Discussion: technique for dealing with requests to see your map

Americans often report having to deal with people asking to see their map when they're out on a course in Europe. This happened to me in Stockholm a few weeks ago, for example. It can be off-putting - it takes a few seconds of your time and can really break concentration.

Has this happened to you? How do you deal with it?

What are the official rules over there in Europe about this? Why is it so prevalent? How do Europeans deal with being asked? Is this generally tolerated? Are you considered to be a horribly rude person if you refuse to show your map? Is there a polite way to refuse? Does this only happen to relatively slow people like me? (I think fast people have reported this also although, it almost seems like the faster people get even ruder "requests" to see the map - like just grabbing.)

Does this happen much outside Europe?

It annoys me. Except when it's a little kid who clearly isn't going to be placing and is really struggling. And with kids who seem like they can handle it, I feel more comfortable suggesting ways to relocate as opposed to showing where we are.

It seems like something I need to be mentally prepared for going into a race.

It annoys many people! ;-)
I have no idea about rules. But if a little kid or a beginner asks me, where he/she's, I would/will help. We have also some top-M60+ - runners here in Switzerland, who ask others, as soons as they are uncertain about their position. In this and other cases, I just ignore them.
Especially senior runners talk a lot in our Swiss forests! ;-)

I guess, It might happen more often to "slower" runners.

I once helped a runner who went on to win her course for the day! Never again. I just ignore them and keep doing what I'm doing. Just taking the time to say no is distracting.

It's a Swedish pick-up line.....consider yourself complemented.

I feel that it merely encourages good control flow... If you stop at a control people may ask you where you are... with good control flow, no one has the chance to ask you!

I almost naver say anything when somebody asks.


at control you can say "wait a moment" but after punching just make route choice (if you havent done it before punching), say noting and just go. So make them wait for nothing.

if you are not not competing too seriously look asker's map and lead him to go wrong direction. They can't blame you, you can't be always right you know.

When soneone asks, I say no hablo [insert local language here], and press on like I have no clue what they are saying, even if the request is in English. Seems to work, tho I haven't been in this situation in the Spanish-speaking places I've orienteered. Perhaps in that case, I'd say Ich taler espanol nicht, and while I have no idea what that means, I'm sure it would be equally effective.

Kick them in the shins and run!

It is interesting how persistent some get though. Many years ago I had someone try to snatch my map away from me. Unless the person is a bewildered young kid or and older person in obvious mental and physical distress I ignore them.

Try carrying a tattered copy of Pawtuckaway with you and just hand it to them and take off. Should give them something to think about for a while.

:-)

Well, these ideas are interesting but they would leave me feeling like I had been mean to a stranger, and I don't really like that feeling.

The control flow is a very good point, I like that. And it's really only a problem at controls because elsewhere I can say "I don't know exactly where I am."

I guess I can train for the emotional side of this situation by walking through Central Square here in Cambridge - and saying "no" to all the panhandlers.

I got asked from time to time usually by youngsters so I got no problem stoping a few seconds to help them. If I got asked by someone obviously not a beginner, I pretend like I never heard him/her and continue.

Once I had the case of the very real dull guy grabbing my map. It was the very first control of the very first leg at my very first Jukola. Even knowing about this before, it was quite a shock with all the stress around.

You just do what suits you, and that might be quite different from person to person. Some people love to help, cool. I ignore them, and when I'm really orienteering well, I don't even remember being asked. I see no reason to explain anything or give any response, or do anything that gets me thinking about them rather than where I'm going. Just keep moving.

As to the concern about saving a youngster or a beginner from a traumatic experience, it's not like you are the only person they'll see. Let someone who is orienteering not so seriously help them. I see no reason to feel even the slightest guilt -- there are 10K other people out here in the woods to ask, it's not like you're condemning them to a horrible fate.

That said, I do remember helping someone once, but it was in the USA, at the A meet a couple of years ago in Bow, NH. Deep, dark, complicated forest. I came to my control, and there was a person there, I knew them, an adult and competent orienteer, a request for help, I think with the start of an explanation about how totally lost the person was, and also an apology for asking, but the main thing was the look in the eyes, verging on real panic. I stopped, pointed out where they were, made sure they understood, and then moved on. For every rule, there is always an exception.

To me, it kind of depends on the situation, type of race, whether the person is 'competition' etc. At the Pawtuckaway World Cup I had a Finnish woman ask me; I essentially told her to FO; knowing she was competing against my female Canadian (and American) friends. If I was at a regional or national race, at which my daughter or junior club mates were comepting, and another junior I did not know asked me, I would ignore them. But latest example for me was at a relatively small meet (Westerns in 2008, Alberta) when I was nearing the end of my course, and came across an obviously lost older Swedish couple who asked for help. Basically I quickly sized up the situation, figured they are tourists, they asked politely, probably wouldn't hurt etc. So I took a minute or so to show them (It was a control on my course) then carried on. AND GUESS WHAT - Adrian ended up beating me that day by about 7 seconds!!

but how guilty would you have felt leaving those poor lost tourists out in the forest with the possibility of them never finding there way out ever again.... could you ever orienteer again with that hanging over you....? ;)

Colm - just to be clear - by 'tourists' I meant orienteering tourists; not that they were non-orienteering walkers or berry pickers or something. But the potential 'guilt' was a factor; my sizing up of the situation included thinking that I wanted to be a nice 'host' to people that had traveled so far to experience the orienteering in western Canada. I am not as serious a competiror as i used to be, but I'll get Adrian next time! (no big deal)

I pretend I have to go to the bathroom . . .

At APOC 2000 a male from an Asian country waited at a control and as I approached it to punch snatched my map from me and loudly demanded (I guess) to show which control I was at. I was stunned, momentarily, and tried to retrieve my map. Another male (similar age?) came to the control and upon seeing this new competitor he threw my map to the ground and ran off following the other male. This was quite a shock to me in just my second year of orienteering.
However helping (even) distressed (not injured) fellow runners is technically against the rules though some do help each other out on the basis neither is "competitive". To a stranger, depending on the situation, I'd probably give the nearest major feature direction and keep on going. Assisting kids is another side to it as well.
The comments of what to actually say reminds me of how I dealt with hawkers when travelling in China last year. Though looking western when approached I let fly with a load of loud gobblygook (eastern European block like) and they backed off very quickly. They don't respond to "No thank you" but they certainly left me alone each time I used this reply. Of course it won't work at one's own state or national level, but it was good fun while travelling!

During a slow, frustrating run, if you spot 'hoverers' at any control (not on your course), you could go punch it and obligingly show them the circle on your map :). Then continue on your course with a smile on your face.

2 people at JWOC this year asked me where they were on the Long distance day... they were from the same country.
One at the 2nd control and another near my 7th control. frustrating!

here in Germany this happens quiete often. In my opinion, askinhg someone is on the one hand against the rules and on the other hand rude, because the person asked looses concentration and time. So in my opinion, from a moral standpoint it is ok to ignore them or give a rude answer back (there were quiete a lot good suggestions in the posts above).
A different situation are kids, who are obviously lost. I even had kids crying or nearly crying and no other orienteerer nearby (German local events are sometimes pretty small), so I normally take 10-20 seconds to show them where they are. But I never show my map, I look at theirs, point out where they are and say something like "You are here, this is the rock you see over there." and make sure they understood, then I leave immediately to minimize the time I loose myself.
In the German championships someone won with 10s advance. A friend of mine said she helped him identifying the right control in the woods, so he won the championship just by shouting through the forest. I was shocked to hear that even the top level runners ask for help in the woods, even if its at such an important race and clearly against the rules...

Everytime I go to Europe there seems to be more of this happening.

To take Barb's panhandler analogy further. Practice some tough love. If you give in and let these cheaters look at your map this is not helping them but will only encourage them to cheat more. And maybe let others think that this activity is permissible. Instead give them the help they really need with a quick suggestion of getting a coach who can teach them how to relocate. They may not appreciate it at the time, but in the long run it is better for them to change their ways.

Plus you have upheld the integrity of the sport.

I like the idea of just handing them some random map from out of your back pocket

so we can expect this behavior from confused children... and now some europeans.. says something about some europeans

I've used Randy's foreign language solution several times.

Once someone at a meet in Estonia asked me something in some language (probably Estonian) and I hollered "I speak English". To my later embarrassment, I later realized that "I" means "NO" in Estonian. So who knows what the person thought.

Apparently it is the elite Scandinavians that do it the most, grabbing your map even it can be quite scary.
"WHERE AM I, WHERE AM I, TELL ME!!!"

I have heard stories of a junior who had really trained and then this happened to him. He missed selection to run for his country by 30 seconds, half the time spent talking to the "elite"! He never orienteered again

Maybe practice showing people where they are really quickly? UpNorthGuy maybe could have saved those precious seven seconds by talking a bit quicker ;-) And anyway, I suspect the real problem is Ross is too cheap to get a fast SI punch and the 7 seconds really was from having to wait for his slow, cheap dibber ;-)

Seriously though - looking at it from the other side, I was orienteering at O-Ringen once. Controls all over the place. I took a careless attack at a control 200m from a path junction. I arrived at a wrong control and all at once got a small appreciation of why people ask you. Consider my two options:

Option 1: run 200m back to the parth, relocate, attack the control again. Estimated time - approx 1-2 minute.
Option 2: wait at the control, have someone show me where I am, attack the control from here (probably less than 100m). Approx time, well probably much less.

I know there are serious reasons not to take option 2. But when "everyone else" is, the temptation is certainly there.

Just for the record, I went back to the path junction ;-)

About the foreign language thing. They will hold you in place pointing at the map and shrugging their shoulders until you give a definite point to some spot on the map. I mean you dont have to talk just point and both people would clearly get the others message.
The toilet one will work though, and will also work to get rid of someone following you!

I've never had my map grabbed from me, but I've been asked where I am, what control I'm at, and whether I have punched a certain control already or not (the last from a former World Champion during a World Cup race!) ...

I find a quick shrug or 'I don't know' works and doesn't throw me off much. At a control a shrug and a 'Sorry!' before running off. As with all things orienteering, the key is to expect it as a possibility and then not let it throw you when it happens.

Helping Lost kids?

I've mentioned this before in a similar thread (searched can't find).

As for distressed kids it's not always how it seems.
They can turn the waterworks on at will.

At a big event a fews ago, maybe Australian Champs, I came across a young girl, maybe10-13 yo on the way to my first control. It was a reasonably long leg. She was upset and crying and asking me to show her where she was.

Now being the hard arsed guy I am, I wasn't willing to do so and possibly help her win (who knows it happens as discussed above) but offered to take her back to the start or a major road/track if she was lost and worried she would not be able to find her way out of the forest. She declined and I offered to do so a couple of more times. She refused each time, only wanting to know where she was. Her greatest worry seemed to be that she couldn't find the control rather than any sense of fear for her personal safety.

Being a relatively early starter in a large field I just said goodbye and left her trying to minimise my own losses. Was I fair - to my mind I was, willing to abandon my own course to assist if she was genuinly in danger.

We didn't lose anybody that day so I guess she either relocated or more likely got some kinder soul (sucker) to assist her.

I might sound harsh but she really pi$$ed me off as she wasn't in any danger of being seriously lost especially since we weren't a hell of a long way from the start, but merely upset at losing time looking for a control.

During my first European orienteering adventure in 2001 (WMOC Lithuania, O-Ringen, French 5-Days) I was shocked at how many people were yelling in the forest. In France where I could understand a wee bit of the language, I realised it was control number codes and they were either asking where the stated control was or were advertising they had found it for others nearby.

Often I was asked where I was and I just said "I'm an Aussie - sorry mate don't speak the language", but after several days of this I finally cracked and retorted "Do you know what F*ck Off means". His stunned look suggested it has a fairly universal understanding and I felt a little guilty but I had had enough.

BTW - In an earlier event I had helped one guy only to see him beat me by a couple of minutes. That certainly gives one a certain perspective on assisting people that ask you for help.

Why feel guilty about ignoring these cheaters? Kind of like feeling obligated to talk to telemarketers rather than just hanging up. The sooner you end the conversation the faster they can move on to the next potential sucker, so you are doing them and yourself a favor by cutting them off immediately.

it strikes me that we are a bunch of hard-assed purists, insisting that orienteering be done without any outside help or human interaction. Sounds like we're a bunch of autistic computer scientists, relishing in having found a sport that requires no interaction with other human beings at all. Oh, wait, we are ;-)

We have stories from the extremes - scared young kids to cheating category winners. But what I notice in European events (well, excepting Scandinavia where I have no idea where the people who aren't good at orienteering go) is that there are loads of people in between those extremes who are just doing the sport and seeming to enjoy the pack hunting. I don't have a problem with that, and in fact I kind of wish we could see more of it in North America. Orienteering is an incredibly difficult sport - and we really need to make it easier and more inviting to the masses if we want to expand the sports appeal beyond us hard asses - we have to get a bit more relaxed.

I find we are really good at turning off people who try the sport. Perhaps part of this is this insistence that you can't talk to anyone in the forest? I mean if I was just trying the sport and someone told me to FO when I asked for help, I'm pretty sure I'd have given up the sport pretty quickly ;-) Of course, that isn't to say I've never told people that myself.

Maybe we have a clue here as to something we can do to make the sport grow and retain more of the people that are brave enough to try it.

It seems to me that there is a sensible middle path here. If you are at al ocal low-key event, then no problem to stop and help people out. As AZ says, that will help encourage people to stay in the sport. After all, there are not sheep stations up for grabs in these events.

However, when it comes to national championships, WMOC, regional championships, World Cup, etc, there is certainly justification for ignoring requests for help with location or for giving the "F off" response. Part of the deal in those races is that people should know what they are doing and be able to get themselves out of any difficulty. And there is something at stake in terms of the results -- not sheep stations, but a trophy or badge or something that is the equivalent of sheep stations inour humble sport. So we can certainly be a little hard-assed there.

That said, I always stop for crying kids as they are the future of the sport. Even if they go on to do a good result in a championship race, I hope that, over time, they will learn about good sportspersonship in the sport.

Agree there's a middle path.

Most of us are talking big events and often people that are very competitive trying to get an unfair advantage. My example of the girl was just to say that looking distressed and being worried about your actual well being don't necessarily go hand in hand and as I said I asked her at least three times if she wanted me to help her find her way back.

At local events one can make better judgments about what assistance may be needed by a particular competitor as you'll probably know them. I'll often stop and ask newbies how they are going especially since I was probably the one giving them advice on their arrival. I actually talk too much out on course but never about the navigational challenge at hand.

None of us are out to cause people to have a negative orienteering experience. We just want some form of fair play.

Maybe we can have different classes, those wanting a shared orienteering challenge and those that don't want to be spoken to with some sort of chest number colour giving an indication as to shut up or not in their presence.

My experience of people asking for help in European events is mostly as AZ describes as "in between" the extremes. It's just a bunch of people out in the woods for a fun time, and they chat with each other. Mostly I've just had people asking me a control number or yelling one out, and I can see why people do this. People do it in the US, too, it's just that we don't have enough orienteers in general to see much of it. And it's easy enough to ignore or just shrug it off if you aren't interested in helping or receiving help.

As for the more aggressive types (grabbing the map), I think it's totally reasonable to be downright rude. ;-)

grabbing the map should always be reported!

When you go to big events in Europe, you find all sorts of people. An overwhelming majority is still the introvert geek type that is silent focused and minding his own. But you do find other people, up to the ones that talk continuously, apparently even when there's nobody around. And they can be damn fast and good orienteers, too. There is a particular Finn who's called the train conductor, cause he's directing everyone into the right pack during mass-start races. And he's a national elite.

I am a bit puzzled by the "purist" attitude to this question. Those that are lost are seldom competing for very high places. At least not in big European events. And by helping them you give them a bit better experience.

When it comes to being disturbed, there are different tactics. One is of course not to recognize, and it works. Another, is to develop a routine where you point to your map or to some distinct feature nearby and continue running. It doesn't take any time and it shouldn't stop your concentration. If it does, you have some training to do. In very big events, there are a lot of people behaving oddly. There will be "incidents", but you should be able to do your own race nonetheless.

You have the guys, and girls, who ask for your help immediately after having come to the wrong post, but they are easily singled out and better be left alone. But no-one improves as an orienteer after having to relocate for more than 20 minutes, at least not repeatedly.

"But no-one improves as an orienteer after having to relocate for more than 20 minutes, at least not repeatedly."

Disagree - it took me a few years of this (slow learner) and I credit this with my reasonably good ability to relocate now. Asking where you are is just avoiding the issue. Of course some people will never learn how to do so regardless of how hard they try but still enjoy themselves and I have no trouble with helping them as they are not out to be competitive.

>Those that are lost are seldom competing for very high places.

Obviously people who are "lost" for 20 minutes are not competing for high places, but the discussion is not about them. It is about those who are lost for ~ 20 seconds, and still exhibiting questionable behavior. They are clearly competing for high places, and based soley on on testimony presented above, by reasonable people, this is not a rare occurence. Therefore it is very worthy of discussion and criticism.

I think the most extreme perpetrators described above are more than deserving of resistance, verbal and otherwise, but I also think khall's approach (above) ~"take care of your own game" is the best advice for a serious competior, who doesn't want to sacrifice their concentration/performance for a noble cause.

Never happens in Western Australia. Everyone has their own map.

At one of the WOC's in the early 2000's, we had one of our ladies in the South African team have her map snatched from her by a Swedish female competitor at a control. It was a qualification heat race, so the 'lost' Swede had obviously turned up at a control not on her course and was keen to find out where she was asap. She went on to qualify for the final :-(

I suppose we should have put in a protest of unsportsmanlike conduct. It would have caused one hell of a stink. I think our lady was still too shocked to even think of complaining.

At the risk of going off thread (and I think there are other threads on this kind of issue) Nick has touched on an issue that kind of plagues our sport, and IMHO is one of the things that prevents progress on things like this and following. Of course I am talking competitive level stuff, not crying children.

Instances like this happen alone in the woods and often go unnoticed by officials, so they can be one competitor's word against another; and what competitor wants to take the heat or be in the spotlight for lodging such a complaint? With following we know it's often a case of 'everyone' knowing full well what is going on in the forest, but no one really has the guts to make a stand and do anything about it. In hockey or other spectator sports the officials are right there and can make an instant call, or at least league officials can review the tape and apply fines or suspensions after the fact.

I remember a scene from the summer Olympics a few years ago (although cannot remember the details) - I think it was the leader in the women's marathon race walking that was just going down the ramp in to the stadium to win the race and an official stepped out in front of her and red-carded her for a race walking infraction. And I thought my god that took guts.. Would be nice to see a stand taken against following or map-grabbing.....

That was an Aussie chick disqualified in the 20km walk. It was a sad, sad day and just goes to show the pointlessness of the sport.

Reading about the issue of following I started thinking and there should be an easy solution to this. In the new age of SI it should simply be a matter of computer checking now. While I don't know much about the software, I believe that timestamps are saved in the SI sticks and that is how the elapsed splits are determined(I could be wrong). If this is indeed the case it is as simply as comparing time stamps of competitors, if two competitors seem very close at multiple controls then a computer program could flag the legs where they punched together and trigger an investigation. Universities use programs to compare papers for plagiarism, so this should be simple in comparison. It would be a simple algorithm and would require a little regulation by the IOF and national federations for what is too close and how to handle the investigations. It would not be perfect, but it is at least progress.

Off topic - creamer, take a look:

http://news.worldofo.com/2008/06/02/grouping-eoc-m...

Who should have been red-carded? TG for following Novikov?

Creamer - if two people end up together, and they are of similar running speed, the chances of them separating massively, even if not following, is surely small. It is a faster safer option to navigate relatively independently and have another competitor to bounce off / cause you to double check if things seem awry than it is to risk taking a completely different route choice jst for the heck of it.

It is easy to prove 2 people ran together, it is very hard to prove that one was following the other.

There were numerous cases along the lines of Nick's example at WOC last year. I'd have been pissed if I had come 16th in a women's qualifier.

Firstly disappointed that we've strayed off topic (map pinching -> following), but will make some observations anyway.
Firstly, following comes in a few different forms: behind and in parallel. I've been followed "in parallel" to the detriment of the other person. I was directly on line (travelling N) for a control, W side 4m boulder (pretty obvious??) but my parallel follower (20m to the E) didn't hear the beep or notice the slight slowing of my pace to punch control. Hence proceeded on to subsequent controls just a little ahead but still nearby and found to horror at download ..a missing control. Was I imagining it? I was asked at download to corroborate " that all controls had been visited from #3 onwards" by the other runner. Yeah, right!! I keep checking for you and me? I'm certainly not in the Elite level, but it was still important to me.
But I recall reading earlier this year that following behaviours would fall under severe scrutiny at top class (World ranking?? WOC??) events. The criteria for following? Being within 10 secs at a determined number of controls - I think 4 or 5. I checked to see if it was 1st April. Think about making just one 2 minute mistake in a course, and picking up a similar paced runner; a course with few real route choices or even obvious route choices - alarm bells ring. This must be following - and who is the follower - the second puncher or the first who makes a speedy dash after doing little navigating. Some maps/courses won't be able to produce sufficient seductive route alternatives - and I'm certainly not going to change my choices.
There are a few examples of known followers being "outed" - innuendo and snide comments are unfortunate. But a follower is going to have to be very fortunate to have a frequent, convenient start time to really benefit in the long term.
Will be interested to see the official approach to solving the problem.

Jagge - I said it should trigger an investigation, maybe interview the runners involved in the packs etc. Keep a database and issue flags or warnings that yield higher scrutiny at future events for runners. It would obviously require some work to make it a viable solution. Also, 15s in a ~ 1 min leg is a huge difference, to follow effectively I would presume you need to be much closer than that or you would lose the other runner. In the Novikov Gueorgiou example, there we only 4 or 5 /20 where they were less than 10 s apart.