Discussion: IOF gps ban

http://news.worldofo.com/2009/05/25/new-iof-rules-...

What do you think?

Should definitely only apply to elite classes at WRE events. Not sure whether WMOC should be included. Indications are that Orienteering Australia would not extend the ban beyond WRE events - hopefully other national associations would do the same.

I don't quite understand why all the noise against this rule. Compared to old school wrist type units these still allowed logger type of units are equally accurate, more lightweight and cheaper. About same price as SI card, about half the price of O shoes or a good compass. If these units really are allowed rule is not a big deal. All you lose is the display you should not look at anyway and you may have to buy $60 gps unit if fyou don't already have one. You know, it is nothing compared to travelling costs to WRE events.

This rule would not have been ok two years ago when there was no cheap loggers available, but now I think it's may be just fine. GPS unit use has been pretty wild, about time to get some rules. But I would like to see written somewhere these units without displays are allowed unless specifically prohibited by the organiser.

Is there a gps data logger (without display) you can recommend?

Well, try googling reveiws for Gloablsat bt-335, Igot-U units GT-100, GT-120, GT-200 and iBlue 747. Those are pretty popular here. And there is lot more, about any gps logger with SirfIII or MTK chipset and capable of logging every second would do.

Royaltek RGM-300. I'm sure there are many others as well, but I've been very pleased with this one.

The biggest problem for me is that I don't have any other watch to run with, so now I going to miss the start. :-)

But seriously, are they going to do a list with allowed watches? For example are polar watches with altitude-meter allowed? And I still think a heart rate monitor is as useful as a gps-unit, when are they going to be banned? And the new rule states that your only allowed to use a compass etc. for navigation, is a magnifier-glass then allowed?

you seriously think that a HRM is as useful as a gps?

in that case we should ban using the sun to allow you to see where u are going or drinking water as it help keeps you hydrated and therefore improves your performance

Jagge, in that worldofo news it claims that "However, you may still use GPS logging devices without a screen - which give you no information at all as a navigational aid" but I must agree that in the rule book this has been left a bit open issue.
The easiest way of course would be to ban everything except "map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass". After all, some fairly competent coder could make the bt-335's BT-led blink every 50m or something...

loefaas, the rule talks only about navigational aids. So Polar with alt-meter is (and if visible, have been) banned but heart rate monitor is allowed.

I have heard organisers took off all polar/suunto watches from competitor's wrists some time ago, but I can't remember was it WRE national champs or what.

Devices are getting better and better, at some point we would have to limit using these. Just think of following - it's not allowed so nobody does it, right? I kind of understand IOF's point of view here, but stilI would like to see some clear written guidelines. For example something like :

- its ok to carrying device if runner gets no instant feedback (no screen, no beeps, no telecom datatransfers, no blue led blinks every 50m).
- if device has screen, you are not allowed to carry it your wrist/handor front side of your body, you would have to carry it for example on you back inside your shirt or other place you can't see the screen for sure and you can't take it of just like that. Wrist use with tape over screen is not allowed. If competitor is seen to take is off and running with a unit in hand it is DQ + 20 slashes and he has to walk/hitch-hike home.

I don't think it would be too difficut to write it down cleary enough and in a way most would be happy and could one way or other use devices they like / sponsors expect them to use.

HRM is allowed in other endurance sports like running/cycling and the benefits are the same or greater there, so I don't see much point banning HRM.

I think the rule is disappointing. I always like looking at the top guys routes with the Quickroute software so you can see how they manage their speed over the course. And with GPS you can't hide your mistakes.

At WOC etc you would lose more time attempting to figure out where you are/ went by the GPS than relocating. It also removes the "trust" from the athletic over not using it as an aid for navigating.

It does no favours to publish the sport to the non orienteering public

Firstly I don't like the process - I know we are remote in Australia but I think IOF should have canvassed a wide range of opinion. If they did I'm not aware of it.

Secondly I think it is a sledgehammer to solve a very small problem, if there is a problem at all. I doubt whether any runner in a WRE will gain a significant advantage from any of the technology currently available. I'd like to see if IOF have any actual practical examples of where someone has gained time through unfair use of a GPS in a WRE: Yes it is a technogeek fantasy possibility but where is the evidence of a system being abused?

Thirdly they are banning a very useful tool for post race analysis that is widely used. At the last WRE in Australia, 63% of M21E routes posted on Route Gadget were GPS, including mine. A small number overall, maybe, but indicative of where the sport is going by its users.

Fourthly I'm not going out to buy new blind equipment just to carry it in a WRE (in fact I've retired anyway) but I don't see many people doing it despite the rush of ideas in the discussion above.

Fifthly IOF is being horribly defensive here - orienteers are better and faster than navigating than a runner using a GPS and we should be proud of that.

Sixthly IOF is missing a tremendous opportunity to engage with the commercial world via sponsorship, in a sport where there are very few such opportunities.

All in all a crushing disappointment.

I knew that Eric the Red had been banished from Iceland but only now have I realised the reason. Apparently the IOF caught him using the latest model lodestone for navigation. The Icelandic Orienteering Federation stated that this new technology may not have helped him get to his destination faster. However, after his journey he had used the device to plot his route which gave him an unfair sage-telling advantage.

Everyones harping on about "a GPS ban" it isnt a GPS ban. Its only a ban on GPS units which have a display, everyone can still have GPS routes when they finish by purchasing small cheaper GPS units.

I think this is a good thing, it removes the temptation to cheat.

Secondly it means I dont carry around a big heavy garmin on my arm in big races that doesnt fit in which doesnt match my skin tone, I can have a little GPS unit the size of a sportident card in my pocket. ;o)

Right, as far as I see, the only arguments put forth against this ban allege that post-race analysis, etc., will suffer. De jure (with a nod to the barrister there) there is nothing about this "ban" which requires that effect.

I guess the more nuanced argument, or what people are implying is that given an installed user base of wrist-wearing GPS people, the status quo is preferable (in that their $300 investment doesn't go to waste--which it hardly will anyway...)

I say better late than never for this regulation, and it is hardly late. My sense is that the penetration of GPS in the O community really took off in the last 1-2 years. Given how fast moving rule making bodies typically are, being 2 years late is pretty good.

Among other things, the IOF is entrusted with ensuring the sport is not mutated by technology. At the moment, they have a far easier time than governing bodies in almost everything else, eg., golf, cycling, swimming,etc. I don't begrudge them trying to stay abreast of developments.

I think there is an epic poem or folk song here. I can only get a weak version of one verse:

John Henry said to the techy
"You can have that GPS writstband
Before that machine will beat me down
I'll die with my compass in my hand"

Maybe someone else can figure out what to rhyme with sportident (money spent?), and whether this story leads to the same place as for John Henry....

This link explains what the rules commission does, and who its members are.IOF rules commission

Cheating implies you get a time advantage.

Has there been a field trial? Has there been a race where, say, half the field have been given GPSs and told to use them wherever they can for advantage, and the other half are told just do what you do normally? Would the GPS team win? Why don't we have several GPS teams - Garmin versus Magellan versus Omnisat etc?

Is it the case we haven't heard of such a trial because using a GPS is slower and less accurate?

I totally agree with Mats Troeng
"This is a really contraproductive decision made by the IOF. In my opinion, IOF should aim for making our sport more attractive. And letting the top athletes share their route choices with their fans world-wide certainly makes the sport more attractive and visible. Banning them to do so is NOT attractive"

I've used a GPS watch in all orienteering races in the past 2 years, and have never once been tempted to look at any navigational information while racing. If you are relying on that information, then you are unlikely to make it to a WRE level event anyway.

To me it is a giant step backwards for the sport, especially for coaching, promotion, attracting sponsors and trying to attract young tech savvy participants.

Let's just hope that National Federations don't apply it at lower levels.

I'm with j-man on this one. It looks like there's no reason why you can't carry a datalogger, so there's no ban on collecting track data. It's just that the particular GPS devices (watches) that some early adopters already have don't meet the criteria. Oh, what a shame. Spend $50 and you're back in business. Eliminating the possibility of GPS navigation at the top level? I'd think that would be a given. Seems like it would make sense for any serious competition, and triply so for Rogaine, by the way.

That said, I'm also the author of the "Microwave ovens are specifically permitted" rule from the 1000-Day, i.e. bring any damn piece of technology you want, provided it isn't a transportation aid like a bicycle. Which is to say that I agree that gizmos are unlikely to be helpful, especially for top competitors. The general public doesn't see it that way, though — non-orienteers seem to think that the sport must be meaningless now that there's GPS.

The only time I can think the use of GPS would give an advantage is pace counting. Pace counting is something a very rarely do but if I can run on a bearing and know that I have to travel X meters to a control then a GPS would be very helpful and stop me running off when I cannot see the control. IMO if pace counting is the required skill to find a control then the map / course setting is not what I am looking for in a orienteering race.

For general navigation the map is always going to be a faster option.

21.3 During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use or carry are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.

I certainly agree that the IOF rules could be more specific. Is something really a "navigational aid" if you are not using it or it is otherwise not helping you. Maybe this should read "potential navigational aid". But furthermore, what exactly is the rule supposed to apply to? Obviously, it is not meant to apply to shoes, clothing, or glasses. It would also make sense that it shouldn't apply to heart rate monitors, which can in fact be helpful but do not seem navigational in nature. However, what about a step counter? Or, what about an ordinary watch? Many people use their lap time to estimate their distance traveled. Taking this to the extreme, would it be okay to wear a special watch that displays your estimated distance after you press a button to indicate your estimated speed? One could argue that such a watch simply "displays different time units." Sadly, the fact that the IOF simply added two words ("or carry") to the old rule suggests that not much thought was put into the issue.

Look, I regularly defend the skills of elite orienteers against the naive questions/accusations of people outside the sport who don't really understand what we do. Obviously, no one is going to win an elite race through the use of GPS, although it is likely you could ensure you would lose if you attempted to use one. Everyone here understands that.

On the other hand, it is not hard to imagine that technology will improve to the point where GPS would be an asset, not a liability, to highly skilled orienteers. When will this happen? What form would it take? Would it require seemingly absurd contrivances? Some sort of implant? Sure, this may be seem ridiculous, but performance enhancing technology today would seem quite fanciful to athletes of 50 years ago. Anyway, enough of the flight of fancy.

If the acid test of cheating is gaining a time advantage, a simple thought experiment would suggest that GPS fails. It most certainly would affect the distribution of outcomes, which seems like unfairness to me.

It won't affect people at the right tail of the distribution--they would gain no advantage. But, it could affect the other tail, shifting it to the right. For an unskilled competitor knowing unequivocally where you are is a big advantage. Some participants, obviously not elites, "get lost." Training in existing GPS technology would lessen the impact of that possibility.

2nd-ing/3rd-ing j-man and others here.

The easy-to-use pace-counting feature of a fore-runner GPS device (hit a split, and watch the meters climb up) makes it a fairly helpful nav. aid in some terrain. More complicated, but plausible with today's technology & developers like the Walker brothers, to be able to, in 10's of seconds after you start, give you a App with a GPS-dot-on-picture-of-your-map...*

So this type of stuff should either be clearly allowed, and then we all compete with these gadgets, or clearly disallowed, so we all compete without them. The rule to disallow it seems fair, and ensures that the sport "isn't mutated by technology" where those with fancier tech setup time & money get noticeable advantages.

*E.g. 'the Walkers' or similar savvy programmers, could write a phone-app where you could photograph the map you are running with on your WinMobile/GPS/Camera phone, have the picture & current GPS position automatically sent to a server. Have that server do a map-matching lookup (e.g. contour-line and/or road shape/finger-print matching nearby the GPS position) to geo-reference your picture of the map, then send back the geo-referencing information to your phone. The app. then displays the picture of your map (course & all), at whatever zoom level you desire, with your GPS position visible on the map.

This would be pretty cool, but might not be compatible with formal, competitive sport orienteering.

I the rule means what we believe it means, I am with jjcote here. This rule was quite good decission and timing was about right.

I am a bit surprised how strongly some people seem to be against this rule. Logging is still allowed and post race analysis can be done, no much harm done. So the only real disadvantage here is some people just bought new toy and you can't use it in WRE races? Big deal, use it in other events and buy $60 device if you like to log some rare WRE races too. And wasn't it only good they did the rule now, not 2012 when there these are even more popular.

Pace counting with GPS is not the only way to cheat. Just think of someting like Forssa Games, 25 min race, 200 runners and 1 mins tart interval, first starter starts over 3 hours before the last one. Someone runs the course with fore305 and takes splits. Then hands the device to late starter who wears it in map mode. If he is uncertain at some poit he can just look at the watch and rn to the control or back on track. Easy, no geek skils needed and doesn't slow you down because you use it only when needed.

Same can be done if someone at organising groups helps you to cheat, gets map & course for few days before the race, so you can geo reference map and set course up without actually running it.

Like Jan wrote at woo, O is based on fair play and gentlemen?s agreement. But the fact that no one cheats does not mean we should not eliminate easy/straight forward/clear cheating possibility if we can. Just thing of doping, likely no one does it but if we could eliminate the possibility would it be smart thing to do? And following, as fair play and gentlemen?s based on agreement no one does it(?), but it stull would be nice to get rid of that problem too.

All real counter arguments I have seen are just whining for having to pay $60 if one likes to log WRE races.

The IOF ruling is correct and should be applied to all important competitions. If allowed the use of GPS devices as navigational aids will soon change the nature of the sport. This will happen as technology improves and elite competitors learn how to take advantage of it. Let's ban it now!

It appears to me that the IOF already banned the use of GPS as a navigational aid -- which would include distance measurement. Banning the carrying of a device that could, but does not have to, be used as such stikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

Anyone who thinks GPS are useless shuold try the method I describerd above. Let someone run course first with fore 305 and mark controls. Then run the same course yourself 305 in the map mode and let it guide you if you are uncertain / about to make mistake. All do mistakes, even top athletes, these devices can be used to eliminate/minimize the time loss. Then think again is it problem or not letting runners have such devices on their wrists in important races or not.

Someone runs the course with fore305 and takes splits. Then hands the device to late starter who wears it in map mode.

Well, yes, but I think it's generally agreed that there's an advantage to be had even if the first starter just gets an old copy of the map, draws the course on it from memory, and hands it to the late starter to study. Or these days, if the first starter takes a photograph of the map to show the later starter. The IOF hasn't banned cameras, but passing information about the course to other competitors is already against the rules, right?

Back to Jagge's original post on this thread -- What do you think?

I think someone ought to start organizing events where you can use any GPS or other gadget you want, and even make it easier to use them so there is no immediate disadvantage (you don't have to stand after the start punching in coordinates while the non-GPS person is already off and running). And see what happens. At least have some tests. Among the possible outcomes could be more people orienteering and a lot more sponsorship possibilities.

When skating skis came along, they adapted race formats rather than just banning them. Similarly with other sports much more successful than orienteering.

We have had a standing offer at the 1000-Day for a long time to let people use GPS, but nobody has ever done so other than to record tracklogs. Of course, it may well be that the technology has only recently gotten to a point where it could be useful, and unlike skating skis, or clap skates, or the butterfly stroke, it's not such a clear advantage. I think the best place to introduce it as an accepted alternate category would be Rogaine, where it would be more straightforward to distribute coordinates, where it would clearly be useful (especially on questionable controls at night), and where there's the potential to attract people from the geocaching community. But route planning is still going to be a very big part of the game.

The Allegany State Park (NY) map has UTM coordinates marked on it. We use them for control placement, and other users of the map like them. For the US Rogaining Championships last June, we debated having a division just as JJ describes, but we were concerned that championship rules forbid (or at least strongly discouraged) such a parallel division. I'm not convinced that the rules actually forbid this, but in any case, that's a championship. Prototyping such a division at a non-championship event would probably be the way to begin anyway. So, are there any takers?

I'm not sure what all the hullaballoo is about. You can still track your running all you want, only without the temptation to look at a screen and without wondering if people will accuse you of cheating.

As for the 'gps provides no advantage' argument, I'd be willing to bet that if someone started actually training with a FR, using the splits feature to "pace count", that that person could get really good at using it. Right now we don't practice doing it, so of course it's not much good. I don't think you need to think of off-the-wall cheating methods to come up with a way that makes gps advantageous.

I also don't think we should start incorporating these techniques into the sport. Yes, sometimes new developments are good for a sport, but in this case I think it changes the fundamental nature of orienteering - brain vs. map. Sure, go ahead and start new categories at local meets, but I hope that's not the direction the sport goes.

passing information about the course to other competitors is already against the rules

Of course cheating is against the rules, like smuggling the actual race map from forest to be studied by a late starter. Using gps has already been against rules, so rule change it's not about that.

The carrying nav aid change was just one of the changes, there was also changes about using telecommunication equipment. The rule change can only be targeted to make it more difficult to use new cheating combinations
- map smuggling, scanning, geo-referencing, control digitizing and using telecom to transfer data to late starter's wrist gps or cell hone just to study before start.
- tracking live/online one of the first starters on old map to get the same advantage as jjcote described (drawing the course on old map from memory). So the one who gets the advantage is not the one who runs with the gps. Its the one who sees the course in advance on old map on is cell phones screen while waiting his own start at quarantine zone. So the cheater actually wears no gps at all. Tthe one who uses the gps does not need to have screen at all. Easy to do, writing such "cheat" apps took me a month an I am not much of a geek after all. For this scenario I was/am afraid IOF might ban all tech devices, even tiny loggers. Hopefully it is like we think and loggers without screen are allowed.

Even though I am the developer of OGPS (a program similar to QuickRoute), I actually would agree that disallowing GPS watches makes sense, taking the assumption that it is inappropriate at WREs to trust competitors to not use them.

I have used my GPS watch a few times when setting and picking up controls. With the control locations programmed into it, it is definitely a huge benefit. However, even without the control locations, it could still be used to measure distance and display your track, showing you where you are in relation to where you have been. Although I have found that trying to use my watch for such purposes is generally a futile distraction, I imagine that if I trained with it, it would become a small benefit.

However, as I said in my previous post, the new rule is too vague. At one extreme, you could claim that corrective lenses are a navigational aid because they help you see where you are. On the other extreme, you could claim that a GPS watch is not a navigational aid unless you are actually using its GPS features. However, I am most concerned about the following:
* Regular watches: These can certainly be a benefit. Knowing the amount of time you have been running can help you estimate how far you have run.
* Heart-rate monitors: These are relatively new technological aids that can help people pace themselves, thereby ensuring that they don't get exhausted (which can lead to bad decisions). That being said, they don't really seem navigational in nature.
* Watches with altimeters: Are these definitely banned? What if they are used in terrain where they clearly wouldn't be much help?
* Electronic compasses: I'm guessing these point north a lot faster. Are they banned, or is an electronic compass still just a compass?

On an interesting note, I expect that in a decade or so there will be wristwatches with the same features as today's smartphones (i.e., camera and GPS). And by then, ordinary GPS watches may be much smaller and pretty much indistinguishable from other digital watches. Will the IOF have to ban all digital watches? Furthermore, what will happen when communication technology becomes so small that it can be concealed under clothing? If competitors couldn't be trusted, there would have to be airport-like security at pre-start areas. After all, one could have a GPS-enabled phone hidden somewhere and a miniature earpiece in their ear canal or tooth cavity. This could give automated alerts with distance and altitude information, or an accomplice could be giving directions to the cheater. An earpiece may not even be necessary. Perhaps vibration, touch feedback, or even small electric shocks could be used instead.

Fairly off topic, but it popped into my head about halfway down the thread ...

Given the expense (or lack thereof) of data-logging GPS devices, I'm surprised that some enterprising tech-folks (or device manufacturers themselves) haven't set up a fee-based data-logging service, at least at major events. You give them $5, they prep a device, you carry it on the course and turn it back in afterwards, and they upload youre results to a website, routegadget, some such.

If one of the data-logging device manufacturers were approached carefully, initial startup costs should be minimal ... the potential for future sales would be extremely high if the experience was pleasant enough.

The downside being you don't have the device to train with, and I suppose they're already so cheap ... but I would have definitely spent the $5 (or even $10) to have our GPS track from the SVO rogaine last weekend, and would certainly have 'impulse purchased' the service at the event.

Great thread! It's really got me thinking about other ways to collect and use data for navigation besides the traditional map, compass, and pace count.

fee-based data-logging service

http://www.trackme360.com/ was offered at the NA Championships for $25.

http://www.tucsonorienteeringclub.org/index.php?op...

http://www.findmespot.com/en/

Ah, if there had only been some place online where I could have searched the internet for that before I had posted. ;)

Thanks for the links!

If you have a problem, Valerie can fix it!

But, note that the cost of those services is significantly more than the $5-$10 per race hughmac is theoretically willing to pay...(more like $25 - $30).

True, Brooke, it would seem silly to me to pay $29 (the weekend rate for the trackme360 service) for one event when I can pay $50 for my own device, and use it for training, etc. I suppose if I were canyoneering by myself or something it would be a nice emergency device (signal for SAR services, or 'help from your friends' :)) and therefore worth the big bucks, but I just want the track. So maybe there IS a niche for my scheme yet!

When are all you clever types going to put a GPS in an SI stick and be done with it?

Then we can ALL track our routes, the eliutes can be displpayed on TV in real time and we can watch our sport in the Olympic Games?

I'd be willing to carry a slightly larger SI stick to have that feature!

We alredy have O with GPS tracking in TV, severals shows every year. No need to change epunch to do it.

---

From Jukola 2009 Instructions:
It is not allowed for the competitor to use his own tracking devices.
http://www.jukola2009.net/english/competition_inst...

So, in Jukola this year only 20 runners on each leg are able to be GPS tracked. It seems that not even the logging devices Jagge thinks the whingers should buy for $60 are to be allowed. Progress? I think not.

Right. Jukola's rule was there before the new IOF rule change. I think thought they must to do something to the wild gps use. It's better if IOF sets common clear guidelines so each event organizer does not have to do it - Jukola is a good example what happens if organizer has to do it on their own.

I don't know how it reads in Finnish, but given that paragraph is about GPS tracking for the spectator's benefit, I'd interpret it as "must use organiser's system not your own" - I'm not so sure it would also apply to recording devices as well...

I think one reason behind Jukola GPS ban is the popularity of using GPS cell phones for tracking. http://sportstracker.nokia.com is a hit here, you can easily track yourself live online. If a club has 3+ teams, 2nd+ leg runners could see the most of the course on old map with possible forkings. You get live kml feed from sportstracker site, you just need to calibrate old map in Google earth in advance. Old method of drawing from memory helps only third leg.

(in Finnish it is clearly written you are not allowed to carry any kind of gps devices. Sad decission)

A multi-leg relay like this is a special case. The only fully effective way of keeping information from later runners would be to quarantine either the finshers, or the people who hadn't started yet, but for social reasons that's obviously not going to happen.

Could it (the Jukola rule) also be that the use of gps at night may be relatively not as disadvantageous, speed-wise as during the daytime?

Latest from the IOF: http://www.orienteering.org/i3/index.php?/iof2006/...

So no Garmins allowed at WMOC. Bruce, Eoin, Richard - will you still be going?

The rule certainly seems reasonable enough for the highest-level competitions. I'm just hoping that it doesn't trickle down to regional and local meets. I like having the GPS track available after the meet, and don't really want to purchase a separate non-displaying device solely for the use during orienteering meets.

Here in Canada, wearing a GPS watch is technically against the rules, but many people wear them and no one has been disqualified yet, as far as I know.

While some argue that trust is a fundamental aspect of orienteering, the fact that we use punching shows that there are limitations to this trust. Letting people run around with large displays on their wrists that could potentially be guiding them to each control does seem to undermine the seriousness of the sport.

What does everyone think about forcing competitors to hide their screens (e.g., with tape)? Mats Troeng, the developer of QuickRoute, does this. There could be a rule saying that screens of GPS watches must be covered at all times. Although this does sound a little bit tacky, I can't see anything technically wrong with it. While cheaters could peek under their tape (hoping no one ever sees them), they could just as easily carry a small GPS device in their pocket.

Does screen concealment seem like a good solution for clubs and federations (or the IOF) to adopt?

In the IOF clarification AZ linked to it says "It should be clear that covering a display with a temporary seal, such as tape or other means, is not accepted".

Seriously, if the loggers without screens are $50 today, in a few years they are going to be about the price of shoe laces for your o-shoes. Stop whining. The world is moving on. GPS logging for race evaluation is going to continue to be an important tool. Use your cheap logger for races and your screen watch for training. Enjoy the ride!

I did read the clarification - thanks. While a screen concealment exception does seem inappropriate for the international level, it may be practical for less competitive races.

I agree that serious orienteers who want to log their routes should just get a logger and "move on." However, loggers are an additional purchase and most don't come with armbands. They also don't record heart rate data. I don't mean to "whine," but my point is that getting and using a special logger is a hassle, especially for beginners and recreational orienteers.

It really seems that this issue needs to be addressed somehow. But maybe the continued bending of the rules (in less formal situations) is in fact the best solution...

Thomas, my whining remark was not related to your specific posting. I just believe that loggers will continue to improve and get cheaper. In not that distant future most orienteers will have a logger in their little kit bag together with compass, SI stick, control description holder etc. When it's time to race, you put on your logger just like you bring your compass and punch card. You won't think twice about it.

Who needs an armband? A logger can just go in your pocket. Mine is not than much bigger than the key fob to unlock my car, and it only cost $50. I'm very pleased that the IOF has clarified that loggers are OK.

There are even added benefits of buying a GPS logger. The I-gotu 120 advertises ...
"I-gotU GT-120 GPS Data Tracker is the device for tracking employees, kids, spouse, cars, fleet or pets. Wondering about where your kids or teens are going? Suspect your spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend of infidelity? Wondering if your employees are using your vehicles for personal use? Need a travel history of your limos, taxis, buses or other commercial vehicles? i-gotU GT-120 allows you to review detailed information about a vehicle or person travel activities without actually being there"
So much for building trust in relationships!

Police in our area were accused of using a similar tracker for a month, without a search warrant, leading to the case being thrown out when the fellow (accused of burglary, I think) got to court.

Hmmm... didn't have time to read everything, so this might have already been posted...

Garmin provided an upgrade function for their Forerunner 405 - so you can download the latest software for your Forerunner. Perhaps Garmin could be persuaded to create a special software version for orienteers that excludes any banned information from being diplayed. At a competition you could download this version to your watch, and hopefully, the IOF, and any national bodies considering a GPS-watch ban, could be persuaded to permit it. OK, it might not be fun retro-grading your advanced GPS, but the complete software can always be re-installed after the competitions.

Since orienteers are probably the largest group of buyers of Garmin GPS watches, they might be interested in pleasing us...

I know far more road runners than orienteers wearing Garmins and they rely on the display.

Since orienteers are probably the largest group of buyers of Garmin GPS watches, they might be interested in pleasing us...

I used to work at Garmin as a college intern (7-9 years ago), and I own a 405. I've contacted the company twice about changing things on the 405 that would please orienteers. And basically, Garmin doesn't seem to really care about orienteers. One of their company bloggers wrote went to a PTOC event once or twice, and that's about it, but it's all about the running and biking.

It's a shame, because worldwide, I think orienteers represent a nice market for Garmin, and they don't even acknowledge that. For example, if you have a workout on Garmin Connect, you can choose between 47 "activity types" for that workout, none of which are orienteering (but if you're into "kite surfing", "indoor cardio", "resort skiing", and "recumbent biking", you're covered).

Another firmware solution (assuming we could get support from Garmin) would be to have a special screen that certifies that "No navigational information has been displayed since [whenever]." This way, Garmin wouldn't have to publish separate lines of firmware.

However, any firmware solution would require orienteering officials to manually check competitors' watches. I find it hard to imagine this happening at the international level. Also, the exception to the rules may look silly/tacky/ungraceful.

Maybe Garmin could start making loggers designed for orienteering and other sports (like Rogaine and adventure racing) where you're not allowed to see navigational data. Ideally, these would be small and tough, record heart rate data, and work with Garmin Training Center. Perhaps the GPS logger could even be built into the HR strap so it's just one object.

Since orienteers are probably the largest group of buyers of Garmin GPS watches

If that were the case, the company would be out of business.

As a result of this thread, I've just acquired an I-gotu BT-200.
First run was quite a good result, after only an hour of charging, I got a run , then downloaded a reasonably accurate route. within metres.
Quite impressed. And no display, so no problem!
:)
And a hell of a lot cheaper than a garmin.

Does the i-gotU with Bluetooth automatically upload your track(s) when you get back to your home computer? If so, that's great, and maybe I'll get one. (My dad has one of the non-Bluetooth models).

My favorite thing about the Garmin 405 is the automatic wireless transfer. By the time I get back to my computer, my tracks are already there, without the hassle of having to deal with any cables or opening any software.

No, you have to plug it in. But it only takes a moment, so doesn't really bother me.
Plus you need to plug it in to charge it anyway, so not a problem.

My favorite thing about the Garmin 405 is the automatic wireless transfer. By the time I get back to my computer, my tracks are already there, without the hassle of having to deal with any cables or opening any software.

Yeah but you should turn your computer on at first ;) And if you are going to analyze your performance (isnt all this GPS thing about that?) you should open software anyway and then pushing button to download data is not a big deal anymore. Nowadays all cheep GPS units can transfer data via wireless Bluetooth.

Personally, I have not bonded with the wireless transfer feature of the 405. I think this feature is a minor one. As mentioned above, I also don't keep my computer on all of the time, so, I have to turn it on for the transfer to work. Also, the wireless transfer happens without the unit being charged, so it it is very easy to let the 405 get low on battery charge. I like the 205/305 better since it forces me to connect the unit to transfer the data, and I am charging it at the same time.