Discussion: NAOC

Judging by the parity of the WOC relays results (US women & Canadian men slightly ahead) I suspect this year's NAOC M/F21 results may be the least lopsided in years. Can the US get the Cup back? While _in_ Canada? It's quite possible for the first time in years. Keep training!!

Uhhhh - I wouldn't count on the US getting any closer than usual to the cup. Project "Bjorn Again" is well underway....

But please do come and give us a good run for our money! The terrain is excellently technical and challenging, both navigationally and physically - you will certainly be glad you made the trip!

Just out of curiosity, is the historical record posted somewhere?

Ahhhh, let the trash-talking begin!

Might as well tell customs now that there will be extra baggage coming through Niagara this year. Which box do we check on the declaration form for "Cup, large eh?"

Are the scoring rules for the cup posted somewhere?

How many US WOC team members are coming and how many Canadian? I know that Sandra, Suzanne, James, and I are out, as is Hammer. Anybody else?

I'm in.

If nowhere else, the historical record resides on AttackPoint at http://www.attackpoint.org/discussionthread.jsp/me...

I'll be there.

Plan on seeing myself as well as Katta there to run for the Great White North....

The history is easy to remember...
The US won in '82 and Canada has won the rest....

Yup we have a good weekend of orienteering planned with proper sprint, middle and long distance courses for the first time at a NAOC.

All three races are WRE events as well. More details will be on the web (race distances, map notes, etc) in September.

Mike, didn't we agree on a change to the scoring system? I think something like -- each of the three events scored separately, top 3 of each sex to count for each country, point system rather than adding up times. Or am I just imagining? Details of the point system?

Up until now it's been top 2 of each sex, total time for the weekend.

I think it's a good idea using the NAOL point system with the top 3 from each country counting towards the country but others being able to help ie. when the US gets the 7,8,9 positions behind 6 Canadians their point total will be even lower than if they were counted as 4,5,6th scoring runners. That way you can help your country even if you aren't one of the top 3.

Anyway, I will be there, too. As will the woman who has won the trophy the most times and the one who plans to get an early start on challenging that record. There may even be another former Can national team member and WOC competitor making her comeback from injury.

People that are out....
Mark Adams I think is coursesetting and organizing
Mike Smith had talked about going to the WC in France but not sure if that is still happening

Yes, both teams have agreed to the new point system mentioned by PG and theShadow above. We'll add it to the web site soon. Perhaps somebody could write the new rules up so we only need to copy this into the web site.

To all the Canadians: Air Canada is having seat sales, good deals for fall travel. Sadly probably no tv like WestJet.

I started my training cycle for NAOC! Beware :)

Hopefully Boris is just planning a surprise visit like happened one day last year... It would be a shame if the guy who held off Wil at the only bigger championship relay doesn't show up.

Katta's running for Sweden, right? If she's running for Canada already, then maybe we get feet (hoping his injury is better by then).

Attackpoint predicts the following attendence:
http://www.attackpoint.org/eventdetail.jsp/event_1...

Katta is so running for Canada.

Too bad there's precious little time for a sprint relay to induce more trash-talking. Maybe that could wait until another winter training camp?

So, I am about to suggest a winter training camp in the West Coast of the United States of A in Jan 2007 (free accomodations). Objections? Kudos? Entries? Better ideas? (Free accomodaions for up to 2 weeks for um a house with 2 bedrooms. Certainly some O-training, lots of running, nice weather guaranteed.)

$50 off airfare coupons to the first several entered.

im defenitly in.

Should I plan my vacation time set for Jan 2007?!

feet has counted for the US in 2000 and 2002 (he didn't go in 2004). feet isn't sure he offsets Katta, though, and nor is he sure his knee is ok yet (though it's promising).

Go feet!! and knee too :)

Is Sandy HJ making the trip? And didn't Katta just deliver a baby or something? I hear that takes a little out of you for at least a few weeks post-partum... How many weeks will have passed?

No Wyatt, I am definitely not going, though it was a tough decision to make. I am already registered for the World Cups in France that are happening at the same time, so this is a certainty. I will be rooting hard for the US, though!!!

I'm trying to get there, although it will be a sad day for the US if I help their efforts any. I'm pretty sure I'm eligible for the Canadian side as well, since I haven't competed in any national championship meets in the US this year. Of course, I'd be even less likely to help them out.

NAOC Update!

In the last few weeks we have had several requests for course length information for the North American Championships. The course lengths will be finalized and announced in late September. Thanks for your patience.

For the M/F 20-34 (elite) categories we can provide some information on the course lengths (note that these may change a little by late September as we continue to fine tune the courses based on our controllers' feedback). IOF standard winning times for sprint, middle and long are the targetted winning times. This informaton is also on the web site.

MEN Elite (20-34)
Sprint: 3.2 km, 15m climb, 18 controls
Middle: 4.7 km, 75m climb, 18 controls
Long: 12.4 km, 170m climb, 22 controls

WOMEN Elite (20-34)
Sprint: 2.8 km, 15m climb, 16 controls
Middle: 3.7 km, 60m climb, 14 controls
Long: 9.5 km, 145m climb, 15 controls

We have also updated the terrain page on the web site - with further updates in late September.

http://www.dontgetlost.ca/glof/terrain.htm

Registration deadline is September 21st.

Unfortunately Sandy HJ will not be in attendance at the NAOCs. And yes, Katta just had a baby in May, but she's very much back into training and will be more than ready to kick some US butt in October!!

Mount Nemo map clip looks nice. Is it 2.5 metre CI as well?

>Mount Nemo map clip looks nice. Is it 2.5 metre CI as well?

Ross, It is 1:10,000 but with 5m contours and yes it is nice. The basemap was 2.5m contours but the mappers chose to go with 5m. You can see that the mappers have included almost all of the form lines.

Hans Fransson and I are setting the courses for this race and we were on this map for the first time today and it was quite nice (small but nice). Portions of the Nemo map are the nicest terrain of the entire weekend. Like Rocky Ridge it is flat and easy to make mistakes. "Finding Nemo" perhaps. Anyway it will be a great way to finish the weekend.

Predicted winning times:
MEN Elite
Sprint 13:30
Middle 26:00
Long 1:15:00

WOMEN Elite
Sprint 14:00
Middle 24:00
Long 1:11:00

Sergey,
Your predicted sprint winning times are about right but too fast for the middle and long - unless Swisscheese plans a surprise visit!

As I mentioned above the courses have been set with winning times targetting the IOF times.

Here are results from the 2003 Eastern Canadian Champs on the map that borders Rocky Ridge to the south. This gives you an idea of the expected min/km.

http://www.dontgetlost.ca/glof/GLOFDay1.html

>>>Unfortunately Sandy HJ will not be in attendance at the NAOCs. And yes, Katta just had a baby in May, but she's very much back into training and will be more than ready to kick some US butt in October!!
Question is .... will Sandy's little sister be there to do some butt kicking of her own?

OK, I take that back. Terrain is much more tough than I thought! I had to change terrain difficulty factor from 1.1 to 1.3!

New predicted winning times:
MEN Elite
Sprint 13:30
Middle 31:00
Long 1:27:00

WOMEN Elite
Sprint 14:00
Middle 30:00
Long 1:20:00

I've been hearing discrepencies about the scoring system for that cup thingy. Are they stated officially somewhere?

What, like Canada's points showing a discrepancy with respect to the US' every year for a long time?

Brent, I'm definitely hoping to be there (I think Heather is too), but I haven't planned that far ahead (I'm more of a last-minute planner, so I get to pay the atrocious fees for flights when I book late!). :)

That would be cool if you could make it. Hope to see you there

Sergey, your times are much closer now.

John, nothing official is on the NAOC web site yet. Check for various past AP threads here about the points system.

John F wrote "I've been hearing discrepencies about the scoring system for that cup thingy. Are they stated officially somewhere?"

They are now on the NAOC web site.

Bjorn Kjellstrom Cup
================
Given the new format (sprint, middle, long) of the North American Championships there will be new rules for 2006 for the Bjorn Kjellstrom Cup. The Cup will be awarded to the country with the highest point total after the sprint, middle and long distance races. Points are awarded to the top 15 finishers in each of M and F 20-34 according to the following points system: 1st - 25, 2nd- 22, 3rd -19, 4th -16, 5th -13, 6th -10, 7th -9, 8th - 8, 9th - 7, 10th -6, 11th -5, 12th -4, 13th -3, 14th -2, and 15th -1.

The top 3 finishers for each country in M and F 20-34 in each of the three races is used to determine the overall points total.

Example for John F:

The USA finishes 1st through 10th in both men and women in all three events, while Canada rallies to take 11th through 15th in each event, again both men and women.

So the USA will get 25 + 22 +19 = 66 points in each event for each sex, while Canada will get 5 + 4 + 3 = 12.

So the final score will be USA 66 x 6 = 396, Canada 12 x 6 = 72, and the USA takes home the cup.

Top 3 scorers from each race. So up to 9 different men and 9 different women could figure directly in the points total for a country. But even more people could figure indirectly since this system rewards a country with more depth (as is demonstrated in the wildly unlikely example above). The US better eat their wheaties for that to happen.

I'm deciding between flying from St. Louis to Toronto or Buffalo and renting a car. Buffalo's appeal is Southwest Air rates and a leftover voucher for half the fare.

But how's the border crossing these days in a rental car? Any undo problems? (I do have a passport.)

It took me and my family 51 minutes to cross from CA to US. US to CA was about 30. I took splits on the CA to US crossing -- after the 51 minute wait, the officer spent 34 seconds on us ...

A coruse designer's dream: long leg followed bu short leg.

Thanks, that does help.

FYI: For a Friday-Sunday STL-Buffalo round-trip, SWA is about $370 ($100-170 cheaper than United or Air Canada RT to Toronto).

Alright Randy, I am going to take splits at the border on the way to Hamilton in October. Can we post them on AP to compare?

On the way back from the COCs it took me less than a minute to get across (unless you count the time it takes to get across that bridge at 5mph.........). That was in the middle of the night though and there was no line.

Out west it is generally faster to avoid the major border crossings. Are there any minor places to cross that might be faster?

One of the lakes?

There are 3 bridges (I'm pretty sure). US to CA I used the Rainbow Bridge (the one the tourists use to see Niarga Falls). On the way back, I used the northernmost one. Next time, I'll use the southernmost one. (BTW, it probably won't be as bad if you are coming back on a Monday, as opposed to Sunday afternoon, when we came back).

Fares are well under $300 to BUF from out west. Actually, any place you'd want to go in the fall looks well under $300. Reciprocally for O in the Oaks, and the January training camp.

Going to the Canadian champs last weekend: Peace Bridge at 6:20am on Saturday morning: one car in line. Queenston-Lewiston at 6pm Sunday evening: about 20 minutes. Remember NAOC is on Canadian Thanksgiving, so the lines should be worse.

It is indeed Canadian thanksgiving weekend, which means that the travelers making the border busy will be Canadians going south on Friday and north on Monday, which should be your total reverse direction... unless you pull a 180 ;-)

Well.. I'm not sure that Columbus Day is as popular as Canadian Thanksgiving, but it is a 3-day weekend on both sides of the border. That certainly means that the wait at the border will be entirely unpredictible! (Which is why I planned Thurs and Tues!)

Of course the border crossing they are talking about Barbie is east-west. Rochester and Boston are almost due east of Hamilton.

FYI race and training locations are here:
http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/7657

I believe Boston is north of Hamilton

Isn't there a Boston Pizza in Hamilton?

Yes, just south of Boston's Boston Pizzas

Some NAOC updates/hype and answers to common questions.

Entry deadline is September 21st. Enter now.

NAOC Banquet! Will be at Mohawk Inn in Campbellville (Guelph Line just north of the 401). Approx 8km from the middle and long distance race. Prior to the banquet is the COF AGM and also a silent auction fundraiser for the National Team. Visit http://www.orienteering.ca for info on the AGM.Banquet info on the NAOC web site

The Monday event is a mass start race with loops. Some call it Farsta, others call it one-person relay. We call it Orienteering Cross (O-Cross for short). 3 loops for women (17-54) and men (17-54). 2 loops for masters (55+ and -16) and 1 loop for (-14, -12). The event is NOT part of the North American Champs and is our annual Wine-O. Normally held in Niagara but this year in Burlington. Lots of Niagara wines as door prizes. Best terrain of the weekend.

Race distances will be on the web by this weekend (some minor changes to the distances may be made before the race).

The sprint, middle and long are World Ranking Events for M/F 20-34 classes only.

The middle and long distance days are also this year's Ontario Championships. Ontario Champs awards will be handed out after the NAOC awards ceremony on Sunday.

I don't think there are any Boston Pizzas in Massachusetts but there are 2 in Burlington and 2 in Hamilton.

Google maps finds a 'Boston Pizza and Grill' and a 'Boston Pizza Express' in Boston.

I've never worked out why 'Boston' seems to be an attractive culinary name. In Canberra (AUS) there is (was?) a Boston Coffee, and there is the Boston Market chain. It's not like the food is actually good in Boston (or the coffee...). At least neither the coffee nor the Market are good either, but truthful advertising is rare.

Need a ride? Looking to share a ride? Need information on local tourist attractions? Post a message on the NAOC discussion board on Orienteering Ontario Online

Mike, you seemed to have missed a catergory in your explanation of the O-cross. How many legs would M/F 15-16 run?

How about some info about the Monday event? Last time I checked (admittedly a few days ago), the website didn't say much.

The web-site now says
The O-Cross on Monday is a mass start race with several loops.
IT IS NOT A CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT. O-Cross is known in some countries as a one-person relay or farsta.
Courses will have winning times of approximately 50-60 minutes. The race is our annual Wine-O race which is normally hosted in Niagara. So you can expect many bottles of Niagara wine for door prizes.
A great way to finish the weekend

I hear that trying to bring wine across the border really slows down the border-crossing process so may I suggest that any American winning a bottle of wine donates it to a Canadian?
Now not just any Canadian. Canadians that are flying to the event should be excluded since liquids are not allowed carry-on anymore and who wants a bottle of red wine spliing all over the suitcase?
I'll be driving to Montreal after the event...

Why not just drink your wine at the finish?

Or drink your wine with Barbie at the finish?

Ah now you're talking ;-)

In that case, they better get a lot.

Nice, time to change the race priority for the weekend.

Young Fredrickson, you gotta get your priorities straight in life ;-)

wine should be strategically placed in location 5 min before finish to allow alcohol fully penetrate your body and mind.

Wine-O is for Whiners. Beer-O is where it's at. 2006 Westerns Beer-O Report here and results here.

Okay, if I'm reading these splits correctly, Pam is kicking the Shadow's butt on the beer drinking?
I knew someday her rugby background would come in handy.

I don't know if the rule has changed, but as far as I recall, you are allowed to bring one fifth (one normal wine bottle) per adult of legal drinking age. I've never had a problem bringing in a bottle of wine, although one time when I told the agent I had one bottle of beer remaining, he told me to pull into the inspection lane. The inspector was incredulous "you told him you only had one bottle?" and said something I'd rather not repeat about the first agent, as he waved me on.

I have a slight deviation from the wine discussion...although I do love wine. Are there any other U.S. women who are going to compete in the F20-34 category? Because right now, there are only 2.

Maybe they're scared?

Ummm.... hey, gals... where are you? register already! Geez.

Notice that Pam beat me on all the beer drinking splits in the beer-o. Being from the east coast and a rugby player was certainly to her advantage I think

> any other U.S. women who are going to compete in the
> F20-34 category? Because right now, there are only 2.

Ouch. Trash-talking aside, I think somehow we ought to be able to do MUCH better than this. The NAOCs will probably be one of, if not the, best events this year in North America. And on top of that, they're WRE events.

Whether or not the new IOF World Cup rules stand or get modified, it still makes sense to get as many people out to WRE events as possible. Hamilton, with its close proximity to the US O-Zone, as well as relatively cheap flights available to Toronto or Buffalo on most major and discount carriers, is a great opportunity to count in 3 WRE's.

And, I would suggest to all those who are registered in M/F 17-19, as well as M/F 35, 40, and 45 classes to reconsider and register for the Elite classes, which will potentially increase the numbers of people in the WRE pool.

There is still MUCH debate on this topic going on, but it certainly would be helpful for us to have as much WRE clout as possible.

Please, please, please come to the NAOC's, and register for Elite (WRE) classes if you can.

Given that 40% of our women's WOC team, as well as Viktoria and Karen (and Kat, who came 4th at the US Champs), live in Europe, it's not surprising that we don't have great women's numbers at the NAOCs. However, i trust that a Saeger or two, combined hopefully with Pavlina, Angelica, Dasha, Cristina, Peggy and Kristin (and perhaps Erin?) will show up and put up a battle!!!

You better show up because 4 ranked runners are needed in order for people to get points. They have been making us a constant exception with 3 runners, but there is no guarantee or even a promise that they will continue to do so.

As of the October weekend, ranked runners (resident in N. America, to my knowledge) will be: Heather Smith, Hillary, Louise, Pam, Pavlina, Samantha. Of these, only Pam is entered. Looks like a Saeger or indeed two are needed to the rescue, and then some.

Based on the discussion I have seen on the IOF FOC Reference list, non-Euro countries are finally getting the idea that this World Ranking concept is serious and here to stay, regardless of what happens with the 2007 WC Rules.

What about Charlotte and Justine? (They are listed on the IOF site of ranked Canadian athletes).

Vlad left out Julia Cioban. Or he knows where she lives or will be living come October better than I do. Not that she appears in the entry list at the moment either.

Louise's log seems to be saying she'll come. I'm no longer certain whether I've seen comments in another Smith's log suggesting Heather will show up or not. Last I recall, Samantha was gung-ho.

I guess this is one disavantage of the big bang approach Canada is taking this year and next of doing all our allotted WREs at one event. Assuming we get four ranked female runners at NAOCs, there should be enough ranked runners at the 2007 COC WREs. However, by the time the 2008 NAOCs roll around, those will have rolled off the rankings and, depending on what the COF does with its WRE allotment that year, we may face another crunch. Though I suppose that would be easy enough to deal with by holding our 2008 WREs in the spring, likely at the trials.

Woah, that is a huge problem. If you have all of your WRE's on the same weekend, then you have to hold all of your WRE's the next year on a weekend earlier in the year. Eventually you are bound to run into the situation where the WRE's from the previous year have rolled off.

It sounds like you almost have to space them out over the year to guarantee that you will have enough ranked runners present.

Vlad was leaving out that the rankings calculation requires 4 runners who averaged 600 points or more in the races making up their ranking (I think that's the requirement rather than 600 points or more for an average in all their WREs in the last year). I've always assumed the rationale is that orienteers who aren't at least that good are likely to be inconsistent so that WRE points calculated based on them could be wildly out of line depending on whether they had an extremely good or extremely bad race.

why not at least for the sprint ( where courses cover more then one class ) have everybody listed on MF Elite results and have the awards based on the age classes ( because except some of elite runners , not many really care how many points NA will get ) but is nothing wrong competing in FE or ME and winning a medal on F35 ,M45 since is the same course.
take all the advantages we can.
of course if other events that weekend have the same course for 2 different categ. aplly the same rule ( elite and 35 , men and women for medium for instance .. they are probably only couple-few hundreds meters apart. then have the results based on age. then for sure we'll have way more ranked runners

Good idea if it can done. If I could get WRE points; help contribute to this (and future) NA WRE being more 'legit' (more ranked runners) and still keep the chance to win a medal in my natural age class that would be great.

After seeing Mr. Buhrer's opinions, I say juke away!

I second that.

Ditto. It's getting ugly.

I have to disagree (I love playing devil's advocate).

Buhrer's argument was basically that the fastest guys should run in the WC, and that if you are not in the top 100 then you should go train some more and race in other races until you are. You have to admit that he has a point. If orienteering is to attract media attention, you do need to limit the field a little, for example. Think of other sports with (televised) world cup series (snow sports, for example) - they mostly have restricted fields. He could be less inflammatory about it, but he does make a valid argument.

However, he does seems to believe that the world ranking accurately measures quality, which is a load of balderdash, but it's not unimaginably far from doing so (subject to the non-European countries' objections). And it will be a better ranking again if the WRE scores are actually used for something so people make more of an effort to get to the races.

If the WC was the only way to run in international races, or if WC experience were somehow really special and unique and essential to making you a better elite orienteer, I would understand why everyone is so upset. But there are plenty of other races to run in in Europe whenever you want to go. And, as he says, a World Champs. And the WC isn't something that uniquely teaches you how to be a successful elite orienteer. Go run Fin-5 instead.

And we (North America) can still game the system this year if we really care to. What's not to like, as they say?

I'll third? that. Let's get it on and crash their silly Euro-phile party.

I don't understand why limiting the field makes for better TV? Can't they just not show us slow bastards (which is already the case)? How much longer does an event last if there are an extra 30 competitors? It sounds to me like all he wants is to get his 7th-15th charges into the WC at the expense of everyone else. If he was a *better coach*...maybe with more work on his part, he could be the SUI head coach instead of just a "hobby coach."

If we don't fight this now, there is nothing stopping it from taking over every important race. I personally don't really care about the World Cup, but everything indicates that this is just a trial run for WOC. Let's stop the silliness before we lose our place at the World Champs.

WOC is almost certainly headed this direction. After all, why make an exception to dilute the flagship event?

OK, if it's just a thin-edge-of-the-wedge objection, then I understand that. I agree that all countries do need to be seriously represented at the World Champs. Maybe not all with equal sized teams (eg the Olympics), but everyone should be able to enter at least (relay team size plus 1) runners in all races there.

As for why it's better TV, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But if potential high placing runners are not racing because SUI/SWE/NOR/FIN/RUS/... have limited squad sizes, then the race is not so attractive. For example, people often say the Nordics are harder to win than the WOC. That shouldn't be, and it detracts from WOC.

Of course that is true, but that is not the problem with this new scheme. Nobody has objected to allowing more runners from the top nations to compete. The problem is in limiting the weaker nations. I think enough examples have been shown that demonstrate how many potential high placing runners will not be allowed to race under the new system.

And of course there is the problem of hurting the development of the sport.

There is no reason for lowering the minimum below 3.

Correct for the same-weekend issue. That's why in the US, we've never tried to have more than one WR race per weekend, and also tried to spread them around the year.

How did we end up in the NAOC thread from the WC 2007 thread?

Poor route choice and ran off the map....

Agreed. Every time I race in an international event I am well aware of the fact that the Nordic runners are only the tip of an iceberg of racers who are better than me. But elimination of entire federations from the WC (and WOC) is just going to crush out orienteering in those places. Its very easy for, say, a coach in SUI - a country with a well established and broad base of talent to choose from - to come out and say other countries just aren't trying hard enough.

Come now, the same weekend issue isn't all that hard to deal with as long as the North Americans take place every two years and choose to apply for WRE status. Since holding many WREs at a prestigious event should tend to maximise the number of people who run many WREs compared to holding three WREs at three different events, I'd say both approaches are valid. It may even be useful for Canada to cluster its WREs while the US scatters its allotment so that it will be possible in any given year to run in 4 WREs within North America with only two trips while still having some choice as to when those trips take place.

Did I miss something? Where are Buhrer's comments?

Gaming ....

So, we appoint 4 "heavy-hitters" (2 Can and 2 US) to head to Europe each summer to get as many WRE points as possible. They return to a week of WRE events (3 US + 3 CAN) where the "domestiques" (18 per country) are eagerly awaiting. As long as the "heavy-hitters" race pretty poorly (like 49% behind winning time) and the "domestiques" all fly around at light-speed, we should be able to boost the national points to respectable levels.

Assuming the "heavy-hitters" have mean points of about 1000, this means the "domestiques" can get get about 1500 each. Let me see, total national points = 2*1000 + 18*1500 = 29,000.

Canada and US launch themselves to the top of the Leader Board!

Enjoy.

Hello o-friends

I (Thomas Bührer) write in my function as national coach of the Swiss
men’s team.

I am not only responsible for Switzerland’s top 6 runners, but also for
runners 7 up till 15 in our internal hierarchy. The current places of
our runners 7 up till 10 in the World Ranking are 52, 53, 72 and 112. I
am very happy for them that IOF finally has changed the national runners
quota for the World Cup. They won’t have to watch anymore from far,
while most weak o-countries either don’t make full use of their
participation quota or send hobby orienteers as delegates. If you don’t
believe me please check the results of the recent World Cup events in
Germany 2004, Great Britain and Italy 2005.
Representatives of weak o-nations may claim that the new World Cup will
change everything. Nice to hear, in particular for the Foot-O commission
being responsible for its new format.

To be honest, in next year’s World Cup, I won’t miss Australia’s number
5, New Zealand’s No 4, Belgium’s No 3, Spain’s No 2, Canada’s No 2 and
Japan’s No 2 – nor will I miss Switzerland’s number 11. Their
entertaining value for spectators and media is too small, regardless of
any qualification races. Or to put it another way, these runners are not
(yet) good enough to compete together with the world’s best. The reasons
for this are mostly not any bad circumstances, but lack of training
and/or lack of talent.
But as Emil Wingstedt points out, we might miss Ushkvarok (UKR) and
Bartak (SVK), whose countries get only 1 place and who are currently No
2 in their country (based on the World Ranking). Such world class
runners would definitely contribute to make World Cup races denser and
therefore more exciting.

Frauke Schmitt Gran points out, that the runners above (and their No 1
Omeltchenko and Davidik) shall motivate their country mates No 3 up till
20 in the World Ranking to improve their rankings. In the case of
Slovakia, this might work up till runner No 6 or so, but definitely not
for the remaining others who are hobby elite orienteers with no interest
in any kind of World Ranking.

I see two possibilities to limit this problem:
Either Grant Bluett’s suggestion to reduce the number of counting
runners, e.g. down to 6. But would this really change anything about the
case of Slovakia for example? Someone would have to check. But at least
Foot-O commission’s idea of motivating Slovakia’s runners 3 up till 6 to
run more World Ranking Events would probably work.
I would prefer another solution by giving individual access to the World
Cup in addition to the national access. E.g. all countries having 3 or
less runners qualified by the federation’s ranking, get at least as many
places as they have runners among the top 100 in the World Ranking, but
not more than 3.

Including this rule, Slovakia would have 2 and Ukraine 3 runners in the
World Cup. Spain for instance would still sit on its 1 place, but Javier
Gomez could see a little light at the end of the tunnel, if he is
willing to struggle through the tunnel by training harder and competing
better. If he is not willing, there are a lot of other exciting o-events
around the world – World Championships for instance. That’s next on my
list, but I restrict myself to the World Cup at the moment.

Best Regards
Thomas

Schweet Brian! Can we use the terms "Workers" and "Drones" instead of "heavy-hitters" and "domestiques?"

Please don't let us be drones. I'm happy to be a domestique and help work the system. But don't the drones get eaten by the queen, or expelled, or some other nastiness. Either way, that would reduce my enthusiasm for attending WREs.

Another gaming option....

Give Bostrom an Arizona-Buffalo plane ticket and free entry to the NAOC and then give him some pre race two fours and mickeys.

two-fours OF mickeys!

two fours must be finished within time limit of 3 hours

is it Mike smith going to final round in Europe?
if so he should get in the plane very tired ,given the same treatment as for Bostrom and since he's highest ranked canadian , we probably could end up with high points

Actually, Bostrom's average (just over 1100 points) is not much ahead of Mike Smith's and Mike Waddington's (just under 1100 points). So we could achieve something by having them tank the race. After all, they already have decent WRE scores - we just need the other guys to get higher scores too.

Unfortunately, the strength of the field will be diluted by other ranked runners, including myself (average about 900).

[By the way, Brent - did you really start and DNF/DSQ the B-final in Estonia? If not, you should try to get that 0 erased from your score - it brings your ranking average down to 612 instead of the 816 it would be without it....]

Anyway, regardless of gaming it or not, we need more bodies to get there and get some points. The F-Elite race is in serious jeopardy of not even being a WRE at all if nobody else shows up! C'mon - we can do better than this!

And Mike is not going to the final round in France - he's only doing the NAOC's... But he might be a sucker for some fine single malt scotch!

Zeros don't average. Zero-point runs are excluded from averaging even if the zero is fully deserved. If you are having a bad WRE day, please quit! Unless you are one of the four precious females, in which case please finish.

If you are having a bad WRE day, please quit!

I think it's premature to be worrying about getting great WRE scores at this point. With a goal of having 20 men and 20 women with 4+ WRE scores in both Can/US, the immediate goal should be quantity, not quality.

several years ago Vlad offered zero entry fee to a WRE event in Ohio to ranked runners. I took advantage of that. thanks Vlad.maybe it's a way of attracting ranked runners to the events.
please remind me to offer some free entries to the next WRE ( hopefully soon ) race i'll organize.

Wil ! does that fine single malt scotch must come in two fours ??

One possible issue with spreading WREs around: If it's the case that the country's most important event has troubles attracting enough ranked runners, how many will the third most important event attract?

It seems to me that Canada needs to bootstrap its way up into having enough ranked women first, by pulling out all the stops at a big event, then worry about calendar diversity.

Perhaps next year's Trials should have a WRE...but the deadline for applying is very soon, if not passed.

I agree that selection races should be WRE. It's one of the few events where most elite runners seem to go, whether or not they're trying to make the team.
But this may mean that it's even harder to find clubs to organise the event given the extra work and stress that it brings.

I agree that we'll have to bootstrap our way into developing enough ranked female runners. The most straightforward way would be to ensure that this year's NAOCs are indeed WREs. Not a problem for the men, but unless some women can commit to the fray soon, we're in trouble. And preferably women with a good ranking score - though at this point I think we'll be happy to have anyone with a ranking score.

Luckily the sprint is first on the list - so that as long as the sprint has 4 ranked women, it will create enough ranked runners to ensure that the middle and long are WREs (here I am assuming that some women will score 600+ points in the sprint, which I believe is totally do-able).

After that, we should have (I hope) as many as 8-10 ranked women in Canada, as well as some ranked women in the US. Hopefully that will be enough to ensure that future WREs are also rankable, and off we go.

For the men it's a little more breathing space, but not much more. We also need to have good participation in these WREs to help ensure the future success of other WREs (particularly since the COC 2007 organizers have scheduled the COCs and consequently our 3 WREs directly in conflict with prime European racing season, and some of us may be out of the country - hopefully earning WRE points overseas as well!).

And for the record, we do need to have 20 runners in our federation score - there are lots of prime candidates in our masters' classes (including Tedro, Ross, BG,and so on - not to mention the others who are already organizing the NAOCs) who could definitely earn WRE points for Canada here, and will probably actually earn well over 600 points per race!

It strikes me that there's a risk in the proposal, especially if applied to WOC as well someday. If a country lacks enough ranked runners for local WREs to get ranked, and few are allowed to run in WOC or World Cups if country rankings are low (top 20), it could be a hole too hard to get out of, even if fast orienteers come along. A country might get a few ranked runners, but not enough for local WREs to get ranked, and thus not enough runners with rankings to get more WOC/WC spots (a vicious cycle). Indeed this almost seems like a likely scenario for some countries. Distanr countries with few WC/WOC spots have their country ranking steadily recede from the top ranked countries with lots of spots. The only way out would be a carefully orchestrated campaign of attendance at open WREs far away, followed by an equally carefully orchestrated campaign at home.

As Wil says, staying out of this hole will be key.

The COC dates were chosen to avoid WOC, JWOC and WMOC, and school (as a long trip with three events, and juniors being important as well). That left the current dates, or adjacent weekends. (Unfortunately, prime racing season is much the same in Europe as Canada, for much the same reasons. Holidays, snow, school.) We inquired on osquad about which dates might be better. I hope that the elite can come.

we need Sandy H_J to defend her title from 2 years ago..it's a must Sandy !.. also Holger , even not being eligible he should be at NAOC as well. and if they are tired from world cup , even better, they must finish their race.. another it's a must..we'll do the rest..we should promise ..

Well, all this NAOC/WRE/World Cup talk has knocked me off the fence I was sitting on ... and I just booked my flight to NAOCs. I have no points and am not female so I'm a small-bit player in all this ... but I would like to be one of the 20 orienteers counting toward the national score!

Bring it on, brother! Looking forward to seeing you there!

The man wins a bottle of Yukon Brewing Company's Espresso Stout for that kind of dedication and attitude.

I just booked a flight too! Let's hope we can get enough ranked women to make me also become one of the 20 orienteers!

Way to go Brian and Marie-Cat!

Half price fares on WestJet if you book by midnight mountain time tonight. (Tuesday/Wednesday only, but the other days seemed discounted too.) Nonstops to Hamilton (less car rental tax I find, and quick to get in and out of) from Calgary and Winnipeg. Or go to TO, Ottawa, London ON or (even) Montreal or Windsor.

I think it's awesome hearing everyone planning to run NAOC's and get ranked! If that's not great team spirit then I don't know what is.

Nick: Holger's defintely going to be a no-show, he's running the WC in France, including the relay, which is on the Saturday.
For my part I've already concluded the season in order to let my hamstring heal, so I haven't been planning to run either WC or NAOC. Anyway my ranking is in the shitter right now because of my injury so it probably won't help anyone getting more points.

The following is now on the NAOC web site and has been approved by the IOF controller.

The sprint, middle and long championship races in the M/F 20-34 (elite) categories are also World Ranking Events (WRE). In the sprint race on October 6th all participants on courses #3 (Women: 17-19, 20-34, 35-44, 45-54) and #4 (Men: 17-19, 20-34, 35-44, 45-54) will be considered part of World Ranking Event. North American Champs awards for the sprint champs will still be awarded in the various age-groups.

Hammer, does this mean you will automatically be put in your natural age group, or the age group you registered for?

This is relevant because the race will also be used for USOF rankings, and (I imagine) they do this based on the age registered for when the courses are the same.

This is cool. I can now run in 4 different age groups, all with good reason:

Sprint -- M45-54, as old as possible but still get WRE points (if I run fast enough!).
Middle -- M20-34, get WRE points (hopefully) to help the USA total, would make four WREs for the year.
Classic -- M55-64, defend my title
Wine-O -- M35-44, well, 3 of them had good reasons....

But can you run as a different gender? That might be more helpful.

thanks Mike for clarification...

i'm glad that I post this earlier

"why not at least for the sprint ( where courses cover more then one class ) have everybody listed on MF Elite results and have the awards based on the age classes ( because except some of elite runners , not many really care how many points NA will get ) but is nothing wrong competing in FE or ME and winning a medal on F35 ,M45 since is the same course."

For the US rankings, we always use your "official" age class. Official here is bsed on the year you were born - it's in the USOF rules that for a given course, you are ranked in this age class regardless of what class you register for at any A event.

One caveat - because some of the NAOC junior age groups don't align with the USOF ones, we will allow some adjustments. For example, consider an M20 running M20-34 at NAOC. This run can be used for a USOF ranking result on Blue. However, if this person would like this run to count towards a ranking result on Red, they can let us know ahead of time and we will do that since M20 is officially on red in the US.

I think in Canada you can be any gender you want.

The real question is will bmay run for the good guys or the bad guys?

Sandy - if an M50+ runner ran M45-54 at NAOC, would he be ranked as an M45 on Red or an M50 on Green?

A correction (clarification?) to the above post in the case when age classes that typically are on different courses are on the same course....in this case we will rank you in the age class in which you register. So if you're 48 and register for M20-34 for the sprint you'll get a Blue ranking result not a Red ranking result. If you register for M35-44 you get a Red ranking result in M45. If you're 52 and register for M45-54 you'll get a Green ranking result unless you notify us you want a Red one. And if you are 55+, and register for M45-54, you'll get a Green ranking unless you notify us you want a Red one.

More details will be posted soon on the US Ranking website...

Way to go MC! A bottle of Yukon Gold for you! I'll bring as much beer as it takes to encourage fence sitters (both sides of the border) to decide to attend. (or at least as much as I can fit into my checked luggage)

BMay wrote on the Canada o-squad that he is asking the IOF World Ranking people to have his last five years' worth of WRE points to count for Canada.... Can we get a certain W Hawkins to get his to count for the US?

A correction (clarification?) to the above post in the case when age classes that typically are on different courses are on the same course....in this case we will rank you in the age class in which you register.

Which I think is the case for the NAOC sprint, which means for the USOF rankings to work, they have to preserve registration information, even if they give awards based on natural age class.

What are you doing lurking on the Canada o-squad, Boris? Well, whatever... carry on!

Good luck to anyone who competed in JWOC this year who will be taking part in the champs. ps. Dont let Fraser Ross on to the roof of any buildings.

Boris , I don't think Feet can ask for that since he's not citizen yet ( or maybe I'm wrong, and I hope is possible ).. well it won't be long and we'll benefit from Kata's points..

If I go, I count for the US in the Bjorn Kjellstrom competition, but for Australia in the WRE-points-building stage. But I'm unlikely to be able to make it anyway, it appears at this stage.

You can change your federation affiliation for WR purposes to one of your choice for whatever good reason or no reason at all, at any time; I am pretty sure about that, having had a discussion with the counters just recently. There is no memory in the WR scheme as to what your earlier federations were, so your past WR results will all be counted with the new affiliation at the instant you make the change. I don't think the FOCers either knew that or cared when they thought about adding up the points for a federation's 20 runners.

So, for example, when Nick ran for ROM at the WOC, he got a ROM identifier and all his past CAN results became ROM. If you go back to past WCup results, you will find weird things like federations exceeding their allocation, only to realize that someone is now in a different country. So, for Canada's best, you should claim Nick, Brian, Hans, and Katarina (you already have pi), and the US... well... feet?

Don't worry Dylan, I don't think they have any buildings tall enough in Canada for Fraser to get hurt. But it's good somebody is worrying about him :)

Interesting. I wonder if we can effectively "rent" points from excess Swedes or Finns? Just convince them to change their federation for a little while around the time the points are added up to figure how many slots we have for a given WC.

People could auction their points to the highest bidding federation.

So now that we've cooked up tons of schemes to earn more points... will anyone from the US actually run the World Cups next year if we get an allotment of more than 1+1?

This was my point earlier in this thread - why do we really care? The answer was 'we don't, but it's the principle'.

I wonder if all this excitement may have actually raised our awareness of the WC. Now that we can't go, we want to!

How many US runners ran at WCs last year? Or in the past year?

Good question. I'm pretty sure Canada could use its quota if we get more - particularly on the mens' side.

We have missed out on some training/racing opportunities in the past for a variety of reasons. For many of us, it was just the wrong stage in life to be contemplating spending thousands of bucks for the chance to race overseas. However, we are reaching a stage where more and more people are able to contemplate such a thing - or even better, move to Scandinavia.

That's how it goes when you're dealing with small numbers of people - the sport is very sensitive to even just a few people being affected. This is particularly well-demonstrated on the female side in North America where, despite a better than average performance at WOC this year, we are still in jeopardy of not even having WREs at the NAOCs.

However, whether or not we use the spots is not the main point - to me, it is simply more important that the IOF spend its energy HELPING smaller O-nations, not hindering them with new obstacles.

And even more importantly, I feel very strongly that widespread decisions which affect runners from all nations should be made in a more transparent way, with input and public debate. And at the very least, the IOF could have made some public announcement about this new scheme - I am sure there are many countries who are as of yet unaware of the new rules. It is only by accident that we even discovered it - and even though there is a growing discussion about it, the IOF has still not seen fit to publicize the proposed changes as far as I know.

Eddie, a few days ago I took a quick look (I might have missed some). As best I can tell (and excluding WOCs):

Estonia: US had 0 men and 0 women: Canad had 5 men and 1 woman.

Italy: US had 3 men and 2 women: Canada had 1 man and 1 woman.

UK: US had 0 men and 3 women: Canada had 3 men and 1 woman.

Denmark: US had 1 man and 2 women: Canada had 0 men and 1 woman.

Germany: US had 0 men and 0 women: Canada had 0 men and 1 woman.

I didn't spend a lot of time and it is possible I might have missed a few.

Great, thanks! So for the US, in 3/5 opportunities last year we would have been cut short, and for CAN, 2/5. About half the time.

Vlad . after WOC I noticed that and I contact the person doing the ( volunteer) work for rankings, and he said until i ran again for Canada those points stay for Romania. now that means only next year I'm "available". or could be this WRE race. i understood it can not be at "my choice", , he said that doesnt matter those rankings except for country rankings. well its MATTER big time now, just few weeks later, .I hope to go above 3000 points myself after NAOC( with another 3 races 0 ( i already have 1800 's from 2), maybe that will help for another "spot".

There certainly must be some countries out there cursing that they didn't know this was coming soon enough to make sure they held all their WREs this year - North America is quite advantaged by dumb luck in that regard since most other countries athletes will have to do heroic amounts of travel if they want to pump up their federation rankings by January 1.

I can't help thinking Hong Kong would probably have held the APOC relay on January 1 and the Middle on December 30 if they'd known this was coming. Or not - federations other than Hong Kong would probably have been able to take better advantage of the additional 2006 WRE.

too bad i only found out this summer that actually Canada could have additional 3 races ( NAOC being regional champ ). too bad

does anyone think that COF and USOF could help in having NAOC every year ??. I will get an application together to go for one event ( sprint or medium ) next spring , presented before sept 2006, OR ANY CLUB WHO WANT TO HOLD ANY OF THE 3 RACES, ).. for sure we'll have more chances for the next year.. need all the help ideas that can be..

Wil,
I did in fact start the long at the WC with the intention of just getting some training. I didn't finish to save some energy for the relay. Not a smart move in retrospect...

I, too have room for some Yukon Beer in my suitcase. (or perhaps some Midnight Sun coffee) for those fencesitters. See you there!

It's gonna be a big party for the fencesitters who show up, anyway!

I don't have a two-four of single malt (at even 8 bottles I think it's already getting a little bit decadent) - but I'm sure we can improvise something appropriate....

Please note that the venue for the middle and long at the NAOC does not permit alcohol (but pubs on the Mac campus sprint location do).

If I sign up now do I qualify as a "fencesitter"?

Uh, sure - as long as your "beverage consumption" takes place within 3 hours prior to each meet....

As luck would have it, my mom's backyard in Westdale Hamilton (near McMaster) does permit alcohol and will be open for consumption throughout the weekend.
Also the best chicken wings in town are at The Snooty Fox, downtown Westdale. Not great for carbo-loading, awesome for recovery Monday night.

I'm kind of a fencesitter, but if I go (tentatively planning on it, probably just Sat-Sun, sadly, still working on hubby :-) I plan to run my age group. Can I still get some beer??
I get that I won't help the whole WRE points situation by running my age group. Unless I'm convinced that I can be of help (ie, that there will be plenty of other women there & enough ranked women to help us earn points -- a sore subject with me, as I've made several efforts to get to WREs in the US & then not earned any points -- and that I will furthermore be convinced to run in more WREs in the future ...) I think I'll stick to my plan to run the old lady course.

Peggy - nothing would give me greater pleasure than to personally provide you with some Yukon beer! Check out Yukonbeer.com and let me know what you would like.

Let's get lots of ranked women to sign up then, because I don't look forward to facing Peggy on the old lady course! :-)

Word has it that all Canadian female "ranked runners" on the continent are expected, with one maybe. That would make just enough for the events to be ranked (if no blow-outs). No solid word on American female ranked runners yet.

Ross, I can't believe *nothing* would give you greater pleasure than to bring me a Yukon beer!! But, okay, I'm now registered & have plane/car/hotel reservations, so I'm gonna call your bluff. I'm not a beer connoisseur, but based on the descriptions, my first choice is a cranberry wheat; second is Chilikoot Lager. That is, if running F45-54 (ack! I'm so OLD!!) qualifies.