Discussion: The audacity of some people...

This idea sparked after reading about bad behavior in my other post, and instead of hijacking it, I thought it might make for an interesting venting exercise...

Without naming names or even events, what are some of the audacious things competitors, newcomers, or oldtimers have done in your presence?

The one I thought up first - A competitor is 45 minutes out of our closed-course time-limit, but not back. (concerned, but not yet alarmed) I head out to pick up three close controls and run into her. She admits to having missed a control and knows it was late, but wanted to get the rest... Aargh...

A lot of competitors think the finish deadline just means they get a DNF or an OT. I used to think that too, because in effect that is all it meant to the meet director. But when I direct meets the finish deadline means I start an initial search and get ready to call for SAR resources.

Finding a police officer waiting at the trailhead to speak to you tends to make a big impression.

I too like the relaxed administrative atmosphere of orienteering meets, but I like it a whole lot more when I know where the boundaries are and that they are real boundaries. I want that relaxed atmosphere to be the result of careful planning, logistics, and operations, not of cluelessness. Sure, send a 7 year old into the woods alone, but if the child is not back in the time allowed then please take immediate action that has been planned in advance.

At the US Classic Champs last month I stopped to help a woman who blew her whistle. She wasn't hurt, or even lost, she was just having trouble finding her control. Before I even had a chance to give her a safety bearing she said, "oh, there it is!" and went off to punch her control. Grr.

An adult competitor on Yellow, rather than going down a couple of contours from a trail to the control, instead proferred the SI stick and asked a couple of passing M12s to do a proxy punching job.

J-J, I love your new username. ;-)

I don't like when newbies yell out "here it is!" They think they're being helpful, but most of us usually want the challenge of finding the controls ourselves...

It's not always the newbies. :-) I've had an older fellow on Brown try to tell me where controls are (he's not very fast).

European orienteers who try to take the map from your hand as you're punching at your (not their) control.

At classic champs a few weeks ago I was shadowing my 9 year-old son on white when an adult appeared from somewhere and wanted me to tell her where she was. I held up my hands and said "I don't know. I don't even have a map." She looked a bit surprised initially, and then turned and asked my son to tell her where she was. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) he had just over-run his control, after having gotten caught up in racing another youngster and was at that point trying to relocate himself. Poor woman got nothing useful from either of us. But she did give me the opportunity to offer some advice to my son about how to handle such folks. ;-)

It's hard for me to get annoyed at newbies and other individuals for "misbehaving." After all, this is a somewhat quirky sport...all of us silently running through the woods in pajamas, while gripping little plastic dials. I don't blame people if they fail to understand our ways, or have the audacity to ask a question as we run by.

No...the audacity I'm amazed at seeing is displayed by local meet directors and club officers, who take charge of a responsibility, and fail to do even the minimal amount of work needed to make it a success: organizing, phoning, vetting, recruiting, planning....

C'mon meet and club officials...dozens, maybe hundreds, of people have given up their Sunday, and spent a lot of money, coming to your club event. Don't ruin their day because of your laziness or carelessness. If you're not going to put in the work necessary to present the best possible event, then please, don't take the job.

Meet directors and club officers all start as newbies in those roles. When I directed my first meet, I had a fairly good idea what to do on meet day but zero idea what to do before or after. I am still learning.

Lack of learning is usually the fault of lack of teaching. Are there clubs that actually assign new meet directors, course setters, vetters, etc and then toss them in to the deep end of the pool without adequate preparation for their task?

Some may not find this audacious behavior but it was probably a good reason for being over the time limit. A meet director in Quebec back in the 1970's reported that he had had one couple overdue on a beginner course. He searched for them as he picked up some controls. He spotted them on a sunny knoll in the act of coitus. He was able to beat a retreat without interruptus.
On their return to the finish they reported how much they enjoyed the orienteering. (for orienteering courses lasting more than three hours please consult your doctor immediately)

I've seen a US Team member cut thru olive-mapped flower gardens at a team trials event when it was repeatedly stressed in both the meet notes and at the start that olive-mapped areas were out of bounds.

I've seen a very experienced Mid Atlantic orienteer punch controls out of order when it was an advantage to do so (in the pre e-punch days, obviously).

I've seen dozens of people climbing native American earthworks at a midwest venue when it was repeatedly stressed as part of the deal with the park that climbing the earthworks was prohibited (and people like me losing tons of time by going around).

I remember an event out west where someone was caught taking controls out of order by a manned control. Only time I've ever seen a control described as manned actually manned. With e-punching it is another moot point, but everyone knew in those days that the manned control was usually a bluff.

And as alluded to earlier, in Europe and Australia, other competitors have routinely rudely gotten in my face asking me to relocate them. That is one area where North American orienteering is ahead of the rest of the world.

If there is any advantage in crossing out-of-bounds areas, then the course design is poor.

Hahaha, It's like deja vu all over again with these resurrected topics.

@chitownclark: From my reading of this discussion, the large majority of the incidents described do NOT involve newbies.

The topic is audacity, which comes into play only when the person behaving badly knows they are behaving badly. So, by definition, not newbies.

Spott Fjord, evil masterSmind, stole my gloves during a training run. That took some cajones, to be sure.

...in Europe and Australia, other competitors have routinely rudely gotten in my face asking me to relocate them.

Australians, shy and self-effacing as they are, probably won't object to this slur. I have competed widely in Australia and have never seen or even heard of Australians doing this.

Sadly, I have experienced it in Scandinavia (of all places!) I think a better statement might be that "this is one area where the new orienteering world is ahead of the old orienteering world."

I feel the need to rant about ranting...

Today in the carpark at Hickory Run, one of the gentlemen traveling in a minivan bearing the license plate "OCIN" was going on and on in a loud voice and with the rudest of language, about how bad he felt the course-setting was. I was glad my kids and their friends had just left and weren't around to witness this. I would have left myself, but was in the middle of changing out of my wet clothes.

Another time, a year or two ago, I was shadowing my daughter, who was 7 or 8 at the time, on a white course, and a gentleman who started on another course at the same time ran the first couple of hundred meters right behind us, cursing loudly the whole time about anything and everything. Later my daughter asked me what some of the words he used meant. :-(

In some sports you are penalized or even ejected from the game for this behavior.

Orienteering is one of the best family sports going, but it seems that like anywhere else there are still a few individuals bent on making a nuisance of themselves and spoiling someone else's day.

Australians, shy and self-effacing as they are, probably won't object to this slur.

I do indeed object to being called shy and/or self-effacing.

"there are still a few individuals bent on making a nuisance of themselves and spoiling someone else's day"

Are you sure they are not just stressed about ruining their own day? I very much doubt these people swear in order to spoil your day out...

I'd object to being called shy and self-effacing, if I could just get the courage to do so.

I believe Kennett passed legislating barring Victorians from being shy or self-effacing in 1991. The penalty is 6 months jail or banishment to South Australia.

Well it must have been another OCIN member than the one I know because the one I know reports in a different threat "Fun event! Great courses! Hickory Run ROCKS"

One incident that is somewhat similar to the one ccsteve described is the following:

At a local meet, we had specified a time when the courses would close and the controls would be picked up, and therefore that people needed to be back by that time. The course closing time arrived, and there was still a person who hadn't returned. We sent out the control-picker-uppers, to both retrieve the controls and to be on the lookout for the overdue person.

The person finally arrived back at the start/finish, and was miffed because some of his/her controls were gone. When reminded of the course closing/control pickup time, he/she said that he/she was aware of the time, and knew it was past, but figured that the controls on his/her course would be picked up in numerical order, so that the last ones would still be around, even though it was past the course closing time. He/she was actually quite indignant about the whole matter. (And this was certainly not a newbie.)

Among my opinions about overtime reform is that at the course closing time (however that is determined) the first thing that should be done is the removal of the last control. This should be well publicized. At that point, anyone who is not back yet is DNF, because it becomes impossible to complete the course. This is to deal with the issue of people who appear to feel that completing the course overtime is more honorable than being DNF.

Hey Randy were the competitirs that got in your face in Australia actually Europeans over here for the same event as you?

I have orienteered here for 32 years and have had no one "rudely in my face" asking where they are.

To be serious, I have never experienced the 'map grab' here (Australia) despite competing in 700-800 events. In contrast, I have run in only 10 orienteering events in Europe and experienced the 'map grab' routine twice. I'm pretty confident your experience was with a visitor. I heard a few such stories from the WMOC final at Kooyoora. Being a helper, I didn't get the chance of the experience on home soil.
There is widespread disapproval of such behaviour here, and like the USA and Canada, our scene is small so there is no such thing as anonymity, unlike an event such as O-Ringen. Word would spread very fast.

I filed a protest once against a map-grabber in an international event in Europe, but they denied it and the protest was dismissed for lack of evidence.

I like the suggestion to remove the last control from the course at deadline time, provided the last control is so near the finish that getting there won't be a problem for anyone.

When someone is overdue I leave the controls up on their course, in case the overdue person is still trying to navigate the course and needs the reassurance. Also, to help searchers navigate the course!

On one trail race I worked, a slow competitor went off trail for a comfort stop and when she returned to the trail the race markers had been pulled (contrary to instructions) by a volunteer who thought this would be helpful. The competitor was very confused and anxious about possibly being on the wrong trail.

regarding "map grabbing"...

i'm just curious - do people actually run by your control, not theirs, while you're punching, randomly take the map away from you, and run away?! even if you're not on their course? why would someone do that?

Someone is lost. Finds a control not on their course, so waits there for someone to arrive who is looking for that control. They can then grab the map off the new arrival arrival and look at the control placement on the grabbed map as a form of relocation. The map is then relinquished.
Of course, there is a trade-off between waiting time and the time to relocate by traditional means. The larger the event, the shorter the wait, and so grabbing is a more efficient option. In events in low participation nations such as the US and Australia, the wait might be much longer, so the return for grabbing is less reliable. So it may not be that the non-Europeans are fairer by nature, but rather have never had the strong incentive to try the tactic.
From limited experience (Takas and O-Ringen), in a big European event, if you see someone standing by the control you are about to punch, you can assume the grab is on. The counter skill is the very very quick punch keeping the map on the opposite side of your body to the competitor. If that fails due to a body shift by the grabber, you have to choose to stop and reward the grabber, or have a tug-of-war. I gained the impression that latter this response was seen as ungentlemanly. So be it. It's what i did. The thing that really pissed me off was that the grabber was an elite female and she clearly thought that my time as a then M50 was unimportant.

I have very extensive experience of orienteering in Europe, many hundreds of A-meets, 14 O-Ringen and much more. To say something like "if you see someone standing by the control you are about to punch, you can assume the grab is on" is a ridiculous exaggeration!

Told you I was inexperienced, but I think twice in ten races is high by my standards. Maybe I invited it? Maybe I look even more uncompetitive than I know myself to be. Maybe I look friendlier than I really am? As I said, no-one has ever done it at home. I put crying juniors in an entirely different category.

I've only really heard about map grabbing at WMOC and I think some bigger multi-days, never in the UK If someone tried that stunt on me they'd get a proper smack in the face, maybe even take their SI card, leg it then chuck it.

In such overt violations of racer etiquette, I think more rigorous means than a tug-o-war are needed. Should anyone try to grab my map at such races, I will physically prevent them from taking it, whether by forcing their arm away or punching them in the face. Perhaps I should make some O-shirts that have a raised fist on them to warn competitors not to take my map.

It seems reasonable that if you violate the racing contract to race independently, and in particular violate a fellow competitor by taking their map, you surrender the right to not be punched in the face. It would also provide more evidence for after event protests.

First day of O-Ringen 1983 (M-16A). 4th or 5th control and I got my map grabbed by some scary lookin' dude. He quickly yells out in 4 or 5 languages "where are we". I grab the map back and yell "In the *&^*^* woods". I then proceed to make 10 minutes of mistakes that day and place 144th. After the full 5 days? 15th overall (13 minutes back of winner).

"In the *&^*^* woods"
That's great!! I'll have to remember that one. While running in a West Point A meet, a rather large man demanded I tell him where we were as I punched my control. It freaked me out a bit because he was yelling and trying to get close to me, reaching for my map. I kept trying to move away from him and finally yelled "Get away from me!". Fortunately he ran off in a huff. Having said that, as a newbie, I did ask for help when lost a few times, but at least I didn't act like I was about to assault someone!

The other thing about map grabbing is it happens more when there are likely to be language barriers. I have had it done to me once, when I was about 12 at a Scottish 6 day, by a guy who looked Finnish. He was definitely not British anyway! It doesn't happen a lot but they do tend to prey on the weak looking!

In the early days of the 1000-day there were some competitors who routinely came in long, long after the time limit. We generally tried to get them out early in the day. At the time our finish procedure was good, but our start procedure was developing, and we didn't always have a complete starters list to compare to the finishers so we could see who was still out.

One day we thought everybody was back at Manitou lake, and repaired back to Lake George to print out results, etc. After a while we decided that one of the repeat OT offenders hadn't showed up, so we hied back to Manitou to see what was going on and figure out if we needed to look for her. After a bit she came strolling in (in Tevas), oblivious to what had occurred, and about 4 hours OT.

I think we have tried to keep the dates of the 1000 day secret from her since.

I just counted 22 days of courses that I have run in Europe and have experienced 3 map grabs. As with hammer the the worst part was not the cheating but the disruption of concentration in complex areas of the map.

The most memorable incident was at the 2008 O-Ringen when I refused to give up my map and was loudly insulted in broken English. I continued to hear the insults directed at me at least 10 seconds after I left the control. (After that I guess he finally found his next victim.)

At the Estonian 4-day a few years ago, an orienteer nearby shouted something in Estonian or Finnish, apparently asking for help. Flustered, I hollered back "I speak English". Only later did I realize that "I" sounds almost identical to the Estonian word for "NO!" So I guess I told her!

My most memorable encounter with a map grabber was in the US west where wide open spaces would lead you to believe people could relocate all by themselves if they tried. I saw the fellow(!) wanted to look at my map but I held it close and tight and punched at the control. [This was my second encounter with a map grabber, so I was prepared.] I managed to get away unscathed and stay mostly focused afterward.

My worst encounter was not during an event but the day before an event I directed. I was checking out a course when I ran into a couple of people on bikes. One man - a European - realized I was orienteering and "asked" to look at the map. I told him no as it had the next day's courses on it. He then got aggressive, demanded the map and tried to grab it. I yelled at him and took off. The next day, when he showed up to the event, I found out he was an experienced (as in, should have known better!) orienteer from a neighboring club!

In my 40+ years of orienteering in Sweden - where the woods obviously are full of notorious map-grabbers - I can´t remember EVER being attacked by one! Our experiences are obviously very differing.

Yes, the occasional question "Where am I?" has been asked - very rare though - but never followed by anything that would be defined as physical map-grabbing.

The map is then relinquished.

I believe the accepted protocol for "relinquishing" the map is to throw it on the ground while running away. (In my one map-grab experience, in Switzerland, I held on tight and the grabber failed to get the map away from me.)

I actually think that I hate being followed even more than to have my map grabbed.
In a World Cup in Norway I got followed by a woman (God only knows why 'cause I was slow as molasses) for over 25 minutes. Finally a faster woman went by and she jumped on that train. It was EXTREMELY hard not to let this woman affect my concentration - that's for sure!

Apart from people yelling numbers in Finnish at Jukola, and the occasional "is it over there" nobody ever stopped me either, except for when I'm wandering round either as planner/controller or shadowing young children. Then it happens most of the time.

Well it must have been another OCIN member than the one I know because the one I know reports in a different threat "Fun event! Great courses! Hickory Run ROCKS"

No, it was of course not him. We all know he would not do this.

And in fact, it has been brought to my attention that it was not even an OCIN member at all. Just someone from a neighboring club along for the ride.

There was an incident at O-Ringen in 2000 where someone who was leading a class after three days (one of the H50 classes if I recall correctly) made a big mistake early on day 4 and decided to relocate one of the controls in the hope of getting the course voided. I believe the offender received a fairly substantial (and well-deserved) ban for his trouble.

Have had the map grab attempt in Europe a couple of times. The first time pleaded ignorance and took off. The second time the person was a little more aggressive, but a few "expletives" and a potential shoulder barge out of the way and he backed off.
I have stopped and helped some people who were totally distressed and had been lost for a while. This happened to me at the US Champs in Wisconsin last year. I then lost my concentration and blew the next control by 8 mins! Frustrating, but life moves on.

Are you sure they are not just stressed about ruining their own day? I very much doubt these people swear in order to spoil your day out...

I suspect you're right. My conclusion was probably faulty. I think it's more likely a case of Ugly Americanism right here at home.

I've attended only one international event, WMOC '05. My may was grabbed twice by non-English speakers. I wish I could have blamed my very depressing DNFs on the map grabbing.

The map grab thing happened to my wife at Oringen. When she told me about it, I was kind of hoping that it would happen to me, because I would have enjoyed knocking them down to take *their* map.

yeah a former Canadian Jr. Team member (80's) who also played hockey was kinda hoping a Swede would try that stunt on him because he said he would have knocked the Swede down so hard with an elbow and body check he would never do it again.

I think the cure would be worse than the disease. Carry a spare map from another event and let them keep it.

I think the cure would be worse than the disease. Carry a spare map from another event and let them keep it.

Legend idea!

A looong time ago we waited for one last runner to come back from the forest at a big national event. I then asked one of his clubmates if they knew anything about him, and apparently nobody hade seen him at the site. We then called him at home (time before cellphones) and he answered from his sickbed. Had not been out all day. So we reasoned that we had made an error at the start and lost the punchcard somewhere. We closed the event, tore down the event centre and were already started to leave. Then one injured orienteer emerged from the forest, bloody and limping... He somehow knew his friend was sick and jumped at the opportunity to run a race "for free", without telling anyone...

And then we have, every few years, those that get lost, abandon the race and head straigth for the car and home, without telling anyone.... Usually people that do not organize events...

Legend idea + 1

Kinda reminds me of the travel tip for areas of high pick-pocketing and stick-ups...

Carry your real wallet and hide it, but carry another wallet, full of small bills of an almost worthless currency, and those fake or credit card thingies you get in the mail.

I was accosted by a Japanese runner during APOC 2000 - map grabbed, perused, handed back THEN he bowed and ran off. Gotta love those traditions!

Magic moment!

haha that's awesome.

i was laughing for a good 5 minutes picturing all these situations... it's just hard to believe. The re-location thing makes sense. My other version was, if the person sees you're not from his club, he takes your map and randomly runs away with it to indirectly benefit his country/club, by taking out one of the competitors hahah. But either one is funny stuff.

I had two similar, non aggressive enounters in the great butterfly section of this year's WOC Long Final terrain. On the day-after I was walking the WOC controls when a polite D~18 asks me where we are, and without thinking, I showed her. After she left, it dawned on me, that she was part of the semi-elite(?) Craft Cup competition so she was no helpless recreational orienteer. Shortly after another D~18 pulls the same thing, to which I conveniently replied I didn't know, which was half true at the time. I'm not proud of either response, but I wasn't prepared, even though I know this goes on. Had there been another encounter after that, especially by an older male, I may have been ready for a firmer, albeit double standard, response. Then again this response might have ruined my fine tour in the woods, but I would gladly contribute to the legal defense fund for anybody who gives them what they deserve, as mentioned above.

Back to time limits. When I was helping pick up controls at the CSU/NEOC meet last month I had some time constraints, and wanted to get going. The organizers seemed apprehensive that I wanted to start picking controls when there were people still out on the courses (regardless of whether or not the time limit was approaching). The West Coast procedure is typically to start organizing early enough that the control-picker-uppers are at the most remote control they are responsible for when the time limit is reached. I don't have enough CPU experience to know whether there's an East/West culture difference at work here.

I like to get started picking up controls early, too, but I once made the mistake of picking up too early, and picked up some controls before the last people had gotten through. I still feel very badly about that; it was entirely my fault.

As someone who has coordinated control pick-up at several A-meets (all on the East "coast"), we have always used the rule that NO controls may be picked up until the course closes, but that the crew can leave for the woods at any time. The "trick" of going to the most remote location and waiting for the course closure is one that we have used more than once.

One situation that I have encountered is that the starters have let someone start after the official last start time, and then they somehow feel that this person should be given some extra allowance at the finish. I think that's silly, but I guess there might be a concern about disadvantaging start crew volunteers etc.

We also pick up no controls before the courses close. Also, if someone is overdue we pick up no controls on that person's course until after the overdue person is located.

So if the person was not found, you would leave the controls in the woods? (Edit: or desert)

Leaving controls in the woods is something we discussed at search and rescue training a couple weeks ago. The benefit of leaving them is that if the person is still mobile, he/she may be attracted to one and then wait at a control. Additionally, you do not want to remove or obscure clues which might have been left at a control site. For example, a jacket left at a control, if determined to be the lost person's, could be a scent article for search dogs. But the scent is ruined if you handle it. For events using electronic punching, we discussed / suggested recovering the control boxes to determine the last control point and time vistited by the lost person, but leaving the actual controls as a potential attractant to which the person might be enticed.

So if the person was not found, you would leave the controls in the woods?

Yes, absolutely.

Orienteers know the control points will be visited, so if injured they may try to go to one. It is extremely disconcerting to go to a control point and not see the control there. This can disorient the orienteer. On a SAR for an overdue person, one of the first tasks we do is a hasty (quick) search of likely routes. The overdue orienteer's course will be hasty searched at least once. The searchers will need the controls to remain in place to help them navigate the course and be sure that they have in fact searched each control point.

Another important task in SAR is attraction. Often this means blowing a whistle, honking a car horn, or flashing a light at night. Controls provide some attraction, so in some cases I would want to leave all controls in the woods until all orienteers are accounted for. Sometimes beginners run searching for controls and punching any they see.

I understand the arguments for this approach. However, I think that in practice it is much more likely that the CPU staff will find a lost person and be able to direct them towards the finish. (As opposed to the worst case you describe of the CPU activity leading to the lost person getting even more lost.)

I think it is important to be clear that until the overdue person is located, you don't know if you are dealing with a best case or a worst case. Is the overdue person just disregarding the deadline (or uninformed?), lost, stuck on a ledge or in a hole, or suffering a medical emergency?

Usually it turns out to be a best case: the overdue person turns up on their own, they were never lost and they are not injured. But which case is more important and urgent? Which should you plan for? Best case, or worse case? I expect the best but plan and act for the worst.

The problem is that there is a big gap in efficiency between planning for the best and worst case, and the worst case is unlikely to happen.

Sure, but if everyone meets the deadline there is no problem and controls can be picked immediately. Pre-deployed pickers makes complete sense at a big meet. If someone is overdue at a big meet, I would be very concerned because the worst case is rather likely.

The single most useful action a meet director can take to distinguish best from worst cases is to be a consistent hardass about the finish deadline. If the overdue person knows the finish deadline has teeth, then the likelihood of a medical emergency is high.

One situation that I have encountered is that the starters have let someone start after the official last start time, and then they somehow feel that this person should be given some extra allowance at the finish

Most commonly, these late starters are the start crew themselves.

If the overdue person knows the finish deadline has teeth

The deadline has no teeth that I have ever been aware of. I've seen a "usual suspect" stay out looking for controls after he knew the deadline had passed and ultimately be located by someone picking up controls. When he arrived at the finish, he was met with a posse of very perturbed meet workers, one of whom screamed obscenities at him. No impact.

I've suggested a manner of reforming the overtime system that would have teeth (someone out after the deadline would, at the meet director's discretion, be moved down to an easier/shorter course at the next meet, among other things), but after making an informal opinion survey, I decided that it wasn't worth the political effort to try and get it adopted.

"The map grab thing happened to my wife at Oringen. When she told me about it, I was kind of hoping that it would happen to me, because I would have enjoyed knocking them down to take *their* map."


yeah, because it is right to use violence in situations like these.
totally acceptable. you sleep with a handgun under your pillow as well?

In America, everyone sleeps with a handgun under the pillow.

...soon to be mandatory, once our newly-elected Congress takes office. BTW, got any Norwegian oil you could sell us?

very perturbed meet workers, one of whom screamed obscenities

People do that when they feel they must do something but don't know what to do.

I also get how the overdue orienteer dismissed them all, and their concern too. I would not be responsive to screamed obscenities.

@chitownclark.
ah, like basil marceaux.com?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hvaeHllwtw
heard he was endorsed by Stephen Colbert. How about that?

I'm not familiar with the particular episode that led to screamed obscenities (nor do I know who the person was), but I strongly suspect that screaming obscenities was used only after this person failed to respond to much gentler approaches, multiple times in the past.

...heard he was endorsed by Stephen Colbert...

Ah yes...Basil Marceaux. And also endorsed by every criminal and overtime orienteer in TN, with his official campaign website on freesitenow.com stating:

"VOTE FOR ME AND IF I WIN I WILL IMMUNE YOU FROM ALL STATE CRIMES FOR THE REST OF YOU LIFE!"

I strongly suspect that screaming obscenities was used only after this person failed to respond to much gentler approaches, multiple times in the past.

Yup. (And the screamer was admonished by the rest of the crew on hand for being unhelpful.)

Why let a repeat violator of the finish deadline continue to run on long advanced courses? Evidently this person is not up to it.

Short advanced course, in this case.

He (?) doesn't belong on any advanced course, then. Tell him he has to go back to a level he can finish in the allowed time.

I'm on the other side of the world. Is this Basil guy a comedian or real. If the real, then does he have a comic shadow like Ms Palin?

As I noted, I've explored the idea of adopting a policy where meet directors would have the discretion to restrict overtime people to shorter/easier courses, but I decided that the political complications of implementing it were more than I was interested in dealing with.

One issue, by the way, involves competent older orienteers who sometimes like to go out on elite courses, which they can successfully complete, but in more than three hours. My position is that I'd like to accommodate such people, at the meet director's discretion, by assigning them early start times such that they can still comfortably finish before the overall course closing time. This is one of the points that's controversial.

(The chronically overtime person in question has, with advancing age, moved to easier courses.)

Well as an "older orienteer" I don't believe that we should make special accommodations for the aged. The aged need to accept the realities of their oncoming infirmities, and move on to less-physical sports where they can still be competitive and discover new horizons.

Why should an entire well-meaning meet staff be inconvenienced trying to help one old guy, essentially go for a slow walk in the woods? Can't he do that on his own time? After years of O, can't he tell when he's correctly reached a control feature, whether there's a bag on it or not?

I suggest walking golf, age-group running or skiing races, or even geocaching as possible replacement activities for older orienteers.

I helped set courses at VWC'97 up in Camp Ripley. We set courses all the way up to H-90, which was essentially a very short course along the trail, directly from the start to the finish areas. A couple old guys had actually flown all the way from northern Europe to "compete." While it was interesting to see such dedication, I certainly intend to have moved on to some other sport long before I reach 90...for all our sake!

Get over it Clark... we're all feeling our infirmities.
Drop that golf bag and get out to Swallow Cliff today. If memory serves, you've been to one local meet in 3 years.
Call me or Carl and we'll swing by and get you today.
Seriously, let's enjoy the fall day doing our favorite sport.
C'mon my prodigal son.

As meet director I always try to get slow runners started as early as possible, so they have more time before the deadline. And I allow late starts to certain fast runners.

At our next meet we're having a lot of first-timers, some who want to do advanced courses. I am requiring them to first do a Yellow course. Depending how fast they finish, how they answer certain questions in a debrief after that course, and the weather forecast, I may allow them on Green or Red. Else they will have to settle for Orange.

Okay, so it appears that in orienteering audacity is reflected principally in two behaviors: grabbing other people's maps and disrespecting the finish deadline.

At least among people who read Attackpoint, a small subset of all US (and international orienteers). Unscientific survey.

The gentleman obliquely referenced throughout this thread is a case study in audacity, but his transgressions transcend orienteering, per se.

@theinvisiblelog
Basil is pretty damn real. He ran in the primaries for republican candidate for governor of Tennessee. There is a lot of clips from stephen colbert, but only one i found on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdYC2wL4ylA
there is more from colbert´s site, and i remember his first scetch with basil marcaux he had problems holding his laughter in. pretty funny.

Una: "...be a consistent hardass about the finish deadline."

In North America, is the finish deadline a time of day, or is it a time out on the course measured from each orienteer's start? From the point of view of getting respect for a deadline, the "time of day" approach mostly affects the later starters. If you want to use a time limit to change behaviour, you should apply the same limit to each orienteer, and DNF any who are over time.

There are issues of fairness in this too.

Most club events have a start window and you are free to choose your own start time within that. If you choose to start late, and risk being out when course closes, I think you live with your choice.

And yes, I enjoyed that Colbert clip. He did have great material to work with though!

After years of O, can't he tell when he's correctly reached a control feature, whether there's a bag on it or not?

Sadly, the number of years of orienteering does not always equal improving navigation ability. Some folk just have more time to perfect the same navigational inaccuracies as they always have!

Well as an "older orienteer" I don't believe that we should make special accommodations for the aged.

It has nothing to do with age specifically, that's just an example (although it may be the most likely circumstance). My proposal had four parts:

1) Rather than a time limit of 3 hours (or whatever) at an A-meet, there would just be a course closing time that's 3 hours (or whatever) after the last start.
2) A competitor who wants to do a course that may take him more than three hours may request a start time in the earlier part of the start window, and a reasonable attempt should be made to accomodate the request.
3) At course closing time, the last control is removed, and anyone who has not yet returned is DNF.
4) Anyone who has not returned by the course closing time may, at the discretion of the meet director of the meet or the following meet, be required to move down to a shorter/easier course.

There were some objections to this proposal, some of which had a little bit of merit, and others which were in my opinion just nuts, and I didn't feel like arguing the issues. However, in my opinion, the current system is completely broken, does nothing to motivate people to stop orienteering and return within the time limit, and in some cases encourages them to stay out there and keep plugging away.

@jjcote: when you are meet director just do it. If it is good, other meet directors will follow.

We have a finish deadline that is X hours after the starts close. Our start window usually is 10am to noon and X usually is 2 hours, so the finish deadline is 2pm. Thus, everyone has at least 2 hours to finish and early birds have 4 hours. Our slower orienteers who do advanced courses tend to arrive at the meet in time to start very soon after 10am.

I'm referring to the USOF Orienteering USA Rules, i.e., what happens at A-meets. I had a particular concern because I used to be in charge of finish/results at A-meets on a regular basis, but as I've basically retired from that, I don't care as much any more.

DON'T shout, "i found it, billy! it's over here!"
DON'T ak me, "are you looking for number 120?"
DON'T yell, "where are we?" (unless you are REALLY lost).
if you MUST say anything, just say, "hi" & keep moving!