Discussion: cheap electronic punching using RFID tags

Does anyone out there know of a way to use cheap RFID tags as the basis for an affordable electronic punch system that can be used for training and low key events (or events where SI units might be stolen). The RFID tags seem to be cheap enough (cost about the same as a couple tyvek control cards), and once attached to the control, shouldn't involve any more work that normally involved with hanging the control.

But, I don't know what to use to read the tags that's light, durable and inexpensive. I've wondered if the emit brick can be configured to read a simple RFID tag? I think with that system the orienteer carries the clock and that's the way it would need to be with just RFID tags on the controls.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not trying to solve the issues with SI and EMIT or come up with another system for major events. Just trying to figure out if there is a way to have an affordable sytem using off the shelf components that will provide splits and won't involve taking anything more than the controls with the tags attached into the forest.

I have been thinking of using cheap bluetooth devices as control tags and letting runners carry cell phones. BT devices in discoverable mode, cell phone would constantly scan for bt devices. The problem is you would have to find cheap bt device that actually stay in discoverable mode. Tiny <$10 bt handsfree ear plugs would do, but those usually stay in dicoverable mode only for a minute or two. Maybe someone happens to know such cheap devices(?).

cell phone app wouldn't be a big deal. You could also make it send data to server after each punch, so every control would be online control. And you could let it log track too if there is GPS available.

At Yökuppi we have already been testing it the other way around. There is cell phone at start/finish/intermediate controls scanning for devices and runners carry discoverable bt devices (cell phone or bt gps logger). Fully automatic online timing.

One alternative might be using barcodes and cell phones (with camera) to read those codes. Or instead of bar codes you could simply let them take picture of the flag, use shooting times as split times. Cell phones with buetooth, gps and camera cost about twice as much as a simple emit card.

For informal training events there's always good old surveyor's tape and a wristwatch...

There is a Russian system for orienteering electronic punching that is trying to use standard RFID tags.

http://www.sportsystem.ru/component/attachments/do...

One alternative might be using barcodes and cell phones (with camera) to read those codes.

I am working in that direction for urban-O. The main obstacle I see is sweat.

SFR System is quite comparable with SI in most aspects, and one of them is its development cost. Once that is figured in, you don't have a "cheap" solution any longer (even now, at half of the price of SI, in the absense of other meaningful competition to SI, and Emit is not meaningful competition, SFR is not "cheap"). The company will have to up the hardware price further to recoup costs at some point, or go out of business. Continuing the engagement as a hobby is of course possible but does not solve problems of scale.

It's possible to buy certain RFID Reader modules for a little over $10 retail.

You could use an Arduino to prototype it and get it running, and then move to a cheaper and smaller PCB with an Amtel or Microchip microcontroller (or some other brand of your choice).

{And I've got to say here that I'm a little out of my league. There are actual embedded systems developers here on attackpoint, and I am not one of them.}

The red plastic pin punches and a Timex.

You could

Indeed you could. The hardware itself is inexpensive, hardware/embedded R&D time is not. There is not something out there that would be priced for a mass market, not a specialty one, and would already have the required features; there will necessarily be months and years of development.

Once you put together the numbers (and we did look semi-seriously at buying SI a number of years back), there are a lot of other things you could be doing with your life and making enough money to afford SI's equipment.

I have long thought Emit might be able to do new additional sales in emitlandia (Norway and Finland) by introducing cheap "empty" dummy punch unit - no electronics, just the usual back up pin. And new punch card with button at the bottom of the card. This button would trigger split when punched. So in trainings, urban low key events and permanent controls you would use these new dummy punch units. You could get results by using regular start & finish units and users of this new type of card would get some sort of split times too. And if someone actually likes to check punches he could study back up papers. And you would get puncing training too, the actual act of punching would be same. With right pricing that might fly, cheap pin punch like <5€ punch units would be tempting for poor clubs, and rich individuals would happily buy these new expensive cards and gadgets to get splits in these events (and in own trainings too by pressing button with a finger at each controls). And those who like to use old cards would get result just fine.

A certain type of person will remove anything that has seemingly been left lying around, and other types will do so deliberately and gleefully if they think that it might spoil someone else's fun.

So whatever you use has the potential to be stolen. True, electronic punch stations are valuable (so are flags and pin punches) and you don't want to lose them, but the people referred to above may remove anything that could be used as a control point, even a piece of tape.

The point is that once this happens the event is ruined as results will be affected. Hence I like Jagge's idea of using cameras, but without any control markings at all. Setter chooses a series of unique scenes as their control points, and runners take photos when they get to the centres of the circles. For results you just play back the photos quickly on your camera or phone while setter checks them. The setter's photos could even be displayed before the start, and/or the control descriptions could include details of the scene/object to be photographed.

Or forget the camera, just have events where everybody carries some kind of GPS (which a lot of people are doing anyway these days), and you just download your track log when you finish. Nothing in the woods at all, and the required skill increases because you need to know that you were in the right place, rather than having a control flag to confirm it. Or actually, you don't, because the GPS will beep when you get within the required radius of the control point. If electronic punching is any kind of trend, I suspect this is where we're heading anyway. No need to put anything in the forest, and lazy course setters won't even go out to make sure that the map looks right, they'll just do the course setting sitting in front of a computer.

Thanks for all your input. I'm not that technically inclined so still trying to comprend it all.
I did find this today that might work but not sure about the durability or ease of carrying. Also still too much money so I won't buy one just to try it. But,keeping track that security guards make their appointed rounds and when they reach each checkpoint seems to be similar to orienteering punching.
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/329685949-RFI...

I'm pretty sure that I saw a link somewhere recently, here or World of O perhaps where some Swedes have actually implemented the GPS courses. Mark the controls on a map. Then each runner takes a gps with them. Download the track afterwards and they had a program that could tell if the person got to the control site and also splits. Someone else might be able to provide a link to it. If you still wanted markers out on the course you could just hang real cheap flags or laminated markers or some sort.

This is exactly how hang gliding races work (and I assume sailplane races as well), although the "controls" (turnpoint cylinders) are large, you just have within a certain distance of them (typically 400m) and you move on when the GPS beeps. In addition, GPS reception is really good when you're up in the air. Under a tree canopy or in steep reentrants, it's not clear to me whether current GPS units are going to perform well enough to satisfy the small radii that orienteering would probably demand.

Instead of frog style gps punching I'd prefer using pin punch (or in trainings empty si/emit boxes or "touch the flag" method) to make competitor actually punch and not just run close by. And use gps track only to generate traditional style splits for post analysis (course setter records control coordinates and nearest point of runners's gps track => split).

This is my first forum reply on this site, as am joined today. I believe cheapest electronics with quality, i explored it from Chinabuye, they sell latest gadgets and electronic devices corporated with latest design and technology. I find Aliexpress a bit costlier especially with regards to electronic devices is concerned.

i'd discourage bringing cell phoes into the woods. haven't we all been coated w/mud, dunked in water, caught in the rain? that would make a pretty expensive run. i like the pin-punch & wristwatch combo for the least expensive option.

I am actually going to try cedarcreeks advice and have bought an arduino and parallax rfid reader. I'm am wayyyyy over my head but I've already found programs for reading the tags and recording the times so that's a start. Haven't given much though to the down load process though. In any case, I'm not near smart enough to make something that can actually be used for orienteering so I am hoping that emit will realize that a real market could develope for an emit brick that reads simple rfid tags attached directly to the controls or hung separately.

@carlch - did you ever get past being in wayyyy over your head and progressed anywhere with the home-brew e-punching?

Nope. The electronic boards are sitting around here somewhere still in their packages.

However, it sounds like sportident will eventually get there. They need to develop a smaller unit to carry around but they are working on the concept. see here:

http://www.sportident.com/images/PDF/1_si_base_pro...

Have a read of the concurrent thread and the post by Thanatomimesis.
http://www.attackpoint.org/discussionthread.jsp/me...