Discussion: World Ranking strategy proposal
in: Orienteering; General
Sep 15, 2006 11:54 PM
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rm:
Here's an idea for maximizing North American country rankings, and probably individual rankings too.
Hold a cross-border week-long event with 4 or more WREs (2 or more by each country), in a place, and with events, likely to attract a lot of people. Focus the WREs on Sprints and Middles with the 35 and 17-19 categories on the same course as the elite (at least for the WREs).
To maximize country ranking, you need lots of people with four ranked events. 20 people with four ranked events is far better than 40 people with two ranked events. Getting the same people at four WREs is hard, hence the above proposal.
If something like this were done, the following seems not unfeasible for the men:
- the top orienteer gets six to eight ranked races (WOC, plus four "local" WREs), with the top four averaging 1000 points.
- the twentieth orienteer gets four races averaging 500 points
- the second through 19th vary linearly between those extremes (maybe linearly isn't right, but doesn't seem horribly wrong)
That yields 60000 country points.
If the women had a harder time getting twenty ranked, maybe they end up with 30000 to 40000...still not bad. But given the many excellent orienteers in the categories 35 and up, I wonder if 20 isn't feasible.
The Aussies seem to have focused their WREs in the populous southeast, mostly at holiday events with multiple WREs, to get a deep field. Or so it looks anyway.
Hold a cross-border week-long event with 4 or more WREs (2 or more by each country), in a place, and with events, likely to attract a lot of people. Focus the WREs on Sprints and Middles with the 35 and 17-19 categories on the same course as the elite (at least for the WREs).
To maximize country ranking, you need lots of people with four ranked events. 20 people with four ranked events is far better than 40 people with two ranked events. Getting the same people at four WREs is hard, hence the above proposal.
If something like this were done, the following seems not unfeasible for the men:
- the top orienteer gets six to eight ranked races (WOC, plus four "local" WREs), with the top four averaging 1000 points.
- the twentieth orienteer gets four races averaging 500 points
- the second through 19th vary linearly between those extremes (maybe linearly isn't right, but doesn't seem horribly wrong)
That yields 60000 country points.
If the women had a harder time getting twenty ranked, maybe they end up with 30000 to 40000...still not bad. But given the many excellent orienteers in the categories 35 and up, I wonder if 20 isn't feasible.
The Aussies seem to have focused their WREs in the populous southeast, mostly at holiday events with multiple WREs, to get a deep field. Or so it looks anyway.
Sep 16, 2006 12:09 AM
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rm:
A few ideas:
- Ontario (or Quebec) and New York (or even New England or Michigan)
- Alberta or BC and Washington/Oregon/Idaho (there have been a few such cross-border events already)
- Manitoba and Minnesota (a bit of a drive, but doable)
- Saskatchewan and Colorado (by air)...not ideally close, but maybe still a trip of interest for enough people
- Atlantic Canada and New Hampshire (a bit of a drive, but doable and with scenic possibilities and fun side hikes or canoes)
- Ontario (or Quebec) and New York (or even New England or Michigan)
- Alberta or BC and Washington/Oregon/Idaho (there have been a few such cross-border events already)
- Manitoba and Minnesota (a bit of a drive, but doable)
- Saskatchewan and Colorado (by air)...not ideally close, but maybe still a trip of interest for enough people
- Atlantic Canada and New Hampshire (a bit of a drive, but doable and with scenic possibilities and fun side hikes or canoes)
Sep 16, 2006 12:13 AM
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James have you ever thought of quitting your day job and being an orienteering promoter?
Maybe you could be in charge of Le Tour d'America or something like that. Sounds awesome!
Maybe you could be in charge of Le Tour d'America or something like that. Sounds awesome!
Sep 16, 2006 12:52 PM
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> The Aussies seem to have focused their WREs in the
> populous southeast, mostly at holiday events with
> multiple WREs, to get a deep field. Or so it looks anyway.
Do you know how many people live in our north west? You don't need many hands to count them all, at the rate of a finger each. Most of our orienteers live in the arc from Adelaide to Brisbane, encompassing Tasmania. That just leaves Perth and a few north of the Brisbane line. That still leaves a lot of travelling, so the world ranking events are necessarily centred around Easter and September school holidays. Every Oz orienteer can basically count on a standing application for a week of leave for easter and for the first week in October each year and every year. The two carnivals are shared around the state associations on rotation. Pity the poor West Australians who have to fly east most of the time. Its their turn this year to host the September carnival.
> populous southeast, mostly at holiday events with
> multiple WREs, to get a deep field. Or so it looks anyway.
Do you know how many people live in our north west? You don't need many hands to count them all, at the rate of a finger each. Most of our orienteers live in the arc from Adelaide to Brisbane, encompassing Tasmania. That just leaves Perth and a few north of the Brisbane line. That still leaves a lot of travelling, so the world ranking events are necessarily centred around Easter and September school holidays. Every Oz orienteer can basically count on a standing application for a week of leave for easter and for the first week in October each year and every year. The two carnivals are shared around the state associations on rotation. Pity the poor West Australians who have to fly east most of the time. Its their turn this year to host the September carnival.
Sep 16, 2006 4:21 PM
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rm:
The situation in Canada and the US is not so concentrated. Canada's situation would be more like having your orienteers fairly evenly spread between five centers the distances of Darwin, Cairns, Canberra, Hobart and Perth, with a few scattered more rurally. The US is more like a third (I'd guess) distributed between Melbourne and Sydney, and the rest distributed unevenly among a dozen other centers far and wide.
In a few weeks, I travel four hours east by plane to the North Americans in central Canada (and some are traveling six). If I had gone to the Canadians, I would have had to make the same trip a month ago. But the Canadians have also frequently been in Manitoba, BC, and the Yukon, 750 to 2000 km from here, or here in Alberta. People often hold up Australia as the land of big distances, but for orienteering travel, since so many live in a 1000km radius in the southeast, it's nothing like Canada, where if we want to get all of our better orienteers, most would have to fly (and most of the rest drive a long way), no matter where we put the event. The USA is more concentrated than Canada, but less so tha Australia. Which is why, for us to get meaningful country ranking points, I suggested a cross-border holiday event that people could fly to once.
In a few weeks, I travel four hours east by plane to the North Americans in central Canada (and some are traveling six). If I had gone to the Canadians, I would have had to make the same trip a month ago. But the Canadians have also frequently been in Manitoba, BC, and the Yukon, 750 to 2000 km from here, or here in Alberta. People often hold up Australia as the land of big distances, but for orienteering travel, since so many live in a 1000km radius in the southeast, it's nothing like Canada, where if we want to get all of our better orienteers, most would have to fly (and most of the rest drive a long way), no matter where we put the event. The USA is more concentrated than Canada, but less so tha Australia. Which is why, for us to get meaningful country ranking points, I suggested a cross-border holiday event that people could fly to once.
Sep 16, 2006 11:03 PM
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rm:
One of my worries is that the WRE scheme will encourage countries to hold WREs only in their most populated areas. Not so bad for countries the size of Estonia, but bad for countries with many 1000's of km of travel, which will be incentivized to neglect orienteering in all but one or two big centers. (WREs spread around will yield lots of runners with one or two rankings, and hence lousy rankings. WREs concentrated in one place yield fewer runners but with more rankings each, and hence better rankings.)
But maybe a cross-border holiday event that rotates around a bunch, and one or two WREs at other events elsewhere, will avoid this trap while still allowing good rankings.
But maybe a cross-border holiday event that rotates around a bunch, and one or two WREs at other events elsewhere, will avoid this trap while still allowing good rankings.
Sep 18, 2006 3:23 AM
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Pam had a great idea as to how we can even things out a little with the Europeans. The rules should specify that at least one of a person's four WRE that counts towards their points MUST be greater than (say) 1500 km from their home.
I like it!
I like it!
Sep 18, 2006 2:49 PM
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rm:
Yes, indeed, it would probably even things out a lot. (Not many Europeans with ranking points from that far away.)
(But within the current system, it may be worthwhile figuring out how to make getting points, in particular getting four ranked runs, more feasible for more people.)
(But within the current system, it may be worthwhile figuring out how to make getting points, in particular getting four ranked runs, more feasible for more people.)
Sep 18, 2006 9:19 PM
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upnorthguy: Pam had a great idea as to how we can even things out a little with the Europeans. The rules should specify that at least one of a person's four WRE that counts towards their points MUST be greater than (say) 1500 km from their home.
I like it!
I sort of like it, although it could certainly be seen as a penalty on dedicated orienteers who have arranged their lives so that they don't have to travel far. It could also be called environmentally unfriendly, since it promotes long-distance travel. Anyway, these considerations are moot, since it's very unlikely that this idea will be implemented by the IOF.
I like it!
I sort of like it, although it could certainly be seen as a penalty on dedicated orienteers who have arranged their lives so that they don't have to travel far. It could also be called environmentally unfriendly, since it promotes long-distance travel. Anyway, these considerations are moot, since it's very unlikely that this idea will be implemented by the IOF.
Sep 18, 2006 9:37 PM
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Alternatively, give a runner 200 bonus points for every WRE that required over 1500km of travel. ;-)
Sep 18, 2006 9:46 PM
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Someday if I'm living in Eastern Canada again, I would love to put on an Orienteering festival in the Eastern Townships of southern Quebec combined with events in Vermont. Those two regions are some of the most untapped in North America for awesome terrain.
I bet you could have 3 events around Sherbrooke and then another couple near Burlington Vermont. The Ethan Allen base at Jericho has great terrain and wide open woods. The map by Rick Oliver looks really pretty, it's just missing most of the detail, but is big enough for a classic.
I bet you could have 3 events around Sherbrooke and then another couple near Burlington Vermont. The Ethan Allen base at Jericho has great terrain and wide open woods. The map by Rick Oliver looks really pretty, it's just missing most of the detail, but is big enough for a classic.
Sep 19, 2006 5:43 PM
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On a practical note, the best opportunity to implement this next year would appear to be US Team Trials. That's held very close to the Canadian border and already has WRE in the making. The Canadians would have to scramble a bit to pull off their end, but I think it could be done.
Sep 19, 2006 7:09 PM
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As far as I know, Canada still plans on doing all three (or perhaps only two, if someone else in Canada has decided they want to do a WRE) of our WREs for 2007 at COCs in July. I have trouble imagining our changing that to hold all of them in close proximity in time and space to the US Team Trials, which is what would be required to make it easier to get a lot of WREs at once than just holding three of them at COCs will.
I think "this" above refers to Jim's suggestion of a cross border orienteering festival as a way of offering lots of WRE bang for the travel and time off buck. If we were really serious about that, perhaps the US would hold one of its WREs in Saskatchewan instead of at the March fundraiser - after all, early in March, people living in southern climes will be orienteering well and people living in the snow belt won't have their terrain legs yet, which isn't necessarily a recipe for high rankings scores (unless, perhaps, the better ranked individuals going in tend to be the ones living in the snowbelt).
I think "this" above refers to Jim's suggestion of a cross border orienteering festival as a way of offering lots of WRE bang for the travel and time off buck. If we were really serious about that, perhaps the US would hold one of its WREs in Saskatchewan instead of at the March fundraiser - after all, early in March, people living in southern climes will be orienteering well and people living in the snow belt won't have their terrain legs yet, which isn't necessarily a recipe for high rankings scores (unless, perhaps, the better ranked individuals going in tend to be the ones living in the snowbelt).
This discussion thread is closed.