased about it if I had been selected because I didn't feel I had reached the standard required and I don't really want to run at WOC without feeling I can make a final. I think I have a fair idea what the required standard is and I still feel more motivated now than when I was in my 20s to try to reach that standard so I'll go away and train harder to try to make it next year.

ahh, superb watching you guys have a crisis while NZ is about to have its best ever mens woc results...fantastic.

I would back up Grants comments, you guys just don't hate each other enough anymore. I have been winding Aussies up for years and apart from a drunk Muzza have in recent years just encountered wet blankets and manhuggers.

and most of you guys are old enough to know not to count your juniors until they hatch. anyone remember the glory days of Richard Bolt, Kirsten Fairfax etc? Your young elites just need to harden the fuck up otherwise we are going to be taking places 3-15 in any A/NZ races for the next generation;-)

Sheps past it.

Looking at the discussion, some good points are made and some bad ones (such as blaming mapping and course setting for non woc selections!). I really think it is a combination of pretty much every point made.

Yes there definitely could be more camps but as pointed out, apart from this, there probably hasnt been a better development structure previously.

The bushrangers is a great concept yet i think a few years ago it kind of lost its glamour when there weren't many ppl vying for selection and some less then desrving runners were picked (myself included). That sort of lead the bushies to being cheapened and i think it almost wasnt seen as a being an honour to run for your country, rather just a trip to nz. It seems though it could be returning to a real development vehicle for guys like ryan, bryan, toph etc.

The athletes really need to look at themselves and yes as said, HTFU and start producing results. Being honest with themselves about how they are going, where they want to be and how they are going to get there. It was great to hear from Craig that he knows he has improved but also knows he still needs to take that next step to get to the woc level. Its funny to hear people getting up and yelling from the roof tops about how ppl are trying hard etc etc when its sounds like they havent spoken to the athlete themselves about how they feel about the situation.

Without giving myself a huge head, i am one of those who really should have been vying for WOC over the last few years. I feel that everything is there for me to have a go, the knowledge and experience from oing for 15years, approachable older elites/retirees for help, a good support structure from OA and quality competition. I am just a fat, lazy prick who cant stay motivated for more than 2 weeks. God knows there have been people trying to get me to train :) Anyway my point is that everything is there if someone is really willing to have go!

And while i didnt agree with the selection policy at first, i do agree with it now.

No disrespect to the current juniors, they do seem to be working hard and pushing each other but dont forget we've hard strong teams in the past decade and where are all those guys now?? We cant just say, wait a few years for the current crop to come through....

And finally how good are the girls going to be at WOC!!! At least we know they are all going to finish too!

hahaha thanks Jamie ;)

i'm trying to get a Kiwi passport, but every pack of cornflakes i open has one of them Star Trek Warp Speed Balls in it. i'll keep eating them cornies so i can have a crack at getting in the NZ woc team next year.

re. floating aimlessly between 'junior elite' and 'WOC potential'

from wikipedia:
Liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold"[1]) is a psychological, neurological, or metaphysical subjective, conscious state of being on the "threshold" of or between two different existential planes, as defined in neurological psychology (a "liminal state") and in the anthropological theories of ritual... In the anthropological theories, a ritual, especially a rite of passage, involves some change to the participants, especially their social status.[3]

The liminal state is characterized by ambiguity, openness, and indeterminacy.[citations needed] One's sense of identity dissolves to some extent, bringing about disorientation. Liminality is a period of transition where normal limits to thought, self-understanding, and behavior are relaxed - a situation which can lead to new perspectives.

People, places, or things may not complete a transition, or a transition between two states may not be fully possible. Those who remain in a state between two other states may become permanently liminal (21SLEDGE)...



RE. training camps; surely it wouldn't be too difficult to self-organise multi-day training camps following major events (keeping in mind the time commitments that people have already given to the events).
I was thinking following the 5days (with or without association with junior camp); I'm sure there are plenty of coaches / elites in the southern highlands area who would want to get involved anyway- atleast I know the ANU aths club would love to host some training.
The 5 days is a particularly good opportunity, as if advertised far enough in advanced, orienteers involved would be forced to spend sometime socialising over NYE; which would hopefully encourage building a tighter - knit (or more violent as proposed earlier?) group of athletes.
There are always some tagalong internationals at the 5 days too...

2 camps a year would be good - especially one mid year in that competition gap whilst all the WOC potentials are overseas and us hacks are left behind. QBIII ?

6 months with time trials either end would be a good motivation to stay committed over the length of the year?

The lack of training camps has been very disappointing and just supports some people's belief that coaching isnt necessary. Surely WOC coaches should be running the camps, so having Rob o/s seems counter productive. Not just nav training but input on periodising training, diet etc

Orienteers need to train like and with athletes not just have casual runs. Training group support is a great motivator too and that is where the Canberra lot do well.

It IS difficult for 21 year old boys to step up for long races. How about they run the same race but have an additional prize category, like U 23, as does xc mt biking, or U25?

I agree that the younger elite men didnt do enough to get the selectors even thinking. Perhaps we should have some qualifying criteria for Jwoc as well, as sometimes we send over people just going for the holiday? Why should the 5th or 6th person just presume they will get an Aussi tracksuit.

sorry yak all comments by people that dont have their name on their log are automatically ignored

however, i kind of see your point re jwoc but it is designed at an all inclusive competition which is why everyone runs everything. The current management team are working very hard to develop a strong, competitive culture with the team and stop those just along for the ride/trip to europe.

When do the junior classes stop in cycling? is it 18 or 20? The last thing orienteering needs is more bloody age classes. Just because someone doesn't get a badge doesn't mean that the structure is wrong!!!